M189 lacking power top end???

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fe11xx
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M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 6:02 pm

Hi guys, so I've been getting the M189 running better than ever, found too much oil in the pump, vacuum leaks, idle adjustment was very out, fuel pump linkages weren't right, cold start wasn't operating properly etc etc. Starts relatively well (could be better), idles ok, but up the top of the rev range, from 4800 or so upwards, it has nothing. Infact, at 5000rpm it stops revving all together, like its got a fuel cut or something. It is running a crane ignition system which I checked and is advancing- what should timing be on these engines?
Checked the fuel filters and the fuel screen which are both now replaced, removed fuel lines checked for blockages all good. Is there an adjustment in the pump which may be out? Or something else? Engine has barely 10,000km on it since rebuild but that was some time ago, and the vehicle sat for about 4 or so years afterwards until recently. Any ideas? :dontknow: :dontknow:

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Bartman4800
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Bartman4800 » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 6:56 pm

I hope it is either the ignition, or the injection pump. (or rather something far more simpler and cheaper to fix)

There have been cases where the valve springs have gone weak, causing the valves to bounce and prevent to rev any further.

Have you checked the coil? Tonight I can look in my German workshop manual what the ignition setting should be for an M189...

Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 7:42 pm

Thanks Bart, yeah i have checked the coil its all good. Relatively new also. It has a ballasted system, which i believe is correct?

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Mercmad
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Mercmad » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 8:01 pm

I would start by advancing the ignition to the point where it starts pinging at full throttle in top gear up a hill . The M189 was designed to run on 98 octane fuel which is impossible to find in OZ. You need to run as much advance as possible.
Next i would check the throttle/injection pump correlation .
Then if it's still not running properly , check that the pump rack is moving freely.
The Mfi is very prone to varnish build up if not run on a regular basis and that includes a few FULL throttle runs to make fuel rack move through it's range.
An important thing to check is that the accelerator pedal is actually opening the throttle fully .
With the engine off ,get someone to put their foot on the accelerator to the point where it just touches the kickdown switch. At this point the throttle should be against the throttle stop screw.

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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 8:08 pm

Ok, will do. It is advancing to about 20 degrees currently, I'll try give it a bit more. Throttle is definitely opening fully, and it doesn't rev to redline in neutral either, kinda just stops at 5,000 or so.
It has been getting a good run each week now, with WOT runs as well (luckily I live just off a 90km/h zone which has no traffic lights for a while)

How do I check the pump rack?

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Bartman4800
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Bartman4800 » Tue 14 Jul, 2015 9:56 am

According to my manual, it should have the following advance settings:

At 800 rpm with and without vacuum: 8-18 deg
at 1500 without: 21-28 deg
at 3000 without: 28 deg
at 4500 without: 28 deg

I was thinking about something: I have seen ignition rotors with an inbuilt cut out system ( basically a contact and a spring) to stop over revving.
You would not have one of those do you?

Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

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Bartman4800
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Bartman4800 » Tue 14 Jul, 2015 9:58 am

fe11xx wrote:Thanks Bart, yeah i have checked the coil its all good. Relatively new also. It has a ballasted system, which i believe is correct?
With the crane system eliminating the points, you should be able to bypass the ballast resistor, giving you a higher voltage at the coil.

Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Tue 14 Jul, 2015 10:02 am

Ah yes ofcourse. I will investigate that..hmm..which makes me wonder...ill check if the module is getting 12v.

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Tue 14 Jul, 2015 10:03 am

I also think it doesnt have enough advance going from those figures. At idle it has about 8. Maybe less.

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Bartman4800
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Bartman4800 » Tue 14 Jul, 2015 11:23 am

How are you spark plugs and leads? Try spraying a bit of water mist over the leads when it is idling.
If it starts misfiring, it's time to order new leads...

Get some new spark plugs (I think it takes NGK BP6ES but double check), make sure they are the non resistor type and check the gap.

Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Tue 14 Jul, 2015 1:11 pm

Leads plugs etc are all good. Idle is good, just top end is rubbish.
It does feel like fuel though, same sort of feeling as if youre running out.

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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by New123 » Tue 14 Jul, 2015 2:38 pm

Mercmad wrote: The M189 was designed to run on 98 octane fuel which is impossible to find in OZ.
That's odd, I run Shell 'V-Power' 98-octane in both of my Mercs. Runs great on factory tuning. Maybe QLD is a 98-no-go-zone. Easy to find around here. :think:
Toby

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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Mercmad » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 8:04 am

it's not real 98...it's marketing 98. Try some C3 which is lead free 98-100 RON octane. The difference will amaze you. I own a 6.3 which will only give it's best with high octane fuel,and one of my customers has access to a lot of it . It stops the pinking and run on when hot and the difference between that and the alleged 98 octane is huge.

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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Mercmad » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 8:11 am

Ah you have a crane fireball... then all bets are off. you are not getting full advance which doesn't stop revving up in Neutral,just drops the power off at full throttle under load . Get the distributor overhauled . You can have a number of things stopping it advancing properly (full advance is 28-30 as bart has shown) .Stuck weights etc etc
Then get the compression checked
timing chain checked for wear (it can radially retard the ignition ).
Set the tappets on a dead cold engine.
Getting full throttle on a MFi doesn't mean the pump correlation is correct, you need to get someone with MFi knowledge to set it for you . Any old time porsche dealers near you with a workshop? They often have the knowledge to set the correlation and mixture tuning. Porsche was still using MFi into the 80's on their race cars.

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 8:27 am

Is there another module you would recommend? I have been planning on getting it rebuilt as it does sound a little rattly. When i was into rover v8s- scorcher distributors were the go, is this the case with benz engines too? The crane module was put in a long time ago when my dad had the car restored about 20 years ago.. Ive been fixing numerous stuff ups since.
Timing chain was replaced less than 10k ago, surely shouldnt have stretched?

Hamilton porsche is relatively close, but so is autohaus one who are apparently a specialist classic benz place. It has been to a few "specialist" places in the past with very limited success, infact ive fixed more things then they had ever picked up.

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Aegean
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Aegean » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 9:07 am

I am guessing you are in Sydney ? Have you tried MB Classic Star in Greenacre ? All they work on is older Mercs and I know he has a few M189 engines there, so he probably has a distributor you can swap over and try. Maybe take it all back to stock and start again.
W136 170s W186 300b W180 220s W109 6.3 C107 450 W116 6.9 W124 E320 Cab CLK 430
'72 Ranchero GT, Subaru SVX x 4, Subaru Vortex, DKW F89P, DKW 3=6, Skoda Octavia Super, Skoda Felicia Cabrio,
and the odd Porsche, Holden, Tatra, Buick............

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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Mercmad » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 10:17 am

I would dump the whole crane apparatus and fit a pertronix. The crane reluctor wheel is not really suited to the spacing of the Mercedes ignition. Does yours use the hole in the distributor cap to line up the dots on the rotor? . That is normally how crane units are timed ,not with the factory timing marks. plus you can't alter the dwell with a crane unit whereas you can with a pertronix by moving the pick up away from the magnet. It's hardly ever required as Pertronix have got most of their kits worked out now.
If you are in Sydney I strongly suggest you talk to John at green acre about the pump.
Normally the MFi is the last thing to be touched ,mainly to eliminate all other problems and secondly,it's not really a thing I would suggest the beginner start playing with.. :laughing6: :laughing6: :laughing6:

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 10:42 am

Cant see any holes in the cap... yeah ok ive heard of the pertronix unit ill do some research with it.
I didnt want to start playing with the pump as it is good everywhere else, just top end. Im a bit inexperienced with the old cars, im a registered bmw tech so new cars are more my field...computers and other whizz. Slowly getting the hang of it, time is the hard part.
Thanks for letting me know about john, always good to know where someone knows what theyre on about.

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Bartman4800
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Bartman4800 » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 10:44 am

Or you fit a complete 123 ignition unit. Does away with the old distributor unit altogether.
I only have experience with this on the M180 (220Sb) but it works awesome.

There is one with the correct curve for your engine (switch on the unit changes the curve)

http://www.123ignition.com.au/index.php ... cedes-benz
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 11:04 am

Saw that a while ago bart and thought it was a brilliant idea. Might look a bit funny though.

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Bartman4800
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Bartman4800 » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 11:45 am

Does this look funny?

Image

I would call it "inconspicuous"

Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

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Bartman4800
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Bartman4800 » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 11:48 am

By the way, I copied the relevant pages of the Werkstatt Handbuch for your ignition

Image

Image
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 1:02 pm

Thanks heaps for that, very much appreciated! It looks different to the distinctive m189 distributor cap which must be made of gold given how much they are. But my car is for driving, not for anyone else to pick apart at a concourse so the benefits would outweigh the asthetics..
What improvements did you notice?

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Bartman4800
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Bartman4800 » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 2:22 pm

fe11xx wrote:Thanks heaps for that, very much appreciated! It looks different to the distinctive m189 distributor cap which must be made of gold given how much they are. But my car is for driving, not for anyone else to pick apart at a concourse so the benefits would outweigh the asthetics..
What improvements did you notice?
I described it in "what did you do to your finnie today" but in short:

-Far far far stronger spark (with new Beru coil and ballast resistor bypassed). It pulled at least 40 mm.....
-Very easy initial timing setup (turn until led comes on)
-It contains ball bearings so no more play in the rotor shaft
-The spark timing is more stable (you see it bouncing around a bit with points, that's the play in the flyweight plate)
-It always starts first time (cold and warm) and if it doesn't I know it's the carburetors (unlike on yours)
-Set and forget until you are due for a new rotor and cap in 2025

Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

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Mercmad
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Mercmad » Wed 15 Jul, 2015 10:55 pm

The dizzy on a M189 is gold plated with a cap that looks just like a 1948 Ford V8 cap but cost $600 .
:laughing6:
One thing ..All engines do the same thing,they just look different so the lack of a ECU controlled injection just means that everything is mechanical rather than Computer controlled. The same parameters are used in MFI,air and water temp, engine revs Vs throttle opening etc. They also tend to run a lot richer at 5% C/O at idle. Your engine should rev easily past 6000 RPM so it definitely needs work.

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Thu 16 Jul, 2015 9:50 am

Good thing I have 2 new caps in my parts store then, bought them for $150 each brand new from some guy in South America... or somewhere like that.

Exactly what I thought, I wanted to get it running right a while ago, and the car was at Franz' place getting the rear axle rebuilt. He rekoned that that's how the pump could be calibrated and most wouldn't be revving that high anyway. I call bs, I love the sound it makes and driving it like a manual is also fun so I'm determined to get it running as its meant to.

Anyone dealt with Bower Power? He apparently rebuilds the pumps for the porsche RSRs etc

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Aegean
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Aegean » Thu 16 Jul, 2015 9:54 am

Yes, Peter is a good guy and knows his stuff.
W136 170s W186 300b W180 220s W109 6.3 C107 450 W116 6.9 W124 E320 Cab CLK 430
'72 Ranchero GT, Subaru SVX x 4, Subaru Vortex, DKW F89P, DKW 3=6, Skoda Octavia Super, Skoda Felicia Cabrio,
and the odd Porsche, Holden, Tatra, Buick............

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Thu 16 Jul, 2015 10:10 am

Fantastic. He is literally down the road from me!

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Mercmad
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Mercmad » Thu 16 Jul, 2015 10:51 am

I've dealt with Peter for years too ,and his late father in law before him . I actually gave them a lot of info on how to rebuild the mfi's although most of it was in German .. :laughing6: :laughing6:

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Thu 16 Jul, 2015 1:02 pm

Fixed it!!

I realigned the optical sensor best I could (it was a bit out, and wasn't about to drill a hole in my $600 cap) and reset the timing to give it more advance. At idle it was about 10 degrees so put it up to 18, at 4500 its now 28 degrees or there abouts with no vac advance connected. It does bounce around a little, maybe 1-2 degrees so I think the dizzy has seen better days. I think I'll put the 123 ignition in, I like the principle and I would rather not wear out my 112 dizzy and cap given how bloody expensive they are!!! Yet to test it on the road as it is currently very wet in Sydney. Thanks for your help guys :D

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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Mercmad » Fri 17 Jul, 2015 3:57 pm

i wondered whether or not it was that Crane set up. I have struck problems plenty of times over the last few decades. Before shelling out on the 123 dizzy,I was also wondering if it fits under the bonnet? There is a reason that Mercedes used that crab dissy cap.

Yes i said crab,because that is what the ford caps were calloed ,they looked like a crab...
Image

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Bartman4800
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by Bartman4800 » Fri 17 Jul, 2015 5:14 pm

Is that for an inline six with 8 cylinders? :drunken: :laughing6:
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

fe11xx
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Re: M189 lacking power top end???

Post by fe11xx » Fri 17 Jul, 2015 8:15 pm

I did consider that mercmad, it does say that it suits 300se 300sel and 300seb so im assuming it does fit. I'll contact the guy and ask him, otherwise maybe its the same size base and im meant to use the crab cap. I'll be keeping the original one anyway for originality sake. Probably get it rebuilt too and turf the crane.

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