190e 2.3-16 SLS question

190E 2.3-16, 190E 2.5-16, 190E Evolution 1 & 2 models
16v specific information.
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McBenz
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190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by McBenz » Thu 05 Jan, 2012 10:45 am

Gday All
Im a long time lurker, first time poster. I've been interested in a 2.3-16 for a while. It seems that a fair few have the SLS system removed. One I would like has the system taken out (all the tubing as well as the pump gone) and the parts missing. What sort of price would it cost to get the pump and restore the system? Is there any reason performance/value wise why it should be done? Im not sure if I would do it, it just seems kind of the 'right' thing to do....
Sorry if the questions been asked before, I had a search through the archives but couldnt see anything.
Cheers.

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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by John Green » Thu 05 Jan, 2012 12:59 pm

Good question, and one that you will get a dozen differant passionate answer for.

IMHO, MB fitted it as it was considered to be "the best". My W124 300CE-24 3.4 AMG has it fitted with special AMG revalves struts in the rear. So you could then ask why AMG used it?

Costs to replace would be huge, especially if it has had complete removal of everything. A lot of standard sedans have had it removed, because people were scared of it, didn't understand it, were spun a story by their mechanic, etc, etc.
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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by McBenz » Fri 06 Jan, 2012 10:27 am

Hi there, thanks for the reply.
I was kind of hoping it would be a quick and easy job but then it never is! I was wondering what it was that made it so expensive? The link seems to show the pump needed (correct me if Im wrong please) and its relatively cheap, although only available in the US. What other components are needed or is it the labour involved? Also if anyone had driven Cossies with and without SLS I'd be interested to hear your opinion.
Thanks.

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oz coz
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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by oz coz » Fri 06 Jan, 2012 8:29 pm

Hi McBenz,
If the rear SLS system has been taken out virtually completely, the cost of replacement would most likely be fairly high. You have not stated what the year of manufacture of the "of interest" 2.3-16 is as some later ones had traction control and SLS was an available option for the front suspension also. I have only heard of one 2.3-16 located in South Australia that has the front SLS option so it is probably not this car. If it was a traction control car, the removal of the hydraulic pump could interfere with the functioning of the LSD. 190E 16v cars are relatively cheap to buy but costly to maintain correctly so of the survivors many are in poor condition.
Most of the 2.3-16 owners that have removed the rear SLS system do so believing that they will end up with a more powerful (removal of hydraulic pump) better handling car and at a lower replacement cost. This type of maintenance is unfortunately common with the Cosworth engined 190E's - ie replacing the factory system with an aftermarket system. It is generally driven by the at times staggering prices charged by MB for genuine replacement parts.
As a road car a 2.3-16 with good condition standard suspension ( ie SLS at rear) was and still is an excellent handling car. Any road car's suspension has some built-in compromises and undoubtedly some after market suspension packages can improve the handling (if you are prepared to accept a rock hard ride and a few loose fillings). However don't believe that all of the aftermarket kits have been as well engineered as the factory setup. I have seen one 2.5-16 that had a very stiff hard riding kit fitted that was fine for track days but after being used on the road the front offside tower split vertically, was repaired poorly, split again and the remaining metal could not accept the somewhat violent suspension loads of the aftermarket suspension. The result was a whole new front chassis had to be fitted from the firewall forward.
Interestingly the 1984 record breaking cars ran at the Nardi proving grounds with front and rear SLS. The reason was to keep the cars level and hence to maximise the aerodynamic benefits of the body kits. As they averaged close to 150 MPH, I guess the factory engineers got it pretty right.
oz coz

1986 190E 2.3-16 Blue-Black
1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by Dr Diesel » Wed 25 Jan, 2012 11:03 pm

oz coz wrote:You have not stated what the year of manufacture of the "of interest" 2.3-16 is as some later ones had traction control and SLS was an available option for the front suspension also. I have only heard of one 2.3-16 located in South Australia that has the front SLS option so it is probably not this car.
Only 2.5-16 was equipped from factory with front & rear SLS as option (code 429).
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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by oz coz » Thu 26 Jan, 2012 6:50 pm

Hi Dr Diesel,

Well maybe we could both be right?

If you have a look through MB's EPC on the 2.3-16 ( European and USA version), you will see the diagrams and part numbers listed for the system covering the front and rear suspensions. As examples, part number A2013205472 is the line from the left front hydropneumatic spring leg to the distributor, A2013205572 is the line from the right front htdropneumatic spring leg to the distributor, A1233200215 is the front spring load accumulator and so forth. The diagrams are there that show the whole system including the control mechanism from the front anti-roll bar.

Now whether they were formally listed as an option I am happy to accept your opinion as I simply don't know. But the EPC lists all parts as 2.3-16 parts and one exists in S.A. as it was offered to me by an Adelaide importer for purchase some 7 to 8 years ago.
oz coz

1986 190E 2.3-16 Blue-Black
1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by AMG » Fri 27 Jan, 2012 9:14 am

oz coz wrote:Hi Dr Diesel,

Well maybe we could both be right?

If you have a look through MB's EPC on the 2.3-16 ( European and USA version), you will see the diagrams and part numbers listed for the system covering the front and rear suspensions. As examples, part number A2013205472 is the line from the left front hydropneumatic spring leg to the distributor, A2013205572 is the line from the right front htdropneumatic spring leg to the distributor, A1233200215 is the front spring load accumulator and so forth. The diagrams are there that show the whole system including the control mechanism from the front anti-roll bar.

Now whether they were formally listed as an option I am happy to accept your opinion as I simply don't know. But the EPC lists all parts as 2.3-16 parts and one exists in S.A. as it was offered to me by an Adelaide importer for purchase some 7 to 8 years ago.
I wonder where this particular car is now? I heard of a car matching this description meeting an untimely demise... I hope it is not the same car.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by Dr Diesel » Fri 27 Jan, 2012 10:17 am

I was mistaken. :violent1: 2.3- and 2.5-16 could be equipped with front and rear SLS.

Salutte! :joker:
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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by Greg in Oz » Fri 27 Jan, 2012 11:24 pm

With discussion of SLS on the front, my thoughts initially turned to the very low kilometre 190E 2.5-16 Evo II in the Fox Collection in Melbourne which I have drooled over on a couple of separate occasions. I then remembered the very early 190E 2.3-16 cars which set world records at Nardo in Italy which also had SLS on the front to allow the ride height to be trimmed for minimal drag.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by dearlove » Tue 31 Jan, 2012 9:26 pm

oz coz wrote: I have seen one 2.5-16 that had a very stiff hard riding kit fitted that was fine for track days but after being used on the road the front offside tower split vertically, was repaired poorly, split again and the remaining metal could not accept the somewhat violent suspension loads of the aftermarket suspension. The result was a whole new front chassis had to be fitted from the firewall forward.
do you have any pictures of this, this has been discussed in great detail in the states with the general conclusion being that this wouldnt happen, a lot of hardcore cars running full on front coilovers (all the load going through the strut tower, none on the spring perch) have been closely monitoring it for years with no defects



also, when you say these cars can be had for cheap?? how much we talking, i've only seen them going for ~15-20k which is rediculus considering in the state, UK you can get a half decent one for 3k...

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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by oz coz » Thu 02 Feb, 2012 11:15 am

Unfortunately I did not take any photos at the time but did watch the replacement of the front of the car over an extended period. The replacement front section came from MB Aust 's stock in Melbourne as part of their clearout of old new stock. The car now looks great and the aftermarket suspension package was reinstalled! So the jury is out.

Can't comment on what has been written on forums overseas as I don't frequent them. Can only repeat what I actually saw and was somewhat saddened by. The car is now back to rude health but the owner has lately been sidetracked in sorting out his SR20DET engined BMW 316i.

Due to the high cost of replacement parts for these 16v cars, condition is the first, second, third adinfinitum consideration when purchasing. When and if you have the misfortune of having to replace or repair a major component, the cost is generally significant and can easily exceed the purchase prices that you state are available for reasonable cars overseas. I was overseas a few years back and looked at a few cars in the range that you mentioned and can only say good luck when you are looking in this range as you will need it. Basically they were appalling with lots of rust and filler.The majority of 16v's are imported from the UK or Hong Kong--the UK has plenty of rain,on street parking, salty roads while HK has plenty of humidity.

The safest way of buying these cars is to buy the very best that you can afford after having it inspected by an MB expert with hopefully some experience on the 16v models. Buy a good one and you will be smitten--buy a bad one and you will be broke.
oz coz

1986 190E 2.3-16 Blue-Black
1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by AMG » Thu 02 Feb, 2012 8:26 pm

oz coz wrote: The safest way of buying these cars is to buy the very best that you can afford after having it inspected by an MB expert with hopefully some experience on the 16v models. Buy a good one and you will be smitten--buy a bad one and you will be broke.
Wise words.

However, sometimes, even when you get a 'good one' it comes with a few expensive surprises. :blackeye:

It all evens out over time however, especially if you intend to maintain the originality.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by Greg in Oz » Thu 02 Feb, 2012 10:53 pm

JoeB wrote:
oz coz wrote: The safest way of buying these cars is to buy the very best that you can afford after having it inspected by an MB expert with hopefully some experience on the 16v models. Buy a good one and you will be smitten--buy a bad one and you will be broke.
Wise words.

However, sometimes, even when you get a 'good one' it comes with a few expensive surprises. :blackeye:

It all evens out over time however, especially if you intend to maintain the originality.
Yes, but if you "stole it" from the seller, the pain can't be quite so bad!
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by AMG » Sat 04 Feb, 2012 10:51 am

Ahh, but if it cost you more in maintenance in 2 years than the purchase price, you have to ask yourself, was it really 'stealing' or was it simply a very wise offer.

There is no such thing as a cheap mercedes, and this statement is even more true for the 2.3-16 and 2.5-16

Just wait till you have to do top end work, or even threaten to mention the word 'timing chain' or better still as Brian has recently experienced.... 'idler sprocket'

even if you see receipts for $20k, I can guarantee there is always going to be something lurking, ready to catch you out.

That's just the way it is..... Somethings will never change.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: 190e 2.3-16 SLS question

Post by dearlove » Wed 15 Feb, 2012 8:22 pm

ha, there'seven a saying for that

'there's nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes'

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