M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

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hismajestics
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M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by hismajestics » Sat 17 Aug, 2013 6:39 pm

Hi everybody, new member here.

I'm working with my M104 to W114 Coupe swap and trying to find a way to get a proper speed signal for M104 ECU. Otherwise the car won't rev above 4000 rpm. Any ideas on this would be gratefully appreciated.

M104 engine: 104992
Transmission: 717450

Edit: Topic...
Last edited by hismajestics on Sun 25 Aug, 2013 9:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
//johannes

W114 Coupe w/M104 E320

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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by Greg in Oz » Sat 17 Aug, 2013 11:22 pm

Depending on model, road speed signal (as required by various things such as ECU and cruise control) was usually taken from either a hall effect pickup in the back of the speedo (on models that used a conventional speedo cable) or a pickup at the rear of the transmission (on models that used electric impulse speedo). I would look at generating impulses by either of these methods, but if that's not practical maybe you could fool the ECU by sending it impulses generated by a simple electronic circuit. It probably doesn't really matter whether or not the impulses are proportional to road speed, but just that impulses exist. Without impulses telling the ECU that the car is moving, it will limit the engine to a maximum of 4000rpm to prevent over-revving in neutral (as you have found).
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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by Giles » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 12:03 am

hismajestics wrote:Hi everybody, new member here.

I'm working with my M104 to W114 Coupe swap and trying to find a way to get a proper speed signal for M104 ECU. Otherwise the car won't rev above 4000 rpm. Any ideas on this would be gratefully appreciated.

M104 engine: 104992
Transmission: 717450
Very interesting project, please keep us posted. Bit partial to C114's. Looking for options for a second one I recently aquired.

Is a M104 any longer than a M110?

Giles
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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by hismajestics » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 5:01 pm

Greg in Oz wrote:Depending on model, road speed signal (as required by various things such as ECU and cruise control) was usually taken from either a hall effect pickup in the back of the speedo (on models that used a conventional speedo cable) or a pickup at the rear of the transmission (on models that used electric impulse speedo). I would look at generating impulses by either of these methods, but if that's not practical maybe you could fool the ECU by sending it impulses generated by a simple electronic circuit. It probably doesn't really matter whether or not the impulses are proportional to road speed, but just that impulses exist. Without impulses telling the ECU that the car is moving, it will limit the engine to a maximum of 4000rpm to prevent over-revving in neutral (as you have found).
Great news, thanks! I thought this would be ABS related and since the Coupe does not have any, it would be trouble.

Yes, the W124 E320 speedo has the conventional cable. Is this the hall effect pick up (red circle)?

Image

If it is, would the solution then be to figure out how to install the W124 speedo electronics in a W114 speedo frame?

Where should the signal from hall pick-up be connected?
//johannes

W114 Coupe w/M104 E320

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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by hismajestics » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 5:31 pm

Giles wrote:Very interesting project, please keep us posted. Bit partial to C114's. Looking for options for a second one I recently aquired.

Is a M104 any longer than a M110?

Giles
Hi, thanks. I think this will be good when ready. It may be slightly longer than M110 and, for example, visco fan needs to be taken away. Some pics (M114, M104)

Before:
210 Nm at 4500 rpm, 150 hp at 5500 rpm
Image

And now:
310 Nm at 3750 rpm, 220 hp at 5500 rpm

This version approx. 240 hp
Image

It is doable, level of difficulty depends on the style of the oil sump. There are (at least) three different designs. The one with design closest to M103 will fit the subframe. I'll post pics in a different topic as soon as I've sorted out the speed signal issue and relocation of oil filter etc.

Br

EDIT: type errror... the upper engine is M114, not M110
Last edited by hismajestics on Mon 19 Aug, 2013 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
//johannes

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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by Greg in Oz » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 6:03 pm

hismajestics wrote:
Greg in Oz wrote:Depending on model, road speed signal (as required by various things such as ECU and cruise control) was usually taken from either a hall effect pickup in the back of the speedo (on models that used a conventional speedo cable) or a pickup at the rear of the transmission (on models that used electric impulse speedo). I would look at generating impulses by either of these methods, but if that's not practical maybe you could fool the ECU by sending it impulses generated by a simple electronic circuit. It probably doesn't really matter whether or not the impulses are proportional to road speed, but just that impulses exist. Without impulses telling the ECU that the car is moving, it will limit the engine to a maximum of 4000rpm to prevent over-revving in neutral (as you have found).
Great news, thanks! I thought this would be ABS related and since the Coupe does not have any, it would be trouble.

Yes, the W124 E320 speedo has the conventional cable. Is this the hall effect pick up (red circle)?

Image

If it is, would the solution then be to figure out how to install the W124 speedo electronics in a W114 speedo frame?

Where should the signal from hall pick-up be connected?
Yes, that is the hall effect sensor. The 2-pin connector is for +12V and 0V (chassis/ground) and the single pin connector is the speed impulse signal. The hall effect sensor simply needs to sense a moving magnetic field. You will notice it is mounted in the speedo in such a way that it can sense the rotating magnet at the end of the speedo cable that turns the eddy current drum that turns the speedo needle. If you can find a way of mounting the hall effect sensor in the W114 speedo such that it can sense its rotating magnet, you will be in business. If this isn't possible, an alternative may be to obtain a pickup assembly designed to mount to a speedo cable for use with a rally computer.
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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by TheMadRacoon » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 9:24 pm

Before:
210 Nm at 4500 rpm, 150 hp at 5500 rpm
Image

This looks more like an M114 (2.5L earlier 250CE) or M130 (2.8L later 250CE) engine? The M110 is the twin-cam with the distinctive striped cam cover. Perhaps someone can identify from the power & torque figures?
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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by Greg in Oz » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 9:39 pm

TheMadRacoon wrote:This looks more like an M114 (2.5L earlier 250CE) or M130 (2.8L later 250CE) engine? The M110 is the twin-cam with the distinctive striped cam cover. Perhaps someone can identify from the power & torque figures?
I'm fairly sure the only single cam six with D-Jet was the M114 (in the 250CE). Only the carb versions (250 & 250C) came with either the M114 (2.5) or M130 (2.8). The twin cam M110 (2.8) looked very different (W114 versions were 280, 280E, 280C & 280CE).
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
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201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by Giles » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 9:45 pm

Yep, the old engine is an M114, but that's good as my second project is as well.

Keep up the posts.

Regards,

Giles
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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by John Green » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 9:54 pm

Fit front hubs/discs and callipers from a 560SL, these will bolt straight on. Then use the ABS sensor from one wheel for the speed sensor.. :think: :think: :think:
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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by hismajestics » Mon 19 Aug, 2013 3:53 am

TheMadRacoon wrote:
Before:
210 Nm at 4500 rpm, 150 hp at 5500 rpm
Image

This looks more like an M114 (2.5L earlier 250CE) or M130 (2.8L later 250CE) engine? The M110 is the twin-cam with the distinctive striped cam cover. Perhaps someone can identify from the power & torque figures?
Yes, sorry... type :error: Of course it is a M114, my Coupe is a 250CE.
//johannes

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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by hismajestics » Mon 19 Aug, 2013 5:15 am

John Green wrote:Fit front hubs/discs and callipers from a 560SL, these will bolt straight on. Then use the ABS sensor from one wheel for the speed sensor.. :think: :think: :think:
I've been going back and forth with the brake upgrade for some time now and the best setup I could figure out was brakes from late -80 to late -85 (early -86?) pre-facelift, as in W126 and W107. Together with hubs from this era.

Image

These are with 60mm dual piston caliper, 278 x 22mm vented disc with disc height of 68,5mm and hub hole of 80mm.

I did not find a way to fit post facelift W107/W126 brakes. If I understand it right, the 4 piston calipers, 284 x 22mm vented discs with hub hole of 67mm can only be fitted in the facelift front subframes.

Image

In my understanding the facelift front axle has components from W124? Upper control arm, spindle...? Pic above from 560SL -88.

Did I miss something here..? :think:
Last edited by hismajestics on Mon 19 Aug, 2013 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
//johannes

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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by hismajestics » Mon 19 Aug, 2013 5:23 am

Greg in Oz wrote:Yes, that is the hall effect sensor. The 2-pin connector is for +12V and 0V (chassis/ground) and the single pin connector is the speed impulse signal. The hall effect sensor simply needs to sense a moving magnetic field. You will notice it is mounted in the speedo in such a way that it can sense the rotating magnet at the end of the speedo cable that turns the eddy current drum that turns the speedo needle. If you can find a way of mounting the hall effect sensor in the W114 speedo such that it can sense its rotating magnet, you will be in business. If this isn't possible, an alternative may be to obtain a pickup assembly designed to mount to a speedo cable for use with a rally computer.
Thanks a lot, will continue my research :-)
//johannes

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project.

Post by hismajestics » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 10:48 pm

I thought there might be interest in this swap so I changed the topic and will continue revealing stuff that I came across during the project. I also have some questions that I haven't solved yet and hope to get your professional advice on these.

Manage this thread is a bit tricky since I'm not allowed to get notifications on comments posted in it, so, it may take a while to react on new postings. Some pics of the Coupe to start with (for some reason the pics are cropped, but when you click them, they'll display full size).

This car is -72 and a one owner car with less than 200k. 4 speed manual gearbox.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
//johannes

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project.

Post by hismajestics » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 11:39 pm

The donor is a 5 owner (I bought the whole car) E320 -93, 5 speed dogleg and 210k on it. VIN number 1240921F261514. The car is without an immobilizer.

I started considering a C36 AMG but them all were with an auto and I was really uncertain if a dogleg could be bolted on without major hazzle with original engine management. I'm not ready for a standalone yet. Well, I do not have skills to program Megasquirts and alike... :smile: Later I learned that E320 (without immobilizer and with manual gearbox) is a safer bet. And, well, probably as good for this project as C36.

The weakest part in M104's is the wiring harness. Maybe not in the 300-24v CIS-E but certainly in a HFM-FSI as mine is. Remains to see what sort of trouble I'm facing when the project reaches that point where all the electricity is to be figured out.

Some pics of the two motors to compare.

First issue you face is the throttle body in the M104 which is on the opposite side as in M114 (pics crop again...??).

Image

The other is the oil sump, which in M114 appears to be more in front than in M104 (sorry, a bit unclear iPhone pics).

Image

And there seems to be a lot more clearance in the area of the oil pan in M114.

Image

M104 also looks more bulkier than M114.

Image

The major thing in the project is that I haven't found a reference case from where to learn from and thus it takes a lot more time with trials and errors. But the progress is there :smile:

Well, I'll take it from here and will come back with more details later.
//johannes

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project.

Post by cuisses » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 11:44 pm

Car looks great - apart from the missing chrome strip.

What is the blue bit next to the lights on the front (where stone guards would be in Australia, sometimes)? Is it some kind of protective cover, like the "car bras" that used to be popular on some cars in the 80's?
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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project.

Post by Greg in Oz » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 11:55 pm

hismajestics wrote:The donor is a 5 owner (I bought the whole car) E320 -93, 5 speed dogleg and 210k on it...
3.2 M104 with a dogleg 5 speed manual. Very nice! I wish we had donors like that available in Australia. I would love to drop that combination into a W201 Sportline (for the suspension and seats) to use as a daily driver. So long as the W201 started out as a 190E 2.6, it would probably be a much easier project than yours. The W201 even has the hall-effect sensor already fitted to the speedo.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project.

Post by hismajestics » Wed 21 Aug, 2013 3:04 pm

cuisses wrote:Car looks great - apart from the missing chrome strip.

What is the blue bit next to the lights on the front (where stone guards would be in Australia, sometimes)? Is it some kind of protective cover, like the "car bras" that used to be popular on some cars in the 80's?
Thanks. Yes, they are protective covers. From the 70's :smile:
//johannes

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project.

Post by hismajestics » Wed 21 Aug, 2013 3:08 pm

Greg in Oz wrote:
hismajestics wrote:The donor is a 5 owner (I bought the whole car) E320 -93, 5 speed dogleg and 210k on it...
3.2 M104 with a dogleg 5 speed manual. Very nice! I wish we had donors like that available in Australia. I would love to drop that combination into a W201 Sportline (for the suspension and seats) to use as a daily driver. So long as the W201 started out as a 190E 2.6, it would probably be a much easier project than yours. The W201 even has the hall-effect sensor already fitted to the speedo.
Do you mean that all the imported E320 cars had an auto box, or...?

Yes, it is definitely much easier job to swap the M104 in a W201. Electrics, engine mountings and carriers, space...
//johannes

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project.

Post by hismajestics » Wed 21 Aug, 2013 3:17 pm

I would need some guidance with the fuel line.

Do I need to plug in the donor cars dual fuel pump or can I continue with the original single pump from W114? Is there enough capacity, pressure...?

W114 original pump

Image

Image

E320 dual pump

Image
//johannes

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project.

Post by Greg in Oz » Thu 22 Aug, 2013 11:32 pm

hismajestics wrote:
Greg in Oz wrote:
hismajestics wrote:The donor is a 5 owner (I bought the whole car) E320 -93, 5 speed dogleg and 210k on it...
3.2 M104 with a dogleg 5 speed manual. Very nice! I wish we had donors like that available in Australia. I would love to drop that combination into a W201 Sportline (for the suspension and seats) to use as a daily driver. So long as the W201 started out as a 190E 2.6, it would probably be a much easier project than yours. The W201 even has the hall-effect sensor already fitted to the speedo.
Do you mean that all the imported E320 cars had an auto box, or...?
Yes, in Australia most Mercs came with auto transmissions. The only manuals apart from some older models (up to 1970s) were some of the 4 cylinder models such as the W201 and W202. There weren't any manuals in the 6 cylinder models (not even the 190E 2.6) and certainly not in the W124. A 3.2 M104 fitted with a manual (especially a close ratio dogleg) would be highly regarded among enthuiasts in Australia.
hismajestics wrote:...Do I need to plug in the donor cars dual fuel pump or can I continue with the original single pump from W114? Is there enough capacity, pressure...?
If you plan to test the car with the conversion completed on a dyno whilst monitoring air/fuel ratio and fuel pressures, I would suggest you could try it with the older single pump. If you plan to just do the conversion and drive it, I would recommend swapping to the newer dual pumps to be certain you don't suffer fuel starvation or lean air/fuel ratio.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project.

Post by hismajestics » Sun 25 Aug, 2013 9:28 pm

Greg in Oz wrote:If you plan to just do the conversion and drive it, I would recommend swapping to the newer dual pumps to be certain you don't suffer fuel starvation or lean air/fuel ratio.
Okay, thanks.
//johannes

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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by hismajestics » Sun 25 Aug, 2013 9:33 pm

hismajestics wrote:
John Green wrote:Fit front hubs/discs and callipers from a 560SL, these will bolt straight on. Then use the ABS sensor from one wheel for the speed sensor.. :think: :think: :think:
I've been going back and forth with the brake upgrade for some time now and the best setup I could figure out was brakes from late -80 to late -85 (early -86?) pre-facelift, as in W126 and W107. Together with hubs from this era.

Image

These are with 60mm dual piston caliper, 278 x 22mm vented disc with disc height of 68,5mm and hub hole of 80mm.

I did not find a way to fit post facelift W107/W126 brakes. If I understand it right, the 4 piston calipers, 284 x 22mm vented discs with hub hole of 67mm can only be fitted in the facelift front subframes.

Image

In my understanding the facelift front axle has components from W124? Upper control arm, spindle...? Pic above from 560SL -88.

Did I miss something here..? :think:
Can somebody shed some light on this issue. Was there something I missed when not being able to fit brakes from 560SL or W126 post facelift?
//johannes

W114 Coupe w/M104 E320

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by hismajestics » Sat 31 Aug, 2013 7:08 am

Nobody with any thoughts?
//johannes

W114 Coupe w/M104 E320

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Re: Speed signal to M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe swap?

Post by hismajestics » Fri 20 Sep, 2013 5:46 am

hismajestics wrote:
hismajestics wrote:
John Green wrote:Fit front hubs/discs and callipers from a 560SL, these will bolt straight on. Then use the ABS sensor from one wheel for the speed sensor.. :think: :think: :think:
Can somebody shed some light on this issue. Was there something I missed when not being able to fit brakes from 560SL or W126 post facelift?
How should I take this... vast amount of knowledge on this forum and nobody with any info in this?? :smile:
//johannes

W114 Coupe w/M104 E320

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project.

Post by AMGC36 » Sat 01 Nov, 2014 8:33 pm

Greg in Oz wrote:
hismajestics wrote:The donor is a 5 owner (I bought the whole car) E320 -93, 5 speed dogleg and 210k on it...
3.2 M104 with a dogleg 5 speed manual. Very nice! I wish we had donors like that available in Australia. I would love to drop that combination into a W201 Sportline (for the suspension and seats) to use as a daily driver. So long as the W201 started out as a 190E 2.6, it would probably be a much easier project than yours. The W201 even has the hall-effect sensor already fitted to the speedo.
Hi Greg
Re 5 speed for a M104, the ssangyong musso also has M104 most are autos but some had 5 speeds fitted have toyed with the idea for my c36, getting a clutch pedal and other odds and ends would be hard I think
Cheers Stefan
1995 W202 AMG C36
2001 w203 c180
Rexton 2.9 with Dieselmeken super pump on WVO

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by Dave5928 » Sun 21 Jun, 2015 1:26 pm

I've followed this thread for some time and lusted after the M104 engine. Thanks for all the great documentation. A few questions: 1. How did you resolve the oil pan clearance issue 2. Did you ever find a successful resolution for the hall effect speedometer?

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by hismajestics » Wed 28 Oct, 2015 3:22 am

Dave5928 wrote:I've followed this thread for some time and lusted after the M104 engine. Thanks for all the great documentation. A few questions: 1. How did you resolve the oil pan clearance issue 2. Did you ever find a successful resolution for the hall effect speedometer?
I did not have any issue with the oil pan. If my memory serves me correct there are three types of oil pans in M104 24V engined cars. My engine was from W124 and it did clear the W114 subframe perfectly.

My speedo is mechanical so there's no problem and the gearbox has mechanical output. The hall sensor was in discussion because of the needed speed signal to the engine in order to rev beyond 4000 rpm's. Eventually it shoved to be a safety feature of automatic transmissions only. You brake the clutch in auto's if you rev past 4000 rpm's stand still.

Btw, sorry for this late reply. No notifications from ozbenz....
//johannes

W114 Coupe w/M104 E320

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by Mercmad » Fri 30 Oct, 2015 9:33 pm

Isn't the later stub axle bigger? The upper arms are forged rather than pressed as on the early cars but i would have thought the 560 brakes interchanged as John said.

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by Giles » Fri 30 Oct, 2015 9:53 pm

Mercmad wrote:Isn't the later stub axle bigger? The upper arms are forged rather than pressed as on the early cars but i would have thought the 560 brakes interchanged as John said.
The series 2 stub axle allows the fitting of 560 sedan front callipers and discs but I believe the 560SL setup is different.

Giles
1981 500SLC (Colour Black) Keeper car Lola
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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by AMG » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 10:05 am

126 560SEL rotors and callipers bolt straight onto w114 / 107 early front hubs. callipers require a banjo fitting to clear the setup.

if you want 4 piston callipers from a late 560SL, then you need the WHOLE front subframe, along with the cast steel upper arm, the modified 124 lower arm, the new spindle, steering link, hub, rotor and calliper.

The w126 brakes are a little heavier, but more importantly, are thicker - and this allows more heat dissipation. added bonus is they are direct fit to existing hub assembly on 114/5.

do your control arm bushes balljoints and wheel bearings as well.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by AMG » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 10:08 am

hismajestics wrote:
Dave5928 wrote:I've followed this thread for some time and lusted after the M104 engine. Thanks for all the great documentation. A few questions: 1. How did you resolve the oil pan clearance issue 2. Did you ever find a successful resolution for the hall effect speedometer?
I did not have any issue with the oil pan. If my memory serves me correct there are three types of oil pans in M104 24V engined cars. My engine was from W124 and it did clear the W114 subframe perfectly.

My speedo is mechanical so there's no problem and the gearbox has mechanical output. The hall sensor was in discussion because of the needed speed signal to the engine in order to rev beyond 4000 rpm's. Eventually it shoved to be a safety feature of automatic transmissions only. You brake the clutch in auto's if you rev past 4000 rpm's stand still.

Btw, sorry for this late reply. No notifications from ozbenz....
You needed an EZL from a manual gearbox vehicle. They are different.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

hismajestics
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Model you own: w114

Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by hismajestics » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 9:27 pm

AMG wrote:
hismajestics wrote:
Dave5928 wrote:I've followed this thread for some time and lusted after the M104 engine. Thanks for all the great documentation. A few questions: 1. How did you resolve the oil pan clearance issue 2. Did you ever find a successful resolution for the hall effect speedometer?
I did not have any issue with the oil pan. If my memory serves me correct there are three types of oil pans in M104 24V engined cars. My engine was from W124 and it did clear the W114 subframe perfectly.

My speedo is mechanical so there's no problem and the gearbox has mechanical output. The hall sensor was in discussion because of the needed speed signal to the engine in order to rev beyond 4000 rpm's. Eventually it shoved to be a safety feature of automatic transmissions only. You brake the clutch in auto's if you rev past 4000 rpm's stand still.

Btw, sorry for this late reply. No notifications from ozbenz....
You needed an EZL from a manual gearbox vehicle. They are different.
What is EZL? What does it do?

I do not remember any of the kind in my swap ?? Or is it the same as ECU?
//johannes

W114 Coupe w/M104 E320

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by Bartman4800 » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 9:36 pm

Electronisches Zund anLage or electronic ignition module

Make sure it is mounted on a body panel, with heat conductive paste in between to dissipate its generated heat.

Looks like this: https://www.google.com.au/search?q=m104 ... QtJKgnM%3A
Last edited by Bartman4800 on Sat 31 Oct, 2015 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by Greg in Oz » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 9:38 pm

If your M104 is from an E320, it won't have an EZL. The EZL (ignition module) was only used on engines with a distributor and KE-Jetronic injection. The only M104 to have this was the 3 litre (eg. as used in the 300E-24, 300CE-24 and 300TE-24). The later M104 (2.8 and 3.2) used HFM injection which included direct ignition (3 coils and no distributor).
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by Bartman4800 » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 9:45 pm

Thanks for setting me straight Greg, should have kept my mouth shut :bom:
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by hismajestics » Sun 01 Nov, 2015 8:52 pm

Greg in Oz wrote:If your M104 is from an E320, it won't have an EZL. The EZL (ignition module) was only used on engines with a distributor and KE-Jetronic injection. The only M104 to have this was the 3 litre (eg. as used in the 300E-24, 300CE-24 and 300TE-24). The later M104 (2.8 and 3.2) used HFM injection which included direct ignition (3 coils and no distributor).
:whistle:

Image

Image

:thumbup:
//johannes

W114 Coupe w/M104 E320

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by AMG » Mon 02 Nov, 2015 11:06 am

I did not see the pics in my original post and ignored the '320' bit - sorry about that - I have a tendency to disregard the displacements - it's an M104 engine, and internal differences are minor... but... you have a 3.2L m104.982. which means you have HFM and not KE. yes, the ECU for the manual vehicles was a different part number. for a manual gearbox you will need (among other things), MSG control unit 016 545 80 32 (FN:with catalyst, no ASR, no cruise control). alternatively you could use 013 545 15 32.

Without knowing what you are doing electrically, it's not my call to say. There are far too many interoperating modules on the HFM version to know what you have (donor vehicle spec) and have not deployed in your harness. There are fly by wire controls specific to each auto transmission (2), there are ECU (msg units) of which there are over 10 versions.

You will need the ETM specific to the donor vehicle, and revise every single connection on that schematic, to omit or bridge the necessary i/o's. It doesn't preclude the need for or use of other modules, or butchering them to achieve the required function.

Even back in the KE days, the ECU and EZL units differed on a model / drivetrain specification. for example... manual EZL vs automatic, in conjunction with an engine variant ECU. While earlier vehicles were less reliant on sensor inputs than the more modern ones, the net result was still a complicated wiring arrangement if transplanting an engine-transmission combination into a vehicle that did not originally have it fitted as an option.

However,in saying that, m103 swaps into 114/5's have been achieved from donor R107's in other countries, mostly as a 'complete swap' i.e. harness, engine, trans etc. It's straightforward for a number of reasons - vehicle interchangeable parts notwithstanding..
The M104 is basically a DOHC version of the m103... except for the M104, there are 3 engine control variants, KE-jetronic, LH-jetronic and HFM motronic. Aus market to the best of my knowledge did not get the LH-jetronic versions of the M104, and may be spared some degree of confusion - but when you have a transplant going on, literally the only way to ensure it will succeed is to have a complete running donor, and transfer that drivetrain spec in it's entireity.
Later on, the manual box would be a consideration for sure, and while I understand the purpose, sometimes you have to verify basic functions after the initial transplant before embarking further on projects.

It's not like a single component swap... you're doing everything in one hit, which triples the complexity and increases the number of potential points of failure. Many people who have considered the same swap as you, have completely ditched the MB ECU and wiring and gone with an aftermarket ECU for the very reasons mentioned above - i.e. remove complexity.

but back to the original issue... yes, there are different control units for automatic and manual transmission M104.982 engines. Just like there are on other M104 variants, as well as M102, M103, and to further complicate the issue, there are also different ecu's for different destination markets or engine specifications - e.g. US spec, or EUR m117.968 ECE/KAT. It's not a straightforward answer.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

hismajestics
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Model you own: w114

Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by hismajestics » Tue 03 Nov, 2015 6:24 am

Sorry, I'm a bit confused...

AMG, was your post to me? I mean, the car is running since fall 2014. I've had something on The MOD Squad viewtopic.php?f=30&t=19839

It now looks more or less like this.

Image

Image

Image

Image
//johannes

W114 Coupe w/M104 E320

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Re: M104 E320 in a W114 Coupe project. Misc...

Post by AMG » Tue 03 Nov, 2015 12:47 pm

No it was in reply to my previous post which others picked up on, so it's there for clarification only.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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