Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

190E 2.3-16, 190E 2.5-16, 190E Evolution 1 & 2 models
16v specific information.
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Sonny
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Joined: Sun 01 Jun, 2014 11:48 pm
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Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

Post by Sonny » Mon 02 Jun, 2014 12:06 am

Hi All,

New member and about to embark on a restoration project of my 190E Cosworth. Are there any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia as I have not seen one on the road? I would love to see a fuel injected and turbo setup as I am thinking of going down the route.

I will post some pictures of the 190E this weekend when time permits.

Regards,

Sonny

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AMG
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Re: Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

Post by AMG » Mon 02 Jun, 2014 7:38 am

Start with these.

http://forum.190rev.net/showthread.php? ... -continued
http://forum.190rev.net/showthread.php? ... re-rebuild
http://forum.190rev.net/showthread.php? ... urbo-setup
http://forum.190rev.net/showthread.php? ... group-buy)
http://forum.190rev.net/showthread.php? ... -FIN-Turbo
http://forum.190rev.net/showthread.php? ... 3-16-turbo

When you're done reading, understand what you have, what it will cost you and what the car will be worth summarily post-conversion.

I recommend you find a 2.6 and do a late m104 engine swap instead. This keeps it all daily-useable and no hassles with rego etc.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Hendrik
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Re: Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

Post by Hendrik » Tue 03 Jun, 2014 9:29 am

AMG wrote: I recommend you find a 2.6 and do a late m104 engine swap instead. This keeps it all daily-useable and no hassles with rego etc.
Pretty sure the KE 104 was more powerful or as powerful as the later electronic fuel injected ones.

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AMG
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Re: Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

Post by AMG » Tue 03 Jun, 2014 10:09 am

Agreed, but the problem with KE m104 is the wiring harness will need to be transplanted / spliced in also -M104 has MAS, ECU, EZL with AKR all things to go bad down the track and potentially be expensive...... it's cheaper to get a 3.2 hfm and use aftermarket engine management - unless you have a donor car with a ke m104.

Failing that an m103 3.0 bolts straight in no nasties. and useable with that big chunk of extra torque. all that is required is notifying the DOT of the new engine # for rego.

damn sight cheaper, don't you think?
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Sonny
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Joined: Sun 01 Jun, 2014 11:48 pm
Model you own: w201

Re: Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

Post by Sonny » Tue 03 Jun, 2014 8:47 pm

Thanks AMG for the links. Great stuff!!!

I like this set up. http://forum.190rev.net/showthread.php? ... -FIN-Turbo

I have the m102-990 (2.5-16V) Auto in my 190e which I want to change to manual. Other than the Getrag dogleg does Mercedes have other manual gearboxes that will bolt to the m102 and can handle around 400hp? My preference is a 6 speed from the w203 c230, but not sure how much it can handle.

The parts I have for the 190e are:
Mosselman Turbo Kit,
Front Mount Intercooler,
Mercedes 4 pot front and 2 pot rears brakes,
Aftermarket ECU,
Injector rail,
660cc injectors,
Coil packs and modified crank angle sensor,
2 Bar Map sensor.

I think the 190e Cosworth were great in the 80's, but lacking a little in power compared to later day cars. Thanks for your help.

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AMG
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Re: Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

Post by AMG » Thu 31 Jul, 2014 11:38 am

You won't get away turbocharging a 16v without a complete bottom-end rebuild with much stronger components. These NA motors are designed to have extremely light reciprocating mass to enable them to pull the big RPM's that NA engines need to make the big power.
bolting on a turbo will almost certainly end in an expensive disaster for you, so it would be very wise to change pistons and rods for much stronger ones. AND that gets expensive - pankl rods are not cheap, and the high silicone content forged alloy piston blanks which are required are also cost-prohibitive.
A number of failed turbo installations have occurred on the east cost - and almost all failures are piston / rod (and cracked block) as a result of excessive boost - and to that end we are only talking marginally above 1 bar.

To ensure your m102.990 stays healthy, it would be wise to consider all your costs ahead of the build, as many have succumbed to the financial hole that these cars have every potential of being.

While the engine has the potential to make good power when turbocharged, the original design does not lend itself easily to a force fed application, as all of the components were stripped of every conceivable amount of mass to enable the manufacture of efficient power as a normally aspirated engine. As such, the engine internals, and even the block are remarkably fragile when compared to an engine such as a 2JZ for example, which is physically built to take the stresses of a force fed application.

While it may be a worthwhile pursuit, it carries with it a significant financial risk. Best of luck and be careful in your design. Do not skimp on any area of the build or it will prove to be a costly error.

:occasion5:
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Sulzberg
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Re: Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

Post by Sulzberg » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 5:45 pm

Hi Sonny,

I have a 2.3-16v in my garage, i brought it over from NZ when i moved here 8 years ago, it has been in storage for 3 years, I have done a small amount of work on it ,, unfortunately is has a leaking head gasket between the 3 - 4 cylinder on the air take side, so needless to say its not getting much use atm. Plan is to take head off and recond it, replace timing chain , tensioners etc.. at the same time.

PM me if you want to know more. I am south of the river

Cheers
Sulzberg
1988 W201 190E 2.3-16v
2006 W219 CLS500

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aquaihoi
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Re: Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

Post by aquaihoi » Sat 26 Aug, 2017 10:35 pm

Ha ha sounds like my first few posts, how to turbo a 2.3 16v, as Joe said expensive, David F on here that a 2.5 16v and then build for that was astronomical I so wanted to see that driving but he didn’t get around ton finishing it and the car / engine is some where in oz, think QLD. I was thinking turbo too, but after driving the 16v for a while it totally grew on me and the thought of turbo charging it left my mind. Although I have built up significant parts for EFI conversion with ITBS etc. etc. Where I was going to take it would have rendered it useless as a street car. What I was told on my first or second post was “ dont wreck a cosy by turbo charging it “ I’d say that was the best advise I got. Now I still wanted a turbo a 190e, so I got myself a 2.0 / 4 190e with a busted engine, bought another 91 2.3 8v ( dual timing chain ), then bought another engine that had a turbo kit on it which was also a 2.3 8v but single timing chain and carby ( back then I was chasing after a mosselman turbo kit badly ), pulled the kit off that had a Alpine manifold and then set out to build out a modern kit ( or my own Mosselman Kit which is pretty much almost impossible to find ). At the moment I’m knee deep in some other projects so the cars are on the shelf, but have all the bits to make a turbo setup for for the 2.3 8v.

After a lot of research, what I learned is “ the stock internals/conrods on a 2.3 8v will break at 350hp+ on X amount of boost - guys in Scandinavia region love turbo charging 190es so plenty of information available from there ) so I did some calculations with the kit and turbo I got from the spare engine and decided I’ll boost it up to about 320 - 330 hp - if the motor blows there is a spare, but first step is to EFI it, these bits I got from one of the members in the states who built a prototype plenum and injector set up / single throttle which is designed to clear the oils filter as well as the steering reservoir - so no need to change anything, I’’m actually going to change the radiator to the same one I have in the 16v so it gives me an opening either side to mount air intake and a smallish intercooler, the intake will not be using pod filter but a flat filter like dtm cars - so its more ram air sitting right in front of the grill. I kinda look at it this way, 16v are rare cars and as Joe said turbo charging it will do irreversible things to it, better off getting a 6 or 4 which not a 16v to fulfill your turbo dreams. A lot of people want to turbo the 6/4 but there are few and far kits available, Turbo Bandit gear is through the roof. Its always going to be custom built stuff. Mike from Dkubus has flanges ready made that you can build your own manifolds from as well and he has a FrankenCIS piggyback Ecu that can make the kjet system work real nice with a turbo or you can run full standalone off the Ecu used in that kit. I’ll be using a microte Ecu for my Turbo setup, the guys (Maztec) made me a an offer I couldn’t refuse on the installation and tune and they know a lot about building fast cars ha ha I have a Mitsubishi turbo which is rare for over 400hp which came on the engine so I’ll try this out, but I did a lot of research on turbos, I would like to try a Borg Warner variable vane turbo as used in Porsches but that is very $$$$ as the BW / Porsche turbos are made of a custom type of material that allows the variable vane technology to work in petrol engines, I am also considering the Borg Warner unit out of a A45 AMG but that would be for later. The 2.3 8v ( 91 ) engine is prime candidate for turbo as its already got low comp, has a strong dual timing chain and can certainly benefit and use the extra power - if one were so inclined you could gut the internals and shove forged bits in there and get higher power than 360hp++++++ and it might or might not cost a lot less than turbo charging a 16v if you sourced those internals from here ;-)

For power, “ even “ at “ only 320 or so ponies “ you’d have a nice meaty driving car, people always seem to forget that the dry weight of the 190 is around 1300 - 1400 or so kg, my 85 Honda Civic was 1300kg so a little power goes a long way because of the weight advantage ( some say the 190 - even the 16v is overweight and underpowered which I dont agree with - they must mean non 16v models :-P ) plenty of other things you can do to add extra handling / suspension / diff / etc etc. then you can have your jollies off on the turbo and leave you 16v for special occasions ;- )

Good luck with it all if you have your heart set on it ! :occasion5:
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190e 2.3 16 - Lil Hammer'
( It's like ' Lil Bastard ' but better )

hents99
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Re: Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

Post by hents99 » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 7:48 am

My stock 2.3-16 rods were all bent and one broke also. Approx 470hp. CR 10.5 and no detonation at all.
8v will take also 100hp per rod without problems. Over 100hp/cyl or 7500rpm could be trouble with stock internals.
Good luck.
560SEC, C55, W201 (2.3-16T + 2.5-16)

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AMG
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Re: Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

Post by AMG » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 10:23 pm

Hendrik,

It's about time you showed us some pics of the bent stuff :occasion5:

Haven't seen you around for a while... Busy?
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

hents99
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Posts: 68
Joined: Sat 15 Nov, 2008 11:07 pm
Model you own: w126
Location: Estonia
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Re: Any 190E Cosworth owners in Western Australia?

Post by hents99 » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 11:10 pm

Hi, busy all the time...Actually me and my family would like to move Australia next year....so I checked what`s going on and how :)
And then found some interesting threads....

Of course I have pics:

Image

Image


This is my dyno result with 1.2 bar of boost. Precision 6265 billet turbocharger. Boost target is set to 1.8 bar but somehow I couldn`t build more boost than 1.2 bar. Maybe leak or not much dyno brake-load to wheels. I have experienced same with another cars with big turbos but in same dyno bench. 1.8 bar on road is no problem...Cosworth is beast!
I found that battery is dead 10m before dyno time....quickly recharged... I made 3 pulls and after that batter hadn`t enough power to crank the engine. So I haven`t got chance to start mapping and map is quite safe and there is much room for power....
I haven`t been in dyno with my car before. Only tuned by myself when driving....it`s dangerous.

Final ratio is 2.82 btw. Perfect for turbo car.

386kW / 550Nm @ wheels. 1.2 bar boost pressure.

Image


My and my wife`s cars:
Image

Image

Image
560SEC, C55, W201 (2.3-16T + 2.5-16)

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