1965 W111

1961-1968: a.k.a "Finnie" or "Heckflosse" models
190, 190D, 200, 200D, 220b, 220Sb, 220SEb, 230, 230S, 250SE coupe, 280SE coupe, 280SE 3.5 coupe, 220SEb cabrio., 250SE conv., 280SE cabrio., 280SE 3.5 Cabrio., 300SE, 300SE coupe, 300SE conv., 300SEL
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retsej
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1965 W111

Post by retsej » Tue 10 Jun, 2014 12:04 am

Hey guys, been lurking here for a bit so thought I'd signup and show you what I've been working on.
From what I can work out: 1965 W111 230S, 66k miles on the clock and a recently installed 2.5L W108 engine and auto.
Looks to have been resprayed sometime in the '90s and a dodgy homebrew LPG system installed around the same time. Much to my disgust she is on straight gas and they have removed the fuel tank & lines :(
With your help I have gotten her running a lot better.

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by retsej on Thu 12 Jun, 2014 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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drew56cus
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by drew56cus » Tue 10 Jun, 2014 7:56 am

That looks great in silver? What colour is the interior?
Do you want a normal fuel tank? Is the 250 motor injected or carbie? I think I have a tank from a diesel car here, and some guys at Toowoomba I know should have a petrol tank. A tank from a 108 can work too and gives extra fuel capacity.
Freight across the country won't be cheap though...
Cheers,
Drew
Drew
'65 220SE 4.5 Frankenbenz finnie :)
'65 220SE/C (#1 project - Tenorite grey)
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retsej
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by retsej » Tue 10 Jun, 2014 7:05 pm

The interior is red, although the tops of the seats are faded. I don't have any really good photos of her yet. As you can see from one of the pics though, people tend to pose for photos with her...


the 250 motor is carby, although its a gas setup so I really need to pull it apart and see if its bolted on top of the twin carb inlet manifold. It has a dirty big ugly adapter plate in the way.
Glad to know a 108 tank can fit, that clears it up after a bit of searching/googling. I need everything for the conversion though, pump, lines, level sender in the back and carbies, lines etc up front. So it won't be a quick process. It might be easier to find a W111/108 being parted in WA

I've been offered the running gear out of another W108 recently, the 2.8L straight 6 engine, box and rear end. I see the W108 comes with disc rear end, will the diff ratio be the same as my current setup ? (I assume my car has the stock W111 rear end currently, although I haven't confirmed). I can't have the fuel tank unfortunately and its an injected motor, so it doesn't help my predicament.

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retsej
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by retsej » Thu 12 Jun, 2014 9:23 pm

Just updated my first post with image links rather than attachments.

Anyway, I posted up here because the car was running well and i finally felt happy to show you guys

Last night she started blowing some smoke.... Today:

Image





:banghead:

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thirstymerc
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by thirstymerc » Fri 13 Jun, 2014 10:22 am

Ah bummer. Blown head gasket?
Steve
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ansteadeh
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by ansteadeh » Fri 13 Jun, 2014 1:38 pm

Definately

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Bartman4800
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by Bartman4800 » Fri 13 Jun, 2014 6:46 pm

I remember now, that was the car that was for sale in South Perth a while ago.
The friend of the seller was adamant it was an LPI car, apparently it is registered as such...
It belonged to an old geezer.


Anyway, it was sold before I could organize a viewing. So you must be the lucky bastard who got it :dance:

Good luck with the engine, a blown head gasket can open up a whole can of worms....


Bart
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by Mercmad » Fri 13 Jun, 2014 8:08 pm

I'll bet the head has corroded out( just the thing for Friday the 13th) ,and if that is the case you would be ahead of the game getting that 280 motor ,or even a M110 twin cam and trans. The 230S has rear disc brakes doesn't it? if not ,it's a bolt in job to fit the disc brake diff from a W108 and use the master cylinder to suit.

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retsej
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by retsej » Sun 15 Jun, 2014 6:25 pm

Bartman4800 wrote:I remember now, that was the car that was for sale in South Perth a while ago.
The friend of the seller was adamant it was an LPI car, apparently it is registered as such...
It belonged to an old geezer.


Anyway, it was sold before I could organize a viewing. So you must be the lucky bastard who got it :dance:

Good luck with the engine, a blown head gasket can open up a whole can of worms....


Bart
LPI? The former owner was apparently the owner of the Perth Heat.

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retsej
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by retsej » Sun 15 Jun, 2014 7:15 pm

Mercmad wrote:I'll bet the head has corroded out( just the thing for Friday the 13th) ,and if that is the case you would be ahead of the game getting that 280 motor ,or even a M110 twin cam and trans. The 230S has rear disc brakes doesn't it? if not ,it's a bolt in job to fit the disc brake diff from a W108 and use the master cylinder to suit.
I've been around cars/forums for a few years and I know the usual adage of "do a search, noob" but often you can come across conflicting information so its nice to confirm with someone who actually knows stuff. I have read a bunch of your posts while stalking this forum and a few of them have helped me out already on this old girl. Can you confirm if the "engine is balanced with the flywheel/torque converter" story is an old wives tale or true? Should I put the 280 engine and box into my car as one unit? Now I just hope the replacement engine isn't in the same situation.

Also I've looked around for replacement bushings for the suspension but can't seem to find anything, do you guys normally use a particular aftermarket vendor for them or are they normally replaced with OEM Merc parts?

Haven't had the wheel off but it looks like a drum rear to my untrained eye

Image

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Mercmad
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by Mercmad » Sun 15 Jun, 2014 8:09 pm

Yes Drums, they work OK though . All merc engines were balanced and if fitting a new flywheel ( not the convertor or fluid coupler ) it should be balanced to match the old one . The reason is that mercedes built a damn good engine but that long six cylinder crank will whip and crack if the damper or flywheel are swapped about . When rebuilding an engine it's normal to rebalance everything anyway .The cost is pretty negligible when using genny merc parts as everything is pretty close in weight . I have had a few (expensive) cranks rejected because of cracking and on all of them they had had different flywheels fitted,including the conversions from hydrak to manual trans on the roundies.

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Re: 1965 W111

Post by John Green » Sun 15 Jun, 2014 9:18 pm

retsej wrote:Also I've looked around for replacement bushings for the suspension but can't seem to find anything, do you guys normally use a particular aftermarket vendor for them or are they normally replaced with OEM Merc parts?
www.mbspares.com.au PH 1300 787 300, we would have all the front and rear suspension parts in stock.
Inaugural OZBENZ national meet this September, all welcome to attend. https://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=25165

M.B Spares & Service 14-16 Lyell St, Fyshwick ACT. Ph 02 6239 1099

http://mbspares.com.au - Supporting Australia's Mercedes-Benz Enthusiasts.

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Re: 1965 W111

Post by Mercmad » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 5:43 pm

Merc bits are the only ones to use. They last around 30-40 years so they are worthwhile investment.

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1965 W111

Post by ansteadeh » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 8:23 pm

Retsej in support of Mercmad, it is really good practice to have the engine balanced when converting from auto to manual. This means dismantling of the motor and removal of the crankshaft. You must send everything that is basically in the line from the harmonic balancer thru to the clutch pressure plate. The balance shop will do it piece by piece, adding and balancing components as they go. Search this forum for M130 balancing and you'll find a bit of material I have previously posted about this. I also got my pistons and con rods weighed as well to ensure I didn't have too many grams variance between the heaviest and lightest. Basically all of the reciprocating parts should be as smooth as possible to avoid vibration and damage.

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Re: 1965 W111

Post by green 111 » Wed 25 Jun, 2014 12:43 pm

I purchased a Finnie Rally car last year with a 280SE M130 motor, and had a mishap with the engine doing a Rallysprint!

The outcome was a cactus motor!! It came with scored bores and a banana shaped head which was machined flat to mate to the head. Hard to spot until it's apart but it sounded a little tappetty.

That caused broken valve seats with anything over 5000rpm. I think I revved it to 6000 once your honour.

Anyway, blocks are available but good heads are a little thin on the ground. I managed to obtain a 250SE head which will up the BHP a little, but I am waiting for oversize pistons ex Germany.

The process has been slow but I am really looking forward to the outcome and just driving it on the bitumen and gravel.

The car also has a 108 rear end which provides better braking with the 4 wheel discs, and 15 inch W202 rims. The speedo reads low and needs recalibration.

The increase in power is substantial .... I've heard that it could be as high as 200bhp, up from 120bhp of the 220seb. When the 250/280 motors used to be overhauled, they cut out part of the crown of the pistons, to maintain the compression ratio once the head had been machined. Also, the 250 and 280 heads (there are 2 - an early model and a late model) are different plus the injected and carby heads are also different, so take care when sourcing your parts.

Would love to run a marathon with it ....... Paris to Peking 2016 anybody???

Good luck with the rebuild.

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Re: 1965 W111

Post by Mercmad » Wed 25 Jun, 2014 8:23 pm

The biggest problem caused by folks machining heads was that the cam would no longer turn when the head was torqued down. Thats why the manuals say to turn the cam by hand after torque the head . If it doesn't turn,find the reason.Also,6000 RPM is the stock rev power band peak. So If you are building something to really move, think about moving the torque peak higher which means you could be revving around 7000 RPM or higher.
I have been rebuilding a Jag V12 lately and the combustion is just like a M127,180 etc . And this is the revised version of the V12 too.

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Re: 1965 W111

Post by retsej » Thu 10 Jul, 2014 8:05 pm

Sorry for the long reply, have been away for work.

The previous owner had some form of verbal handshake agreement warranty with his mechanic that should "apparently" cover the issue. it all sounds a little vague to me so I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime I picked up the W108 280 drivetrain. I didn't realise the inj/carby heads were different, that's a little annoying as the engine I have picked up is injected. I was hoping I could bolt my carby manifolds up to 2.8 and drive away. More reasearch needed...

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Re: 1965 W111

Post by Mercmad » Thu 10 Jul, 2014 8:16 pm

You may run into another problem with the injection motor too. A lot of them were put off the road because of leaky heads. They corroded easily when ordinary water was used instead of any sort of anti corrosion coolant. You can't find 2nd hand heads anywhere ,they haven't been available for years although new ones are now being offered ($$$$$) .
you would have to block off the pump mount and the injection ports in the head. If I were in your shoes I would be installing a M110 twin cam engine. Same basic block so it's almost a bolt in fit, and there are plenty of W126 280SE's out there going dirt cheap which would make a great donor vehicle.

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drew56cus
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by drew56cus » Fri 11 Jul, 2014 6:33 am

Mercmad, can you please elaborate on what else is required to convert from carbs to a FI motor?
- fuel pump
- wiring
- anything with the front prop shaft
- trans cross member
Cheers, Drew
Drew
'65 220SE 4.5 Frankenbenz finnie :)
'65 220SE/C (#1 project - Tenorite grey)
'64 300SE/C (#2 project)
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retsej
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by retsej » Sat 12 Jul, 2014 7:15 pm

ok so obviously the go is to try find an entire W126 going cheap so that I have all the bits I need. I had a quick look on gumtree and there is a couple there for not much, but with 400-500,000km on the clock. Does the high mileage just open my wallet up to more problems?

Is there other engine swaps you'd consider as not too difficult? later model V8? Turn it into a commodore with an LSx? Maybe a 2JZ is the way to go...

What about the engine out of the 380se? Something like this, shame its on the other side of the country
http://www.carsales.com.au/private/deta ... =1&sdmvc=1

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Re: 1965 W111

Post by Mercmad » Mon 14 Jul, 2014 10:13 pm

The W126 is the easiest way to go. Get a complete running car you can drive and make sure the trans is OK with no flaring or slipping and the engine starts and runs without noise (they have mechanical tappets so it's no big deal to adjust them) . You shouldn't pay too much for one and if it comes with genuine service history that is a bonus.
you should carefully pull out the W126 engine wiring loom . You don't need the rest of the wiring for the lights and so on.
The fuel pump.filter and accumulator are in a pack at the rear of a W126 so you need that plus the lead which runs to the rear . In the fuse box is a relay for the pump. It shuts the pump off when there is no tach signal from the engine. it's all pretty simple and what i do is pull the fuse box apart,undo the wires and transfer the mount and relay over to the the finny . On the finny you use most of the wiring except the generator /alternator . (use the W1126 wiring here because it's heavier rating)
Mercedes wiring is pretty good and normally I never find too many problems with it,it's always the things on the end of the wires and the idiots who chop holes in the looms to connect radios etc that cause problems.
OK thats the picky stuff.
The oil gauge and temp gauge on the finny can be screwed straight into a M110 engine in the usual places.
The heavy part...
you can use the original finny radiator because it's the same capacity as the W126 .
The mount arms off your original should bolt straight onto your new engine. The trans mount also bolts right up to the trans.
Because your finny is a 230 it should have a larger trans tunnel but the area over the flex disc needs to altered to fit the bigger disc.
The front part of the W126 drive shaft needs to be fitted to the front half of the finnys drive shaft ( they are split in two peices )
I'm not a fan of commode V6's, one of my old neighbors has great biz swapping out shot engines with new ones ,hundreds of them every year.
The m110 ,when looked after with oil changes and proper coolant will run forever. My dad bought one years ago with 120,000 on the clock. When we got rid of it 12 years ago it had 700,000 on the clock and it was still running around here last year. We only ever changed the oil and in all those K's only ever changed two sets of plugs. Automatic just kept on running.


.

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retsej
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by retsej » Tue 11 Nov, 2014 2:39 am

Well the good news is, the Merc is back in my garage
The bad news is, the head is in the boot and my wallet is lighter.

Can anyone recommend a good mechanic in Perth who can have a look at her?

Thanks

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Re: 1965 W111

Post by 70499 » Tue 11 Nov, 2014 9:26 am

http://mbstarmotors.com.au

Just of the fwy in Balcatta
Brad.

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Tony From West Oz
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by Tony From West Oz » Tue 11 Nov, 2014 12:02 pm

70499 wrote:http://mbstarmotors.com.au

Just of the fwy in Balcatta
+1
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by scorchi0 » Tue 11 Nov, 2014 7:18 pm

retsej wrote:Well the good news is, the Merc is back in my garage
The bad news is, the head is in the boot and my wallet is lighter.

Can anyone recommend a good mechanic in Perth who can have a look at her?

Thanks
Walter at Auto Exclusive - Edward St, East Perth
Quite a lot of MB WA car club members take their older Benzes to him.
1991 S124 300TE - Smoke Silver
1993 C124 320CE - Brilliant Silver
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retsej
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by retsej » Tue 11 Nov, 2014 11:20 pm

Thanks guys, will do the ring around and see just how excited they are to pick up someones half finished job...

appreciated

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retsej
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by retsej » Thu 18 Jun, 2015 6:51 pm

As usual, life often gets in the way of these things.

So this week I finally took the head into a machine shop to get looked at, and their response was that it was one of the worst cases of corrosion they have seen, and that its probably (financially) a better option to source a new head rather than fixing the existing one. I've had a bit of a look on gumtree, ebay and have sent off an email to MBspares to see if they have something I can work with. Anyone else got any leads on a carby sohc head for me? I'd still prefer to keep it fairly standard before investigating other options.

Ta

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Re: 1965 W111

Post by Bartman4800 » Thu 18 Jun, 2015 7:15 pm

Sorry,

I lost the plot halfway through this topic. Which engine did you want to rebuild? The 250 carb that was in there when you bought it?

Pm me if I can help you with general stuff. I have 2 finnies ( 1 for parts) and live in the Kwinana area.


Regards, Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

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retsej
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by retsej » Fri 19 Jun, 2015 9:13 am

Correct, the carby 230/250 combo

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Bartman4800
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by Bartman4800 » Fri 19 Jun, 2015 12:20 pm

So the bottom half of the engine is 230? You better get a 230 head then.

I know that Chris in Melbourne had a few heads for these.

try this: http://mbparts.denyer.net/


Regards, Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

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Mercmad
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by Mercmad » Fri 19 Jun, 2015 8:56 pm

The 230 head and cam are actually the better performing parts too. I have a MFi 250SE head but it's not cheap.

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retsej
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Re: 1965 W111

Post by retsej » Sat 20 Jun, 2015 2:59 pm

I had actually found that denyer.net site but wasn't sure if it was still maintained / legit. Figured the mbparts guys were a good place to start.
And to confirm, its a 230s with a 230 head (damaged) and 250 bottom end (apparently good).

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