What is a 16V worth in Oz?

190E 2.3-16, 190E 2.5-16, 190E Evolution 1 & 2 models
16v specific information.
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Greg in Oz
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What is a 16V worth in Oz?

Post by Greg in Oz » Tue 03 Jun, 2014 11:12 pm

Joe's comments in another topic (at viewtopic.php?f=82&t=19369#p139038) has me wondering.

So, what is a tidy 16V worth in Oz today? A reasonably tidy "regular" 8 valve four cylinder (or even 6 cylinder) 190E can be had for not much more than parts value now (which I believe makes them great buying if you choose wisely), however, add the Cosworth developed 16V engine, sharper handling, body enhancements, sports interior, motorsport history, relative rarity and everything else that makes a 2.3-16 and 2.5-16, and the values are very different.

Having not been sold in Oz new means every one that has come here has been privately imported, so numbers are relatively few. Of those, only a small percentage are still tidy and original examples as many have been irreversibly modified or written off due to rust or being crashed.

I know a car is only worth what a buyer is willing to pay and values are easier to determine in markets where more survive, but what do enthusiasts here believe a 16V model in good condition is worth? I'm talking about an original example with good body, paint and interior, preferably with documented history and without any serious (non-reversible) modifications.

Let's hear your thoughts.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Hendrik
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Re: What is a 16V worth in Oz?

Post by Hendrik » Wed 04 Jun, 2014 11:46 am

The value of older Mercs seem to be going up, more so for the fancier models eg 6.3, so it would stand to reason that good examples of the cosworth would also be on the up.
Far as value goes, depends on a lot of factors, original Oz delivery, which one it is, cosworth/evo/evo2, condition and so on.

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Greg in Oz
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Re: What is a 16V worth in Oz?

Post by Greg in Oz » Wed 04 Jun, 2014 7:08 pm

Hendrik wrote:The value of older Mercs seem to be going up, more so for the fancier models eg 6.3, so it would stand to reason that good examples of the cosworth would also be on the up.
Far as value goes, depends on a lot of factors, original Oz delivery, which one it is, cosworth/evo/evo2, condition and so on.
Oz delivery could be difficult as I don't believe any 16v models were delivered here new.

As for which ones, I'm only talking values of the "regular" 2.3-16 and 2.5-16 models as the Evo and EvoII were LHD only with just 502 examples of each being manufactured. The only one I have seen here is the EvoII in the Fox collection that I suspect could not be purchased from its owner at any price.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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oz coz
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Re: What is a 16V worth in Oz?

Post by oz coz » Thu 05 Jun, 2014 10:57 am

About the only certainty is that the 16v would cost more in Oz than in Europe.

Looking through copies of the various Classic car magazines in England has seen some selling price hikes in recent months. A good looking 2.5-15 with a recently refurbished cylinder head was retailing for £9,500 and a month later a nice looking 2.3-16 was retailing for about £11,000. What the wholesale equivalent is not something that I know.

The value of 16v cars is pretty closely aligned with their condition which is much the same for most MB's.

16v cars seem to fall into two categories - cherished and maintained or flogged / modified / trashed / minimal maintenance to non-original standards. They can be costly to maintain which would force some to take the latter direction.

Certainly there seems to have been a recent heightened interest in the 16v cars. I have had a number of unsolicited offers for my 16v recently despite its infrequent appearances in public. All offers have been from people previously unknown to me.

Whilst most 16v models came to Oz in used condition, one I know of came in new but was still a private import.

A good one is very hard to find. The good ones are usually so cherished that the owner won't sell it unless he has another one to replace it.
oz coz

1986 190E 2.3-16 Blue-Black
1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Greg in Oz
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Re: What is a 16V worth in Oz?

Post by Greg in Oz » Sun 15 Jun, 2014 11:28 pm

oz coz wrote:...A good one is very hard to find. The good ones are usually so cherished that the owner won't sell it unless he has another one to replace it.
Part of my reason for starting this topic was that I was negotiating my latest purchase (see viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3225&start=75#p139385 ) and was wondering about the values of 16V models in Oz.

The value of former ownership by an F1 world champion (as is the case with my 2.3-16) was behind my post at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=19207&#p137640 and I'm sure I will for years to come wonder what additional value will be added to my car with Alan Jones having been its first owner.

As for an owner not selling a good one unless he has another to replace it, that was the case with the seller of the car I purchased. He also owns a 2.5-16.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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AMG
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Re: What is a 16V worth in Oz?

Post by AMG » Thu 31 Jul, 2014 10:20 am

I think the market for these cars in Australia is relatively small, but the demand is strong - however the real strength in demand is purely for the unmodified examples with a verifiable service history / logbooks etc.

Of the main considerations, there are but a few which have a significant impact on the value:
1. Body condition (rust free) & interior (clean, unmolested, everything working)
2. Mechanical condition (service history)
3. Transmission type
4. Actual Mileage (proven)

and of course the big kicker - is it a 201.034 or 201.035

Quite obviously the 2.5 is a rarer commodity, but that rarity does come with quite a few mechanical gotchas.

With regards to your vehicle Greg,
Having the Provenance of Our only 'Modern-era' F1 champion Alan Jones will no doubt carry a hefty price premium in years to come, and it could even be the case in (many) years time that the provenance itself may be worth more than the car - especially if some of the foreign vehicle sales where a significant F1 drivers provenance is observed.

Now that Sir Jack has passed, and his incredible feats of engineering / driving are coming to be realized and appreciated more widely by the public, it will be only a matter of time before the other Racing drivers fame and their associated vehicles start attracting premium values in the market also.

You could also argue that it takes a drivers passing before the values escalate. Observe the original HDT commodores of the 1980's, whose values were in the mire until PB departed. All of a sudden the resurgence in value to over 5 times their previous asking prices. I know this for fact, because I sold mine not long before PB passed away, and the buyer sensibly sold it for a huge profit not long after PB passed - probably at the peak value.

As for the rest of us with no-name provenance and originality on our side, well at the moment the market for a 201.034/035 seems to be seeing the heavily modified junk vehicles advertised in the high 20's-low 30's. Based on this, you would rightly believe that an unmodified original vehicle would / should command an exceptional premium over and above those poorly maintained heavily modified vehicles.

the Evo2 bodykit looks good, but the value is not in the kit, but in the vastly different mechanicals, for example; hydraulic suspension with adjustable ride height, and that M102.992 engine with the AMG Power Pack. Of course, not many AMG Power Pack cars were produced, so of the 502, perhaps just 10% total had the Power Pack, making those vehicles ultimately worth the pinnacle price.

I have seen Evo 2 prices close to the £200,000 mark for unmolested original condition low mileage. That's without the power pack option. So there is obviously a huge discrepancy between what the market will bear and what the vehicle is actually 'rightly' worth. While I cannot personally see the vehicle physically worth those vast sums, the other attributes have significant effect on values, notable the low mileage and the exceptional condition of the vehicle, pushing the price well beyond 'logic', and more into 'desire'.

Certainly the value of a LHD vehicle is not directly comparable with the Australian Market, which leaves the UK and Japan our only indicators. Many more RHD 2.3-16's in UK than Japan, as JPN can also have LHD vehicles registered. Also Japan has a higher concentration of the 2.5-16 Evo1 & 2 models, and the AMG 3.2 which does upset the price in that domestic market, leaving an obvious disparity between the 2.3-16 and the 2.5-16.

So for these vehicles, the UK & JPN markets are a reasonably accurate indicator - whereas I'd argue that all other w201 models can only abide the domestic market here regarding appropriate values.

201.034 prices in the UK are reasonable. By the time you convert £GBP into $AUD, as well as import duties etc, the comparative values are 'not too far off' when observing condition.

Of course, by now, all those UK cars have a degree of rust. most are terminal. So bearing in mind that problem, the vehicles in AU with no rust are still worth a considerable premium. This is where it is particularly tricky, as it is simply not possible to do an appropriate comparison without seeing both vehicles in the flesh. Hence, the AU vehicles will always carry a premium value. As they say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, and a car that's already here with rego and not needing to have any major surgery to make it roadworthy is certainly worth quite a bit more than a foreign market vehicle, sight unseen and not yet imported.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Greg in Oz
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Re: What is a 16V worth in Oz?

Post by Greg in Oz » Fri 01 Aug, 2014 1:21 am

Whilst it wasn't in Oz and not especially relevant to this topic's subject title, there was a 2.5-16 Evo sold at that recent Bonhams auction at the MB museum (see viewtopic.php?f=25&t=19613 ). I was surprised to see in the auction results at http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22177/? ... =list&m0=0 that the 2.5-16 Evo (lot 45) sold for as little as the equivalent of AU$36k. I'm sure an Evo offered for sale in Oz would realise a much higher price and if that Evo 2 in the Fox collection in Melbourne is ever offered for sale there will be serious money involved.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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AMG
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Re: What is a 16V worth in Oz?

Post by AMG » Sat 02 Aug, 2014 3:49 am

That 2.5-16 was in reasonably poor condition though... did you see the engine bay? it shows years of neglect.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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