M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

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3DB
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M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 9:05 am

Morning all,

After a very long hiatus on work to my car, I have acquired a rebuilt Euro-spec M-series IP with ALDA from a turbodiesel in the hope of improving the performance of my after market turbo fitted to my naturally aspirated engine.

I thought the swap would be pretty straightforward, but I have come up against 2 issues that I was hoping for some advice on:
  • My old NA MW-pump has an oil feed into the side of it. I cannot see a similar feed for the new M-pump. How is the camshaft lubricated on the new pump?
  • My old MW lift pump has a 3-bolt mounting pattern, but the new unit is 2 bolt. I inherited a spare N/A IP with the car that had a 2-bolt lift pump on and it seems like it would work, but the fuel outlet port is much bigger (22mm) on the 2-bolt unit than the 3-bolt so it is kind of useless without either a complete outlet assembly to the hose or some sort of adapter. Any ideas on where I might find such a piece? I feel I should probably just get a complete new lift pump that will connect straight to the flexible hose as I am not sure if the lift pump I have even works. One other thought that occurred to me (tell me if I'm wrong here) is that I could possibly temporarily get away without the lift pump by installing one of the in-line electric Facet-style pumps to do the lift work as the new pump came with a metal blanking plate over the access port to the cam?
As always, any thought for comments appreciated.
1 Old NA MW pump 1.JPG
2 New M pump next to old MW pump.JPG
3 Old NA MW lift pump 1.JPG
4 New lift pump 1.JPG
5 17mm thread to flexi hose.JPG
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1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by tsharkey » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 3:04 pm

Hi - Will be interested to hear how the ALDA goes.

1. There is no oil line on the latter IP so I presume it gets feed oil from what goes around in the engine
2. You will also need new fuel lines from a latter OM617 to the Injectors from the IP as it is in a different position
3. As long as the electric pump has enough pressure to feed the IP, you should be OK.

Pity - there have been 2 later 300D as the self server wreckers down here in the last 6 months that would have had all you need. Note sure if I have a set of lines, give me a shout if you get stuck.
W123 1981 300TD - Family Kid mover
W202 1998 C250D Factory OM605A Turbo - Partner's daily driver
W123 1982 300CD Retro fitted OM617A Turbo - Mine
W123 1984 300TD 5 Speed Manual, to teach the kids how to drive
W123 1982 300TD Factory OM617A Turbo (Hans) - Project
W123 1985 230TE - Brother's
W123 1985 300D - Sister in Law's
1962 S-Series Valiant (Tho Daimler & Chrysler divorced, still part of the extended family)

Past benzes
W114 1969 250CE - PO put in an M110 transplant and nearly sent me around the bend
W123 1981 300TD - "Matilda" - RIP hit front side & rear but left my brother + niece A-OK

Current Projects
Coupe restoration, Turbo Wagon freshen up

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 6:22 pm

I swear you need to get pumps, lines, injectors, prechambers, relays/hazard switches from all these w123's that seem to turn up in VIC. There's none here in QLD :'(

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by tsharkey » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 8:10 pm

Qld just seems to be riddled with manual transmissions, pedal boxes and other conversion items
W123 1981 300TD - Family Kid mover
W202 1998 C250D Factory OM605A Turbo - Partner's daily driver
W123 1982 300CD Retro fitted OM617A Turbo - Mine
W123 1984 300TD 5 Speed Manual, to teach the kids how to drive
W123 1982 300TD Factory OM617A Turbo (Hans) - Project
W123 1985 230TE - Brother's
W123 1985 300D - Sister in Law's
1962 S-Series Valiant (Tho Daimler & Chrysler divorced, still part of the extended family)

Past benzes
W114 1969 250CE - PO put in an M110 transplant and nearly sent me around the bend
W123 1981 300TD - "Matilda" - RIP hit front side & rear but left my brother + niece A-OK

Current Projects
Coupe restoration, Turbo Wagon freshen up

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 8:24 pm

tsharkey wrote:
Sun 16 Sep, 2018 3:04 pm
1. There is no oil line on the latter IP so I presume it gets feed oil from what goes around in the engine
2. You will also need new fuel lines from a latter OM617 to the Injectors from the IP as it is in a different position
Thanks for confirming, Tim.

I had wondered about the hard lines. I put the two pumps side-by-side and it looked like the positioning was the same, but the height of the outlet was slightly lower (<10mm) on the M-pump. I figured I could 'stretch' the existing ones to mate up. But I might not need to as I checked my big box of spares today and found a complete set, which I assume go with the other NA M-pump I have that the 2-bolt lift pump came from. Fingers crossed on that one. I almost had everything I need apart from that larger outlet from the lift pump....

If anyone out there has a complete 2-bolt lift pump they'd be willing to part with for a fair price, please let me know!
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by John Green » Sun 16 Sep, 2018 9:33 pm

Ahhh, now I know why you need the lift pump. :Doh:

That looks like one of Gorans super pumps? If so you will need a lot of boost to keep up with the fuel.
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Mon 17 Sep, 2018 7:19 am

John Green wrote:
Sun 16 Sep, 2018 9:33 pm
Ahhh, now I know why you need the lift pump. :Doh:

That looks like one of Gorans super pumps? If so you will need a lot of boost to keep up with the fuel.
Well spotted, John. Yes it is a Dieselmeken pump with 7.5mm elements. I thought 8.5mm was probably a bridge too far.

I think my turbo will provide up to 22 PSI, but I hope I don't need that much to match the fuel. I have an EGT gauge before the turbo so that will help me drive it conservatively. I also have water+methanol injection, which should also help keep it cool.
Last edited by 3DB on Mon 17 Sep, 2018 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Mon 17 Sep, 2018 8:41 am

Can anyone elaborate a bit more on how the M-pump gets its oil without an oil feed?

I assume I'll need to fill it up with oil until it drains out the front cover before installing?

Then does the bottom reservoir just get splash-filled from the timing chain?

In addition to the camshaft in the bottom, which I assume is just splash lubed from the reservoir in the bottom, isn't there also the governor mechanism up a bit higher in the back that needs oil? Is there a built-in pump that lifts oil up from the bottom reservoir to this?
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Mon 17 Sep, 2018 9:54 am

i believe the M pump is lubricated by the engines oil coupled with the fuel that goes through it.

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Mon 17 Sep, 2018 10:01 am

Found this which may be helpful for you 3DB :)

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/sho ... p?tid=6882


hello ,
1: u take the old pump out, before u set the engine at 24ºBTDC. cylinder one in the way to combustion time.
2: with the pump there will be a gear with a missing tooth, and ring that will slide on top that gear like a glove. inspect that ...
3: Tap the MW oil feed pump, at the engine block. fill the M pump with engine oil new engine oil. both the governor housing and the cam housing.
4: the missing tooth in the pump gear should align with a mark in the pump body.
5: slide the pump in the engine, everithing should be done by hand, make sure it bolts right and can be done smoth.
6: turn the engine 720º make sure nothing is touching, or outsider the right place.
7:conect the fuel lines as the MW, install the hard lines , the old ones should be good but they need to be reshaped, carefull when reshaping them.
8: fire the engine with assistance, watch for a runway engine,
9:fine tune the timing, by listening or using a timing gun, if a timing gun is used at OT at crankshaft, the device should read 16, to 17.5.
PS: pump twards the engine advances
10: after 500km search for the presence of black oil inside the pump. if oil is not black, something is bad in the autolub circuit. fill the pump periodically.

good luck with it.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Mon 17 Sep, 2018 12:25 pm

3DB wrote:
Sun 16 Sep, 2018 8:24 pm
tsharkey wrote:
Sun 16 Sep, 2018 3:04 pm


If anyone out there has a complete 2-bolt lift pump they'd be willing to part with for a fair price, please let me know!

I may be able to help you out :)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 6:38 am

That is a nice little explainer - I was on the right track with all but the oiling procedure. Thanks, Math.
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by John Green » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:45 am

3DB wrote:
Mon 17 Sep, 2018 7:19 am
Well spotted, John. Yes it is a Dieselmeken pump with 7.5mm elements. I thought 8.5mm was probably a bridge too far.

I think my turbo will provide up to 22 PSI, but I hope I don't need that much to match the fuel. I have an EGT gauge before the turbo so that will help me drive it conservatively. I also have water+methanol injection, which should also help keep it cool.
Quick, put it together and then drive it down to Canberra on Sunday to show it off. :dance: :dance: :dance:
Inaugural OZBENZ national meet this September, all welcome to attend. https://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=25165

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 12:57 pm


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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Wed 19 Sep, 2018 1:36 am

tsharkey wrote:
Sun 16 Sep, 2018 8:10 pm
Qld just seems to be riddled with manual transmissions, pedal boxes and other conversion items
haha, i just got super lucky and prayed to the car gods :P :notworthy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZNRnNL4r5I

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Wed 19 Sep, 2018 11:13 am

I also looked at DieselpumpUK and although their pumps look a hell of a lot cooler with all of the anodised accessories, they are considerably more expensive. I'm sure their after-sales service is a lot better though as they offer full installation and adjustment guide.

I opted for the less expensive option from the master pump builder without the bling, a fair bit of language barrier and limited after-sales support.
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Wed 19 Sep, 2018 3:27 pm

Perhaps the UK people will be nice enough to send you the information via email. Send them a request stating you got a pump with 7.5mm plungers and was wondering how to go about installing it. They're likely to just send you the information you need to keep you happy as they don't want one to put a bad word out there about their support.

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Wed 19 Sep, 2018 6:30 pm

I wonder what the stock turbo is good for coupled with one of these pumps.

what turbo do you have on yours 3DB ? from what i can tell I have the stock garrett T3 whatever that is, i may be wrong and have the kkk hmm.

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Thu 20 Sep, 2018 9:24 am

John Green wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:45 am
Quick, put it together and then drive it down to Canberra on Sunday to show it off. :dance: :dance: :dance:
Not sure if I'm brave enough to embark on a 500 km round trip immediately after installing a silly IP! As much as I would love to be there.
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Sun 23 Sep, 2018 9:04 pm

You may or may not be surprised to learn that I have hit another road block on this project. I am personally not surprised, but quite disappointed.

Referring to the attached photos:
  • The old MW pump has a 77mm outer diameter flange that locates the pump onto the engine. The new M pump is about 78mm, so does not clear the housing.
  • The shaft length on the new M pump is also about 10mm longer than that old M pump so even if the flange outlined above was the same size, it would need a spacer between the engine and the pump so that it won't hit the front of the engine.
Do I machine some of the locating ring off and run the risk not being able to use this pump in any other car?

Do I fabricate a spacer to accommodate for the extra shaft length and hope it all fits together?

Do I cut my losses and re-install the old MW pump?

Stay tuned.....
Injector Pump Photos.pdf
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1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by AMGC36 » Mon 24 Sep, 2018 9:07 am

Dam :angry5: that not looking good
Cheers Stefan
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by tsharkey » Mon 24 Sep, 2018 10:56 am

3DB wrote:
Sun 23 Sep, 2018 9:04 pm
You may or may not be surprised to learn that I have hit another road block on this project. I am personally not surprised, but quite disappointed.
Hi Ethan,

Looks like the OM617 Engine comes in 2 flavours, the MW casting and the M. I was very interested to see if you could get the newer pump on, and now understand that they are no so easily changed. I would sell the M pump you have bought and get an MW enhanced to the spec you are looking at, and with ALDA. The OM617A uses the MW pump so there are plenty around (in the US). I can source one for you if needs be.

The market for the M pump is larger here (and in Europe I suspect), in that the later pump was on all OM617 NA from 1980 onwards. If you want to keep the pump, I would get a spacer made up to accommodate (I presume the splines are the same). Depends on how much of a glutton you are for punishment.
W123 1981 300TD - Family Kid mover
W202 1998 C250D Factory OM605A Turbo - Partner's daily driver
W123 1982 300CD Retro fitted OM617A Turbo - Mine
W123 1984 300TD 5 Speed Manual, to teach the kids how to drive
W123 1982 300TD Factory OM617A Turbo (Hans) - Project
W123 1985 230TE - Brother's
W123 1985 300D - Sister in Law's
1962 S-Series Valiant (Tho Daimler & Chrysler divorced, still part of the extended family)

Past benzes
W114 1969 250CE - PO put in an M110 transplant and nearly sent me around the bend
W123 1981 300TD - "Matilda" - RIP hit front side & rear but left my brother + niece A-OK

Current Projects
Coupe restoration, Turbo Wagon freshen up

mathuisella
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Mon 24 Sep, 2018 2:16 pm

I wonder if the M pump would fit in later post 80/81 300D's

or perhaps since 3DB mate, you have a really early w123, they changed the casting after making 50,000 cars and then again in 1980 for 2nd generation/face lift ?

Only way to tell would be to try it on another engine i guess. Any other sydney people with a w123 NA car willing to give it a test/try ?

if i remember correctly, your car is a NA 300D with an after market turbo put on and a MW pump sourced to work with the turbo ?

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Mon 24 Sep, 2018 10:55 pm

Hi all,

I have to stand slightly corrected on some of this. I re-measured the outer locator hub with a set of digital callipers that I didn't have the other day and there is only 0.02mm in it, so I think with some heat on the engine and the pump in the freezer I could probably get past this part. Dieselmeken was adamant they are the same size and I mostly have to agree.

But the shaft length is still stumping me. I removed the spline and locator hub completely off the shaft and test fitted it and I am positive it is hitting the front of the engine.

I measure that again tonight and it is very difficult to get very accurate, but my callipers are saying the M shaft is 5.23mm longer than the MW.

Unfortunately the car is 20 km away so I can't really fiddle around here at home. I might have to borrow my mate's car trailer and retrieve it one evening this week so I can look more closely.

Tim - the spacer is tempting, but I guess there is no guarantee it will couple properly if I go to that length. Perhaps I could make a trial version out of wood just to see if it will mate up?

Math - yes this engine is factory NA and I assume the original 1976 version and as far as I know the MW pump is 100% standard and the original that was on it since new.

I will feel really stupid if all I needed to do was tap it in with a piece of timber. In my defence I was being supervised by a Mercedes mechanic with 40+ years of experience at the time.....
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by tsharkey » Mon 24 Sep, 2018 11:41 pm

3DB wrote:
Mon 24 Sep, 2018 10:55 pm
Tim - the spacer is tempting, but I guess there is no guarantee it will couple properly if I go to that length. Perhaps I could make a trial version out of wood just to see if it will mate up?
As long as the splines are the same but 5mm further out, make a 6mm spacer out of marine ply - at least you wont need a gasket ! I have a standard M off an engine in spare parts - will measure and photo that for a compare.
W123 1981 300TD - Family Kid mover
W202 1998 C250D Factory OM605A Turbo - Partner's daily driver
W123 1982 300CD Retro fitted OM617A Turbo - Mine
W123 1984 300TD 5 Speed Manual, to teach the kids how to drive
W123 1982 300TD Factory OM617A Turbo (Hans) - Project
W123 1985 230TE - Brother's
W123 1985 300D - Sister in Law's
1962 S-Series Valiant (Tho Daimler & Chrysler divorced, still part of the extended family)

Past benzes
W114 1969 250CE - PO put in an M110 transplant and nearly sent me around the bend
W123 1981 300TD - "Matilda" - RIP hit front side & rear but left my brother + niece A-OK

Current Projects
Coupe restoration, Turbo Wagon freshen up

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3DB
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Wed 26 Sep, 2018 6:07 pm

tsharkey wrote:
Mon 24 Sep, 2018 11:41 pm
3DB wrote:
Mon 24 Sep, 2018 10:55 pm
make a 6mm spacer out of marine ply - at least you wont need a gasket !
Reminds me of 'war stories' my grandfather used to tell me when I was a kid about people making wooden pistons and using belt leather for big end bearings during the war.
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by tsharkey » Fri 28 Sep, 2018 10:54 pm

An M removed this from a 300D at pick a part about 9 months ago
001.JPG
Note the flange is different from yours
003.JPG
Also, the end of the bolt on the spline is 50mm from the edge of the pump (not the flange)
004.JPG
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W123 1981 300TD - Family Kid mover
W202 1998 C250D Factory OM605A Turbo - Partner's daily driver
W123 1982 300CD Retro fitted OM617A Turbo - Mine
W123 1984 300TD 5 Speed Manual, to teach the kids how to drive
W123 1982 300TD Factory OM617A Turbo (Hans) - Project
W123 1985 230TE - Brother's
W123 1985 300D - Sister in Law's
1962 S-Series Valiant (Tho Daimler & Chrysler divorced, still part of the extended family)

Past benzes
W114 1969 250CE - PO put in an M110 transplant and nearly sent me around the bend
W123 1981 300TD - "Matilda" - RIP hit front side & rear but left my brother + niece A-OK

Current Projects
Coupe restoration, Turbo Wagon freshen up

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3DB
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Sat 29 Sep, 2018 10:26 am

I think the overall shaft / bolt length is the main issue. I took the spline completely off and test fitted it and the bolt seemed to be hitting something. I think I should be able to take the spline from the MW and fit it to the M ok if necessary.

I really need the car back here to play around with it, but just about to head to QLD on school hols, so that won’t happen for at least another week, more likely 2.
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel injector pumps

Post by 3DB » Sun 28 Oct, 2018 9:14 pm

Well, here we are a month later.

I went and retrieved the car from Parramatta on Tuesday and brought it home so I could fiddle with it in the evenings.

I still can't believe this, but after removing the splined end of the pump input shaft and re-installing it, it fit into the engine first go. I really have no idea what the previous issue was, but there seemed like there was no way it was going to fit a month ago. Has to be something to do with the cylindrical splined socket / collar that couples the pump to the engine.

Interestingly, after getting the engine to 24-degree BTDC, it moved quite a lot on its own in a month.

So now the M-pump is in and I spent about 4 hours today bolting it all back up. I used the spare set of hard lines I had which are completely different shapes from the ones on the old MW pump - they bolted straight up with no bending required. Think they look pretty cool too, unimportant as that is.
hard line install.JPG
I had some other minor issues:
  • The MW pump is a bit longer, as previously, discussed, so the rear mounting bracket didn't quite work. I had a spare bracket with the other M pump I have, but there was no way that was going to line up, so I made a spacer to take up the slack on the original bracket. Seems like it will work.
MW rear mounting.JPG
rear bracket 2.JPG
  • The throttle linkage is hitting one of the glow plugs. It seems like this will only be an issue if I need to use the manual emergency shutdown lever and even then there is enough play that you can make it work if you bend the linkage out of the way a bit. I'm sure there is some sort of more permanent solution for this.
linkage on glow plug.JPG
  • Blocking off the old oil feed. I have massive 2L ice cream bucket full of old W123 bolts, nuts and washers and I could not find another M8 x 1 bolt anywhere in there. Heaps of M8 x 1.25 of course. So I re-used the old banjo screw and found a cylindrical spacer about the same diameter and hopefully the copper washers will seal against that. Will keep an eye on it.
Oil feed block.JPG
So it is all back together now and I attempted to fire it up this afternoon, but it wouldn't go. I didn't have time to fiddle with it so hopefully it is just a priming issue (I've never had to prime an empty injector pump before). The filter is definitely full, but I opened up the hard line at injector 1 and primed again but was getting no fuel out. Also tried cranking the engine and still no fuel into that hard line. Will have another go tomorrow night. Need to put the battery back on charge. Anything obvious I might be missing?
Completely installed.JPG
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3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

tsharkey
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by tsharkey » Sun 28 Oct, 2018 11:22 pm

There will be a lot of priming, I would crack the lines at the injectors and wait till you get weeping on a few of them after a fair bit of cranking. Accelerator full on to push as much through as you can and pull the glow plug relay fuse. (When those old glowies go, get the pencil adapter and convert to the fast glow ones. Probably fix your linkage issue as well.)

btw - Did you have to remove the oil filter to get the MW pump off ?

This IP with your meth / water injection should really perk things up.
W123 1981 300TD - Family Kid mover
W202 1998 C250D Factory OM605A Turbo - Partner's daily driver
W123 1982 300CD Retro fitted OM617A Turbo - Mine
W123 1984 300TD 5 Speed Manual, to teach the kids how to drive
W123 1982 300TD Factory OM617A Turbo (Hans) - Project
W123 1985 230TE - Brother's
W123 1985 300D - Sister in Law's
1962 S-Series Valiant (Tho Daimler & Chrysler divorced, still part of the extended family)

Past benzes
W114 1969 250CE - PO put in an M110 transplant and nearly sent me around the bend
W123 1981 300TD - "Matilda" - RIP hit front side & rear but left my brother + niece A-OK

Current Projects
Coupe restoration, Turbo Wagon freshen up

mathuisella
560 SEL
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Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Mon 29 Oct, 2018 5:24 pm

tsharkey wrote:
Sun 28 Oct, 2018 11:22 pm
There will be a lot of priming, I would crack the lines at the injectors and wait till you get weeping on a few of them after a fair bit of cranking. Accelerator full on to push as much through as you can and pull the glow plug relay fuse. (When those old glowies go, get the pencil adapter and convert to the fast glow ones. Probably fix your linkage issue as well.)

btw - Did you have to remove the oil filter to get the MW pump off ?

This IP with your meth / water injection should really perk things up.
Great to see you're back and going forward with this :) can't want to see how it goes.

as Tsharkey said, there will be a lot of priming.

the way i've done it.

1. fill up the primary spin on fuel filter with fresh diesel
2. put system together, but leave the return line going into an ice cream container/jar or something. Or even use clear line as temporary measure.
3. use hand primer pump until a nice strong amount comes through the return line every push of the primer. ( once strong flow is there, reconnect the return line to go back to the tank )

4. crack all of the injector hard lines open at the injector

5. in 5 second spurts, ( with a good minute or two rest in between so the starter motor doesn't overheat ) crank the engine until you see " wet spots" at the top of the injectors

6.tighten up each injector as you notice wet spots upon it when diesel fuel gets to the end of the hard line.


It will likely take 3 or more of these 5 second cranking of the engine/starter as the lines are completely empty of fuel.

:)

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3DB
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Mon 29 Oct, 2018 10:27 pm

Thanks for the priming tips, gents.

I would never have believed it would take so much had I not just done it myself.

I ended up plumbing in a spare Facet-style electric lift pump to save the RSI from the primer, but it seems there is no substitute for engine cranking to get the fuel into the lines.

My battery gave up just as I got fuel to the injectors, so I got the jumper lead out and the ever-reliable Rodeo helped out with some extra cranking power.

Even so, it still wouldn't fire so I resorted to a can of Aerostart I've had in the boot for years.

That got it to fire and I must say the plume of smoke that issued forth from the exhaust was something to behold. I'm glad I did it at 9:45 pm and not 9:45 am as even in the dark it engulfed the whole street. It was like a fish & chip shop was fire-bombed.

So the issue I think I have now is that the adjustable linkage between the pump throttle and the mess of cantilevers is too long. Even adjusted to its shortest option, it seem to hold the throttle at about 1/2 with foot off the accelerator.

So even though it fired, I had to shut it down pretty quickly as I didn't want to rev it that hard on a cold start. Fortunately all the cranking was getting the oil pressure up a bit, so hopefully there was some oil in the top end when it went from 0 to 3000 rpm in 1 second.

Would someone with an M-pump mind measuring their linkage from thread to thread? I only just thought of this after I packed it all up, so will measure mine in the morning.

Cheers,
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

mathuisella
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Tue 30 Oct, 2018 12:46 am

Any chance of a few pictures of your linkages to see how they go over the valve cover, as there's about 4 different variants/orientations of the linkages on these 300D's.

Happy to take pics/measurements of mine though :)


edit:

yeah, the hand primer does all the priming through the injector pump and through the return lines, but it cannot prime the hardlines as the injector pump just takes the fuel it's fed by the lift/primer pump and then pushes it up to pressure in the hardlines.

Honestly would've loved to have seen the smoke cloud hahahaha.

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3DB
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Tue 30 Oct, 2018 11:28 am

Here are some pics of my throttle linkages.

The final linkage to the IP is 170mm long at a minimum and about 200 mm long at maximum.

I definitely need a shorter one.

I guess I could just cut some length out of this one and braze / weld it up / make a threaded socket to join?

Or find a piece of rod the same diameter and cut some threads on the end with my die kit, assuming I have the right one.
IMG_8701.JPG
IMG_8702.JPG
IMG_8700.JPG
IMG_8699.JPG
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3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 564
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Tue 30 Oct, 2018 4:28 pm

Damn, both of my setups are completely different :'(

You could cut and weld, but i would visit wreckers and just pull all the juicy parts you want off of another car that's about to be crushed

With the ends that screw onto the rod, i found that there's more threaded area than that of which goes into the " nut" side that clips onto the ball joint, so if you maybe put a nut on the end, then cut with angle grinder, unscrew the nut to make the threads good again,m you could make it shorter that way. ( hope that makes sense )

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3DB
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Thu 01 Nov, 2018 9:03 pm

It lives

And makes lots and lots of boost

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iin5ov4y99wjg ... m.mov?dl=0
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

mathuisella
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Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
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Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Fri 02 Nov, 2018 1:38 am

:O wow, would love to see how much more power it's making over stock. :whistle:

stock turbo motor and turbo makes about 10psi according to mercedes source Kent guy.

May have to swing by on this years sydney trip to check it out haha....

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AMGC36
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Model you own: w202
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by AMGC36 » Fri 02 Nov, 2018 8:58 am

Good to see it going, the pumps are just so great it made my 2.9 rexton a new car to drive !! did you do anything to the turbo /waste gate
Cheers Stefan
1995 W202 AMG C36
2001 w203 c180
Rexton 2.9 with Dieselmeken super pump on WVO

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3DB
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Sat 03 Nov, 2018 4:25 pm

Yes, this car is completely different to drive now too. It is perfectly well behaved at low RPM off-boost and you can drive it around quite peacefully. It has better throttle response down low now too.

As soon as it starts to boost it really builds quickly and, unfortunately, the transmission isn't coping. It flares badly above about 12 PSI and this seems to be right around the point it wants to shift from second to third. If you keep your foot down it maxes out at 22 psi and revs it guts out. If you back off and let it shift, you can get it going again in 3rd but by that time I'm hitting 70+ km/h and there are no roads around here where you can safely / legally go much faster.

If I could put the power to the ground it would be pretty interesting I think.

It is also running pretty hot. I've seen EGTs hit 500C before the turbo already on a small squirt, so that doesn't bode well for prolonged wail on the loud pedal. I might need to look at an intercooler and maybe a bigger water/methanol nozzle.

As for horsepower, who knows. But not much if I can't put it to the wheels.

Stefan - the turbo is a generic multi-purpose Chinese job from eBay, so not really comparable to a stock one. The turbine wheel looks small relative to the compressor wheel and the wastegate seems to be set at 22 PSI.

Other minor issues:
- It smokes like hell when it is cold. Embarrassingly so. I guess the American rollin' coal guys would love it, but I'd rather a clean burn. It was always a bit smoky on start up , but it seems really bad now. Cleans up well when warm though - almost imperceptible at idle. I did notice a bit of plume behind me when I got on it this morning though, but it was still not a full operating temp.
- It has a minor oil leak between the pump & engine - likely from the paper gasket I made. Hopefully I can tighten the bolts a bit more and get that under control.

All in all I'm happy with the result. But will need to consider a manual trans swap ala Mathusiela.
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 564
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Sun 04 Nov, 2018 4:10 am

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/stuart/ ... 1197980934

This is the only other manual for sale other than mine in the country.... If it's the om616 engine, the manual transmission should bolt up with no troubles. ( done it myself :) )

Although, not sure how it will handle the power haha.

sadly these guys don't have any kits in stock...

http://www.dieselmercedes.com/Mercedes_ ... 1-m67a.htm


parts seperately....

they do have a gearbox though....

http://www.dieselmercedes.com/Mercedes_ ... m66.9a.htm

and flywheel, but flywheel is cheaper elsewhere

http://www.dieselmercedes.com/Mercedes_ ... 65.9-n.htm


Shifter
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mercedes-W1 ... :rk:3:pf:0

linkages
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mercedes-W1 ... :rk:6:pf:0

gearbox itself
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MERCEDES-W1 ... :rk:7:pf:0

The bushings for linkages + gearbox

https://mercedessource.com/store/220d-2 ... ushing-kit

These are no longer available at mercedes when i last asked, could be back i dunno.

Also, don't forget the linkage clips to hold the linkage rods in place.

https://www.amazon.com/Mercedes-Linkage ... B018KSZVPM

Expensive 300D flywheel
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mercedes-Be ... :rk:1:pf:0

or
alternative 240D flywheel Hell of a lot cheaper

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mercedes-Be ... :rk:1:pf:0


clutch options

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mercedes-Be ... :rk:1:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DriveTorque ... :rk:2:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Exedy-Clutc ... :rk:2:pf:0


The shifter boot is still available at mercedes, i ordered one about 3 weeks ago and they are about $25, not bad at all knowing you're getting a good quality piece that will fit straight out of the box unlike chinese knockoffs.

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3DB
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Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by 3DB » Sun 04 Nov, 2018 7:53 am

That W115 is way too nice to part out for a gearbox. It would make more sense for me to transplant my engine into it!

And your details of gearbox swaps should go into a sticky / permanent reference I think.

Thanks for the info!
3DB
1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
1995 Holden Rodeo 2.8 factory turbo diesel ute (daily driver...also on biodiesel)
(@thirddegreeburns on Instagram)

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 564
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: M-series vs MW-series diesel lift pumps

Post by mathuisella » Sun 04 Nov, 2018 3:18 pm

You're welcome.



if the mods want me to do a nice write up guide on how to do Automatic to manual gearbox swap, i'm more than happy to make a guide with tips from my own experiences.

finding manual parts is best if you find a whole car for all the pieces matched and the odd fittings ect: like between the clutch master/slave cylinders and the fluid res.

I personally would get the car from up north, evaluate any rust and possibly put your engine into it as you said.

Then sell your current car as auto and recoupe some costs and another person can be happy having an old benz :)

I'm sell you my red car ( manual + working air con), but that's a running car with a lot of work in it and it's kind of spoken for...

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