190e 2.3 -16v

190E 2.3-16, 190E 2.5-16, 190E Evolution 1 & 2 models
16v specific information.
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drw190
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190e 2.3 -16v

Post by drw190 » Sat 22 Mar, 2008 7:04 pm

hi, i have a 190e 16v that i am going to rebuild soon. does anyone know of someone that has done this. also where i can get some good cam gears from????

cheers

david

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Kiwi108
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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by Kiwi108 » Tue 25 Mar, 2008 6:23 pm

Do you mean sprockets?
Darryl from Kiwiland

Gretel 71 280SE
Hansel 86 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth -RIP
Junker 69 280SE Organ Donor
Ralfalfa, 99 Alfa Romeo 156 Twinspark...
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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by Des » Tue 25 Mar, 2008 7:01 pm

try the Forum Sponsor
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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by AMG » Tue 25 Mar, 2008 7:42 pm

see my signature :) If you're talking Vernier Sprockets, ask John, He might know how to get them.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by drw190 » Thu 27 Mar, 2008 7:58 pm

JoeB wrote:see my signature :) If you're talking Vernier Sprockets, ask John, He might know how to get them.

i mean the standard merc cam sprockets!! do they sell after market ones???

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by Kiwi108 » Fri 28 Mar, 2008 10:32 am

These are the part numbers for the cam sprockets, etc.

Exhaust Sprocket MB part # 102 052 12 01
Intake Sprocket MB part # 102 050 03 04
Intemediate Shaft Sprocket MB Part # 102 050 03 05
Crankshaft Sprocket MB Part # 102 052 01 03
Darryl from Kiwiland

Gretel 71 280SE
Hansel 86 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth -RIP
Junker 69 280SE Organ Donor
Ralfalfa, 99 Alfa Romeo 156 Twinspark...
every morning when I turn the key, I wonder what car He'll be today".

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by drw190 » Mon 31 Mar, 2008 9:19 pm

thanks mate,

they are pretty expensive!!!

just trying to get some good s/h ones!!!

i really need the dissy gear!

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by drw190 » Mon 02 Jun, 2008 9:57 pm

i still havent found any!!!!!

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by Kiwi108 » Tue 03 Jun, 2008 6:51 am

Hi David

What exactly is wrong with the engine?
Darryl from Kiwiland

Gretel 71 280SE
Hansel 86 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth -RIP
Junker 69 280SE Organ Donor
Ralfalfa, 99 Alfa Romeo 156 Twinspark...
every morning when I turn the key, I wonder what car He'll be today".

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by drw190 » Fri 13 Jun, 2008 10:50 pm

its just a bit rattly!
i took out the tensioner and put it in one notch, it was quiet only for a day, then went noisy again!!

my question is do you set the tension on the tensioner?? and how tight should the chain be??

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by John Green » Sat 14 Jun, 2008 8:46 am

Expensive or not, you are playing with fire when it comes to a fault in the chain set up on these. The 2.3lt version of this engine has a single row timing chain and has a very bad habit of busting. The tensioner is the ratchet type and providing it is working correctly will ratchet out to the right spot. My guess is what you did was rachet it out one click to many and put undue strain on the chain, that is why it went noisy quickly. Either park the car until you can afford the repair or start buying lotto tickets. Here are my prices on the part number quoted above:

Exhaust Sprocket MB part # 102 052 12 01 Not in the price list anymore.
Intake Sprocket MB part # 102 050 03 04 $950.00
Intemediate Shaft Sprocket MB Part # 102 050 03 05 $395.00
Crankshaft Sprocket MB Part # 102 052 01 03 $97.50

However having said all this i suspect that some of these numbers are wrong, what is your engine number?? The number quoted lok like the parts for the 2.5lt version with double row chain......
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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by Kiwi108 » Sat 14 Jun, 2008 9:03 am

The chain tension is set automatically. The first models of 2.3-16 had a problem with the cam chain because the tensioners were faulty. These were replaced by the factory and the problem was solved. The single row chain is reasonably durable, however if it gives, you are in a world of hurt -just as you would be if a cam belt went. Be VERY VERY careful when removing and replacing the tensioner unit- as valve timing can be lost if the untensioned chain jumps a tooth, and an incorrectly re-setting and fitting the tensioner unit can snap the tensioner rail (happened to me AND to a 2.3-16 Targa Car raced by the guy I brought my one off http://www.classiccar.co.nz/articles/be ... rth?page=3).

To be safe, I replaced the cam chain in Hansel around 30,000 km ago and it was only slightly quieter. What did change was the car picked up a bit of mid-range, so I deduced the chain was somewhat stretched.

These engines are mechanically noisy, they dont' sound like sewing machines. They are essentially a detuned racing engine. When I first heard mine I thought "Uh-oh, that doesn't sound good". The car went for a pre-purchase check with a Mercedes specialist and no mention was made of the top end noise, so I queried the engineer, his response was that the 'rattle' (which sounds a bit like ball bearings rolling in a tin -well, not quite, or a de-tuned version of heavy hail on a tin roof) is normal.

In fact he said he'd be worried if it DIDN'T make noise. The other advice he gave me was not to 'pussy it', as long as maintence was up to scratch. Every other 190E 16v I have met since sounds the same. Mine sounds the same after the 40,000km I've added to it; I give it the occassional rev to redline in 2nd or 3rd. Remember only sewing machines should sound like sewing machines.

The part numbers come off the Russian Site and are for 2.3 parts, however if you can get the 2.5 duplex chain and sprockets, you should think about fitting these, as fitting the 2.5 sprockets and chain to a 2.3 is, I gather an easy and worthwhile swap. Still just replacing the cam chain will give peace of mind.

If you are really worried, you should take it to someone who has some experience of these beasties and get their opinion and heed their advice. These cars are so different to the standard 190E -engine, ECU, fuel injection, suspension, steering, interior... not just the obvious stuff like body kits and head.
Darryl from Kiwiland

Gretel 71 280SE
Hansel 86 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth -RIP
Junker 69 280SE Organ Donor
Ralfalfa, 99 Alfa Romeo 156 Twinspark...
every morning when I turn the key, I wonder what car He'll be today".

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by AMG » Sat 14 Jun, 2008 9:37 am

Daz,
Not wanting to upset you, but I beg to differ on the level of mechanical noise you mention.
my neighbour had one of these brand new when I was younger, and they are only ever so slightly noisier than a standard 4cyl MB. they don't sound like a diesel.

If you have a chain issue, the safest thing to do is replace, replace and replace any worn parts with new. No it won't be cheap.
But the situation is no different to one of these, but without the pin.
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Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Kiwi108
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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by Kiwi108 » Sat 14 Jun, 2008 9:55 am

Hi Joe

I'm unlikely to get upset. :D These things are 20 + years old now and I wouldn't think anything mechanical that old (save a freshly blueprinted engine) would sound like new. I guess what I'm trying to suggest is that the comparatively noisy top end in these things is common, and not automatically and indication that bits are going to explode. It seems from experience with several 2.3-16s to be normal at the milages these car are now at. Mine is at 260,000 kms and still runs good and hard when 5000 rpm +.

The point you make about the cam chain is correct -replacement is the right thing to do- it's the weakest link in the engine, and if you don't know its age, you should replace. That being said, if the regular mantenance is done these engines are reliable as decapitation. They were built to handle 300+ bhp, so 187 ain't stressing it too much.
image_homepage_hero.jpg
Sounds are difficult things to describe, and 'rattle' isn't a good word to use -what it means is subjective. My first impression on hearing a 2.3-16 was surprise, having been driving either my old 280SE or new company cars, neither of which were good comparisons. It was certainly 'rattly' in comparision to the fresh V6 in the VY Company-o-dore.

The noise isn't like a diesel -which I would call clatter. It sounds like it has a chain, sprockets and bucket followers, all in motion -It sounds like the top end of every GS and GSX 4-cyl Suzuki I've ever owned - it sounds very busy, mechanically noisy.
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Darryl from Kiwiland

Gretel 71 280SE
Hansel 86 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth -RIP
Junker 69 280SE Organ Donor
Ralfalfa, 99 Alfa Romeo 156 Twinspark...
every morning when I turn the key, I wonder what car He'll be today".

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by AMG » Sat 14 Jun, 2008 1:00 pm

Ahh ok, I follow your line of thinking now.
I didn't want to get confused between timing chain 'chatter' and valve/cam / tappet / bucket noises, which are audibly different ( to someone who knows or has heard the sound before) Like you, I've had my fair share of 'noisy' bikes too, Laverda Jota and SF 750 engines were air-cooled and had a very specific chain and tappet noise. Interestingly, when you heard the chain tensioner ticking, it was time to change the chain, tensioner and guides! (funny about that eh?)
The Ducati square case bevel I had was obviously desmo and gear driven, but nonetheless, you always had to do the regular valve clearance check every 5000, and only adjust if the timing on the front cylinder was going (you can tell on a 90 degree desmo twin, because it starts to sound like a harley when it's out of tune) - not fun on a bevel the first few times, but easy once you know how to do it properly. Ducati never improved it on the pantah's or even on the testastretta, even though it was a belt instead of gears.

Because this thread is making mention of the tensioner and the clatter, I'm really backing John's expert advice on this one, even though I haven't seen the motor or heard the noise. I know we're all of the same mind if the noise is chain rattle. Park it, get it fixed, or pay later - or as John so comically put it, start buying Lotto Tickets. It'll probably cost a div.1 prize pool to fix if the motor hand-grenades 8)

It's interesting that this thread grew legs yesterday again, I just picked up Schultz after a major service, which included top end. I do practice what I preach - chain, guides + other bits (tensioner, sprockets etc) and it isn't cheap on an M117, and I'm not made of money either, but the motor is now almost silent, compared to how it was. I'll drop details in another thread in 126 section later.

Have you posted pics of Hansel ? I don't think I've seen them, maybe I have missed them in between rabid bouts of posting... :D
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by Kiwi108 » Sat 14 Jun, 2008 1:48 pm

Here's Hansel
IMG_0929.jpg
IMG_0928.jpg
IMG_0927.jpg
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Darryl from Kiwiland

Gretel 71 280SE
Hansel 86 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth -RIP
Junker 69 280SE Organ Donor
Ralfalfa, 99 Alfa Romeo 156 Twinspark...
every morning when I turn the key, I wonder what car He'll be today".

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by John Green » Sat 14 Jun, 2008 1:50 pm

OK, been to work since last post. The part numbers quoted are for the 2.5lt version which has a double row chain.

Conversion to the double row chain is not a simple as just the sprokets. There are heaps of parts that are differant, for example the front timing cover and the oil pump as it is a higher volume pump. The safest bet it to just replace the single row chain with new sprokets and make sure to use genuine parts. Won't price it all here, but the correct sprokets are:

Inlet sproket A102 052 06 01 $575.00
Exhaust sproket A102 050 01 04 $725.00
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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by Kiwi108 » Sat 14 Jun, 2008 3:46 pm

John Green wrote:OK, been to work since last post. The part numbers quoted are for the 2.5lt version which has a double row chain.

Conversion to the double row chain is not a simple as just the sprokets. There are heaps of parts that are differant, for example the front timing cover and the oil pump as it is a higher volume pump. The safest bet it to just replace the single row chain with new sprokets and make sure to use genuine parts.
Thanks for setting that straight John. Can imagine the timing cover and integral oil pump would be cubic $$$ new and as rare as rocking horse deposits 2nd hand.
Darryl from Kiwiland

Gretel 71 280SE
Hansel 86 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth -RIP
Junker 69 280SE Organ Donor
Ralfalfa, 99 Alfa Romeo 156 Twinspark...
every morning when I turn the key, I wonder what car He'll be today".

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by drw190 » Sun 15 Jun, 2008 11:16 am

ok cheers for that!!!

i have been ummming and arring as to put it down , or just replace the tensioner!!

but i think i will pull it down!! what i susspect is that the plastic guide rails are split and when you put the tensioner in appears to be tight but a few minutes after they must open up or something??

just another thing! why would i have to replace the cam sprockets??? the dissy drive gear is worn! i can see that woth a torch, but the sprockets seem to be good!! in a box when i bought the car ( i imported it from Wales as a non-runner) where the original cam sprockets - very badly worn!!

if i have to buy the 2 cam sprockets, $2000, + dissy drive gear $600, crankshaft sprocket $250, chain $200 ,tensioner $400, rails $400 i'll be up 4 four grand!!!!

boy, im not trying to get out of it, but hopefully i can reuse the cam sprockets!! i know im up for $1000, but not $4000!!!

also the tensioner sets itself as you said!! i 'll think ill put up some photos when its done!!!

i do appreciate all your guys help too!!!


David

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by John Green » Sun 15 Jun, 2008 12:19 pm

The cam sprokets wear very badly, however it sounds like you may not need to do them, the last owner obviously suffered this pain....
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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by oz coz » Sat 21 Jun, 2008 5:48 pm

Some interesting snippets in this post. Just to add a little hopefully to help drw190, if you cannot fully authenticate when the chain and chain guides were changed, do these before you do anything. I have seen the result of a broken guide on these engines- six of the eight inlet valve heads were broken off after losing the argument with the tops of the pistons. Replacement cylinder head was required, new pistons etc etc. Pretty sad stuff.

The comparison with the sound of the valve shims in this engine with the sound of the shims in a Suzuki 550 / 650 motor is correct. In practice the 13mm diameter shims from either the 550GSX or 650GSX(I can't remember if these model names are totally correct or which one has this size) are supposed to be able to be used as a direct replacement in this MB engine and cost a little less. Some of the US forums quote this as an acceptable experience.

About 18 months ago a set of new camshaft sprokets were advertised for sale on E-Bay by someone in Queensland and were apparently not sold. I don't know how long these details are held by E-Bay but it may be worth a try .

If you decide to replace the chain and chain guide, especially heed what John Green said and use only genuine MB parts.
oz coz

1986 190E 2.3-16 Blue-Black
1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by drw190 » Tue 24 Jun, 2008 6:04 pm

yes, i wont be cutting any corners!

i will be pulling it apart this week!

wait 4 the pics!!!!

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by Kiwi108 » Wed 25 Jun, 2008 5:25 pm

oz coz wrote:The comparison with the sound of the valve shims in this engine with the sound of the shims in a Suzuki 550 / 650 motor is correct. In practice the 13mm diameter shims from either the 550GSX or 650GSX
The valve shims are actually 13mm dia shims from Kawasaki, they fit a range of bucket over shim Kwaka bike engines from the early 80s including the z650, GPz750 and the GPz550. The part number is 92025 - XXXX the suffix relates to the different thicknesses. The shims are hardened and available in 0.05mm increments from 2.05mm-3.10mm. They are NZ$11 a pop here in Auckland. I've also heard that 13mm Peugeot shims also do the trick.
Darryl from Kiwiland

Gretel 71 280SE
Hansel 86 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth -RIP
Junker 69 280SE Organ Donor
Ralfalfa, 99 Alfa Romeo 156 Twinspark...
every morning when I turn the key, I wonder what car He'll be today".

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by Kiwi108 » Thu 26 Jun, 2008 2:02 pm

drw190 wrote:yes, i wont be cutting any corners!

i will be pulling it apart this week!

wait 4 the pics!!!!
Hey David
This may be of help when you come to check the valve clearances.
Valve Clearance Checking Sheet.pdf
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Darryl from Kiwiland

Gretel 71 280SE
Hansel 86 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth -RIP
Junker 69 280SE Organ Donor
Ralfalfa, 99 Alfa Romeo 156 Twinspark...
every morning when I turn the key, I wonder what car He'll be today".

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by oz coz » Thu 26 Jun, 2008 8:24 pm

Thanks Kiwi108 for the correct info. I guess we now know whose memory is a bit suspect.I should have checked my files first but thought my recall would suffice.Apologies all round.

Jim Georgiadis of Racing Resources at Moorebank in Sydney is the acknowledged local expert in rebuilding these motors but is very very expensive. However he is very thorough. He was the spannerman when Phil Ward raced these cars in the 80's (using my memory again so be wary).
oz coz

1986 190E 2.3-16 Blue-Black
1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: 190e 2.3 -16v

Post by Kiwi108 » Thu 26 Jun, 2008 8:36 pm

No worries, Mate. :D
Darryl from Kiwiland

Gretel 71 280SE
Hansel 86 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth -RIP
Junker 69 280SE Organ Donor
Ralfalfa, 99 Alfa Romeo 156 Twinspark...
every morning when I turn the key, I wonder what car He'll be today".

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