M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

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3DB
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M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 9:05 am

Morning all,

After a very long hiatus on work to my car, I have acquired a rebuilt Euro-spec M-series IP with ALDA from a turbodiesel in the hope of improving the performance of my after market turbo fitted to my naturally aspirated engine.

I thought the swap would be pretty straightforward, but I have come up against 2 issues that I was hoping for some advice on:
  • My old NA MW-pump has an oil feed into the side of it. I cannot see a similar feed for the new M-pump. How is the camshaft lubricated on the new pump?
  • My old MW lift pump has a 3-bolt mounting pattern, but the new unit is 2 bolt. I inherited a spare N/A IP with the car that had a 2-bolt lift pump on and it seems like it would work, but the fuel outlet port is much bigger (22mm) on the 2-bolt unit than the 3-bolt so it is kind of useless without either a complete outlet assembly to the hose or some sort of adapter. Any ideas on where I might find such a piece? I feel I should probably just get a complete new lift pump that will connect straight to the flexible hose as I am not sure if the lift pump I have even works. One other thought that occurred to me (tell me if I'm wrong here) is that I could possibly temporarily get away without the lift pump by installing one of the in-line electric Facet-style pumps to do the lift work as the new pump came with a metal blanking plate over the access port to the cam?
As always, any thought for comments appreciated.
1 Old NA MW pump 1.JPG
2 New M pump next to old MW pump.JPG
3 Old NA MW lift pump 1.JPG
4 New lift pump 1.JPG
5 17mm thread to flexi hose.JPG
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3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by tsharkey » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 3:04 pm

Hi - Will be interested to hear how the ALDA goes.

1. There is no oil line on the latter IP so I presume it gets feed oil from what goes around in the engine
2. You will also need new fuel lines from a latter OM617 to the Injectors from the IP as it is in a different position
3. As long as the electric pump has enough pressure to feed the IP, you should be OK.

Pity - there have been 2 later 300D as the self server wreckers down here in the last 6 months that would have had all you need. Note sure if I have a set of lines, give me a shout if you get stuck.
W123 1981 300TD - Family Kid mover
W202 1998 C250D Factory OM605A Turbo - Partner's daily driver
W123 1982 300CD Retro fitted OM617A Turbo - Mine
W123 1984 300TD 5 Speed Manual, to teach the kids how to drive
W123 1982 300TD Factory OM617A Turbo (Hans) - Project
W123 1985 230TE - Brother's
W123 1985 300D - Sister in Law's
1962 S-Series Valiant (Tho Daimler & Chrysler divorced, still part of the extended family)

Past benzes
W114 1969 250CE - PO put in an M110 transplant and nearly sent me around the bend
W123 1981 300TD - "Matilda" - RIP hit front side & rear but left my brother + niece A-OK

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Coupe restoration, Turbo Wagon freshen up

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 6:22 pm

I swear you need to get pumps, lines, injectors, prechambers, relays/hazard switches from all these w123's that seem to turn up in VIC. There's none here in QLD :'(

tsharkey
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by tsharkey » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 8:10 pm

Qld just seems to be riddled with manual transmissions, pedal boxes and other conversion items
W123 1981 300TD - Family Kid mover
W202 1998 C250D Factory OM605A Turbo - Partner's daily driver
W123 1982 300CD Retro fitted OM617A Turbo - Mine
W123 1984 300TD 5 Speed Manual, to teach the kids how to drive
W123 1982 300TD Factory OM617A Turbo (Hans) - Project
W123 1985 230TE - Brother's
W123 1985 300D - Sister in Law's
1962 S-Series Valiant (Tho Daimler & Chrysler divorced, still part of the extended family)

Past benzes
W114 1969 250CE - PO put in an M110 transplant and nearly sent me around the bend
W123 1981 300TD - "Matilda" - RIP hit front side & rear but left my brother + niece A-OK

Current Projects
Coupe restoration, Turbo Wagon freshen up

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3DB
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 8:24 pm

tsharkey wrote:
Sun 16 Sep, 2018 3:04 pm
1. There is no oil line on the latter IP so I presume it gets feed oil from what goes around in the engine
2. You will also need new fuel lines from a latter OM617 to the Injectors from the IP as it is in a different position
Thanks for confirming, Tim.

I had wondered about the hard lines. I put the two pumps side-by-side and it looked like the positioning was the same, but the height of the outlet was slightly lower (<10mm) on the M-pump. I figured I could 'stretch' the existing ones to mate up. But I might not need to as I checked my big box of spares today and found a complete set, which I assume go with the other NA M-pump I have that the 2-bolt lift pump came from. Fingers crossed on that one. I almost had everything I need apart from that larger outlet from the lift pump....

If anyone out there has a complete 2-bolt lift pump they'd be willing to part with for a fair price, please let me know!
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by John Green » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 9:33 pm

Ahhh, now I know why you need the lift pump. :Doh:

That looks like one of Gorans super pumps? If so you will need a lot of boost to keep up with the fuel.
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Mon 17 Sep, 2018 7:19 am

John Green wrote:
Sun 16 Sep, 2018 9:33 pm
Ahhh, now I know why you need the lift pump. :Doh:

That looks like one of Gorans super pumps? If so you will need a lot of boost to keep up with the fuel.
Well spotted, John. Yes it is a Dieselmeken pump with 7.5mm elements. I thought 8.5mm was probably a bridge too far.

I think my turbo will provide up to 22 PSI, but I hope I don't need that much to match the fuel. I have an EGT gauge before the turbo so that will help me drive it conservatively. I also have water+methanol injection, which should also help keep it cool.
Last edited by 3DB on Mon 17 Sep, 2018 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Mon 17 Sep, 2018 8:41 am

Can anyone elaborate a bit more on how the M-pump gets its oil without an oil feed?

I assume I'll need to fill it up with oil until it drains out the front cover before installing?

Then does the bottom reservoir just get splash-filled from the timing chain?

In addition to the camshaft in the bottom, which I assume is just splash lubed from the reservoir in the bottom, isn't there also the governor mechanism up a bit higher in the back that needs oil? Is there a built-in pump that lifts oil up from the bottom reservoir to this?
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Mon 17 Sep, 2018 9:54 am

i believe the M pump is lubricated by the engines oil coupled with the fuel that goes through it.

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Mon 17 Sep, 2018 10:01 am

Found this which may be helpful for you 3DB :)

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/sho ... p?tid=6882


hello ,
1: u take the old pump out, before u set the engine at 24ºBTDC. cylinder one in the way to combustion time.
2: with the pump there will be a gear with a missing tooth, and ring that will slide on top that gear like a glove. inspect that ...
3: Tap the MW oil feed pump, at the engine block. fill the M pump with engine oil new engine oil. both the governor housing and the cam housing.
4: the missing tooth in the pump gear should align with a mark in the pump body.
5: slide the pump in the engine, everithing should be done by hand, make sure it bolts right and can be done smoth.
6: turn the engine 720º make sure nothing is touching, or outsider the right place.
7:conect the fuel lines as the MW, install the hard lines , the old ones should be good but they need to be reshaped, carefull when reshaping them.
8: fire the engine with assistance, watch for a runway engine,
9:fine tune the timing, by listening or using a timing gun, if a timing gun is used at OT at crankshaft, the device should read 16, to 17.5.
PS: pump twards the engine advances
10: after 500km search for the presence of black oil inside the pump. if oil is not black, something is bad in the autolub circuit. fill the pump periodically.

good luck with it.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Mon 17 Sep, 2018 12:25 pm

3DB wrote:
Sun 16 Sep, 2018 8:24 pm
tsharkey wrote:
Sun 16 Sep, 2018 3:04 pm


If anyone out there has a complete 2-bolt lift pump they'd be willing to part with for a fair price, please let me know!

I may be able to help you out :)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 6:38 am

That is a nice little explainer - I was on the right track with all but the oiling procedure. Thanks, Math.
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by John Green » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:45 am

3DB wrote:
Mon 17 Sep, 2018 7:19 am
Well spotted, John. Yes it is a Dieselmeken pump with 7.5mm elements. I thought 8.5mm was probably a bridge too far.

I think my turbo will provide up to 22 PSI, but I hope I don't need that much to match the fuel. I have an EGT gauge before the turbo so that will help me drive it conservatively. I also have water+methanol injection, which should also help keep it cool.
Quick, put it together and then drive it down to Canberra on Sunday to show it off. :dance: :dance: :dance:
Inaugural OZBENZ national meet this September, all welcome to attend. https://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=25165

M.B Spares & Service 14-16 Lyell St, Fyshwick ACT. Ph 02 6239 1099

http://mbspares.com.au - Supporting Australia's Mercedes-Benz Enthusiasts.

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 12:57 pm


mathuisella
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Wed 19 Sep, 2018 1:36 am

tsharkey wrote:
Sun 16 Sep, 2018 8:10 pm
Qld just seems to be riddled with manual transmissions, pedal boxes and other conversion items
haha, i just got super lucky and prayed to the car gods :P :notworthy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZNRnNL4r5I

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Wed 19 Sep, 2018 11:13 am

I also looked at DieselpumpUK and although their pumps look a hell of a lot cooler with all of the anodised accessories, they are considerably more expensive. I'm sure their after-sales service is a lot better though as they offer full installation and adjustment guide.

I opted for the less expensive option from the master pump builder without the bling, a fair bit of language barrier and limited after-sales support.
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Wed 19 Sep, 2018 3:27 pm

Perhaps the UK people will be nice enough to send you the information via email. Send them a request stating you got a pump with 7.5mm plungers and was wondering how to go about installing it. They're likely to just send you the information you need to keep you happy as they don't want one to put a bad word out there about their support.

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Wed 19 Sep, 2018 6:30 pm

I wonder what the stock turbo is good for coupled with one of these pumps.

what turbo do you have on yours 3DB ? from what i can tell I have the stock garrett T3 whatever that is, i may be wrong and have the kkk hmm.

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Thu 20 Sep, 2018 9:24 am

John Green wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:45 am
Quick, put it together and then drive it down to Canberra on Sunday to show it off. :dance: :dance: :dance:
Not sure if I'm brave enough to embark on a 500 km round trip immediately after installing a silly IP! As much as I would love to be there.
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Sun 23 Sep, 2018 9:04 pm

You may or may not be surprised to learn that I have hit another road block on this project. I am personally not surprised, but quite disappointed.

Referring to the attached photos:
  • The old MW pump has a 77mm outer diameter flange that locates the pump onto the engine. The new M pump is about 78mm, so does not clear the housing.
  • The shaft length on the new M pump is also about 10mm longer than that old M pump so even if the flange outlined above was the same size, it would need a spacer between the engine and the pump so that it won't hit the front of the engine.
Do I machine some of the locating ring off and run the risk not being able to use this pump in any other car?

Do I fabricate a spacer to accommodate for the extra shaft length and hope it all fits together?

Do I cut my losses and re-install the old MW pump?

Stay tuned.....
Injector Pump Photos.pdf
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3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by AMGC36 » Mon 24 Sep, 2018 9:07 am

Dam :angry5: that not looking good
Cheers Stefan
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by tsharkey » Mon 24 Sep, 2018 10:56 am

3DB wrote:
Sun 23 Sep, 2018 9:04 pm
You may or may not be surprised to learn that I have hit another road block on this project. I am personally not surprised, but quite disappointed.
Hi Ethan,

Looks like the OM617 Engine comes in 2 flavours, the MW casting and the M. I was very interested to see if you could get the newer pump on, and now understand that they are no so easily changed. I would sell the M pump you have bought and get an MW enhanced to the spec you are looking at, and with ALDA. The OM617A uses the MW pump so there are plenty around (in the US). I can source one for you if needs be.

The market for the M pump is larger here (and in Europe I suspect), in that the later pump was on all OM617 NA from 1980 onwards. If you want to keep the pump, I would get a spacer made up to accommodate (I presume the splines are the same). Depends on how much of a glutton you are for punishment.
W123 1981 300TD - Family Kid mover
W202 1998 C250D Factory OM605A Turbo - Partner's daily driver
W123 1982 300CD Retro fitted OM617A Turbo - Mine
W123 1984 300TD 5 Speed Manual, to teach the kids how to drive
W123 1982 300TD Factory OM617A Turbo (Hans) - Project
W123 1985 230TE - Brother's
W123 1985 300D - Sister in Law's
1962 S-Series Valiant (Tho Daimler & Chrysler divorced, still part of the extended family)

Past benzes
W114 1969 250CE - PO put in an M110 transplant and nearly sent me around the bend
W123 1981 300TD - "Matilda" - RIP hit front side & rear but left my brother + niece A-OK

Current Projects
Coupe restoration, Turbo Wagon freshen up

mathuisella
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Posts: 510
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Mon 24 Sep, 2018 2:16 pm

I wonder if the M pump would fit in later post 80/81 300D's

or perhaps since 3DB mate, you have a really early w123, they changed the casting after making 50,000 cars and then again in 1980 for 2nd generation/face lift ?

Only way to tell would be to try it on another engine i guess. Any other sydney people with a w123 NA car willing to give it a test/try ?

if i remember correctly, your car is a NA 300D with an after market turbo put on and a MW pump sourced to work with the turbo ?

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