Is this Scary or Not!

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KimB
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Is this Scary or Not!

Post by KimB » Wed 03 Dec, 2014 5:26 pm

Good grief it even stops for pedestrians!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSpuU3DmMIc
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by Mercmad » Wed 03 Dec, 2014 10:22 pm

It is patently ridiculous. I wonder how it copes with Russian maniacs . it actually seems like a green plot to get rid of the driving pleasures in life.

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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by KimB » Thu 04 Dec, 2014 9:15 am

Mercmad wrote:It is patently ridiculous. I wonder how it copes with Russian maniacs . it actually seems like a green plot to get rid of the driving pleasures in life.
Exactly my thoughts Mercmad. I'd be bored ....less!

I mean, what can you do with your hands in a driverless car? Knit? :laughing6:
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by pastelgrey300D » Thu 04 Dec, 2014 9:47 am

The dealer here demonstrates the pedestrian braking feature by having their youngest sales cadet stand in front of the car! :laughing6:

I test drove the new C-class which has the same technology available (distronic plus, steering assist etc) and it is a bit scary. But you can't just drive around with no hands on the wheels like in that video, if you have your hands off the wheel for too long it starts beeping at you etc.

The safety implications are huge though - seeing as us humans are prone to making mistakes and there is no such thing as the perfect driver this sort of stuff has the potential to eliminate or reduce rear enders, pedestrian injuries and falling asleep at the wheel among others. But I wouldn't feel confident enough to trust it totally.

One thing that I'm concerned about is that it may start to promote lazy driving behavior instead of being used solely as an intervention aid when the driver makes a mistake - just wait for all the lawsuits to start coming out of the states with morons claiming "oh geez I tawt da cawr was going to stahp itself boy howdy".
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by CraigB » Thu 04 Dec, 2014 10:21 am

The mischievous side of me is thinking what fun you could have - eg. multilane road, cruising next to one of these or just in front is you old worthless banger (with third party property insurance) what happens if you suddenly change lanes! Theoretically they won't actually hit you!
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Re: I m sorry Ron, I m afraid I can t accelerate

Post by parker » Thu 04 Dec, 2014 4:25 pm

Which movie?

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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by cuisses » Thu 04 Dec, 2014 7:48 pm

I think I have said this before guys, but get used to it. I would be surprised in ten years time if you could actually buy a new car that you could drive.
Almost all crashes are caused by driver error, and computer-driven cars have thus far never caused a crash (although they have been run into when stationary by a car with a driver). Governments will look at this technology. They will think of how many thousands of lives will be saved each year, how many people will not be in wheelchairs, and how much money will be saved. Then they will mandate it - just like seatbelts, crumple zones, airbags, electronic stability control etc.

We will still be able to drive our old cars on the road, but things will be a lot safer. Personally I cannot wait for fully driverless cars - half the nutters on the roads are already putting on makeup and talking on mobile phones, so they already think they have a driverless car - let's give 'em a real one.
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by T-Modell » Thu 04 Dec, 2014 8:11 pm

I completely disagree; this will only force the development of people switching off their brains and common sense and responsibility while driving. Who's liable in case of a crash then? It helps the tendency in society, that always someone else must be responsible, but never oneself.

One prime example for me is the "Auto" position in the light switch. I even had a car salesman telling me "Switch it to Auto and forget it then". Here in Germany, in spring or autumn, strange diffuse light, e. g. misty, a bit of fog etc. I can always tell who's got the auto-light-switch on, because they drive without lights then. Enough ambient light for the sensor, but not enough light to drive. Same with wiper sensors, attention assist etc. etc. ... I was in automation business too long, but a 100% technology, software, sensor etc. will never exist.

But we're on the path to the uniformed, streamlined citizen. Car insurances give you a benefit if you drive "safely", whatever that means, i. e. whatever they program into their algorithm. Health insurances start too, checking your armband and other intimate body data if you live "healthy", so you get a discount.

Long live cash! No tracebility, no one knows what I buy, no fxxx company can make a profit out of my data! :laughing6:

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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by Vat » Thu 04 Dec, 2014 9:17 pm

T
A case of the right car for the right role. We have a 2010 wagon with District and Lane Assist, which shares the garage with a '98 MX-5 which has airbags...and that's it.

The assists make the Benz a great long distance tourer, particularly on the Pacific Highway with its massive number of speed limit changes and roadworks. The car will brake itself to a standstill, and will take off once traffic begins moving.

Not only does this make driving less tiring, but it means the vehicle is much safer in the hands of a tired or distracted driver. It's all very well saying people should pay more attention and drive better, but they don't, and there is a net cost to society as a result.

Meanwhile, the MX-5 will happily drive into a wall or stationary traffic if so directed by distracted driver, will swap ends at low speed in wet conditions if careless throttle applications are made, and is fairly tiring to drive for more than an hour.

....and they will take it from my cold, dead hands....

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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by parker » Thu 04 Dec, 2014 9:40 pm


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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by Ivanerrol » Thu 04 Dec, 2014 11:12 pm

When you mess with reality, all the infinite amount of possibilities cannot be programmed for.
Unless you have an autonomous thinking machine - and that IS a scary scenario.

Back in the early eighties I was working on interfacing with communications satellites.
The system we were designing never was able to achieve better than 95% effectiveness.
Reality always popped up new problems.
We consulted a theoretical Physicist for some insight into getting our score up to 99+%. He looked at our situation and told us we would be lucky to achieve 92% effectiveness out of laboratory situation.
Ultimately he was right.
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by CraigB » Thu 04 Dec, 2014 11:43 pm

This is an interesting discussion. Given that Australian politics at least comes down to marginal seats, often in the mortgage belt, do you reckon a govt could do a good enough sell to be able to force people to have these cars? You would need good control in the upper house - look at the last weeks. Not saying it isn't possible but I still have this belief that I hope the way your post David is worded that we still get some say on things..... well some things! Its just the way I read it, it suggests because the data says it that it will happen. Of course they may make it that insurance on these cars is a fraction of the driver cars and that is perhaps more likely to bring on that sort of change. I know I sort of turned this into politics.... just what crossed my mind when I read it. Or maybe we have had a bit of run in the media of late of politicians who speak with arrogance about what they are determined to do which may contradict what they once said. I think it is ok to change if it makes sense and you explain that, it is more the delivery with arrogance of elected people - words along the lines of "I" will do what I want.
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by cuisses » Fri 05 Dec, 2014 11:33 am

Craig, I didn't think of this as a political issue - more one of common sense. You cannot buy a new car without seatbelts or with a carbie any more, just because one reduces deaths/injuries and the other increases pollution. The number of lives to be saved and the number of serious injuries to be avoided, is such that for me at least, this is a no-brainer. Reducing the road toll to zero is something that is not likely to be argued against by any political party. Of course, the results from real-world testing need to be in first, but there have been millions of miles driven by these cars ( over 1 million for the Google cars alone), without an accident, so things are looking good. Computers are not perfect, but they are a hell of a lot better at driving cars than the average person. Just yesterday a driver who wasn't paying attention (fortunately I was) cut in front of me. A computer would not do this - they have 360 degree vision, can "see" in the dark and have reaction times which beat people hands down.
Governments are serious about this kind of thing - this is why they are being trialled in many countries.

People raise the issue of liability in an accident. I don't see this as a problem. First, the number of accidents will approach zero. Second, the cause of the accident is going to be one of three things:
(1) Manufacturing fault (e.g. software glitch) - the manufacturer pays - and recalls all the cars, just as if you had a poorly made brake system.
(2) The driver fails to maintain the car - puts mud on the camera lenses, has old brake hoses - so the driver pays.
(3) Acts of God - he pays.
In the case of an accident in one of these cars we will also know a lot more about what is happening than we do now - i.e. what every other vehicle and pedestrian in the vicinity were doing in the moments up to the crash, so it will be pretty easy to find out what went wrong.

Some people like driving - and those people can still drive their old cars. Most people don't, and would prefer to be reading a good book. Driverless cars have the advantage of public transport (someone else is doing the work), with the advantage of private car ownership (you get to exactly where you want to go, and you don't have to sit next to some smelly, hairy bloke - unless he happens to be your husband :laughing6: ).
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by T-Modell » Fri 05 Dec, 2014 6:16 pm

David,

safety issues like airbag, ABS etc are not my point here. It's the total supervision that will come with all this stuff. Your car will know where you were at what time, which speed you were driving (ah, over the limit), how you brake (oh my god, David's a bit tired and braking too hard, so we think he's dangerous) and finally they will question your lifestyle, when you are in certain areas of your town at certain times of the day. You think that's future rubbish? Get informed. There is a reason, why cashless paying is promoted incl. all the nice cards you get everywhere to collect points etc.
cuisses wrote:...., but there have been millions of miles driven by these cars ( over 1 million for the Google cars alone), without an accident, so things are looking good. ....
Just compare that one million miles (of how many test cars, 10?) to the billions of miles driven by millions of cars e. g. in California and then look at the road kill. Everything is based on algorithms that someone has thought of, but life and reality are too complex to cover all situations. Besides I want to see that manufacturer, that says "no problem, I take the responsibility in case of a crash".

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P. S.: If anyone's interested what I mean, have a look here (she's American!): http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/d ... 52525.html
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by Mercmad » Fri 05 Dec, 2014 8:46 pm

But we're on the path to the uniformed, streamlined citizen.
we have seen that before ;
http://youtu.be/Om9D_fdrNhA
http://youtu.be/omm3QPMqyjc/

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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by Mercmad » Fri 05 Dec, 2014 9:10 pm

T-Modell wrote:David,

safety issues like airbag, ABS etc are not my point here. It's the total supervision that will come with all this stuff. Your car will know where you were at what time, which speed you were driving (ah, over the limit), how you brake (oh my god, David's a bit tired and braking too hard, so we think he's dangerous) and finally they will question your lifestyle, when you are in certain areas of your town at certain times of the day. You think that's future rubbish? Get informed. There is a reason, why cashless paying is promoted incl. all the nice cards you get everywhere to collect points etc.
Actually this feature already exists in cars now. There is a case where a driver of a commodore claimed he wasn't speeding when he hit another car. In the Air bag ECU information was revealed to show he was doing burnouts and was traveling 100KPH over the limit at the instant of the accident.
The question of these toys has been studied here in OZ since 1995...!
http://www.monash.edu.au/miri/research/ ... 02-its.pdf

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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by CraigB » Sat 06 Dec, 2014 10:34 am

This has drifted a bit to tail pipe territory, but it is interesting and I guess I will conclude by saying I'm really not sure about this - just my thoughts - describing what I am feeling more than any suggestion I am knowledgeable enough to make these decisions. I guess I am constantly faced with matters of the 'wrap everything in cotton wool' society and how you just cant achieve it, it has a huge cost to society and I really think it stops people from thinking and I can give you examples where it reduces enjoyment and quality of life - examples where I would gladly sign something to take on personal risks that wouldn't affect others but our legal system wont allow. And I know we can all probably think of any number of arguments for and against and of course there would be many more billions of test miles before anything was entrenched. But I guess our young people are starting to have to live that way now and they are the ones that this will impact. I will be lucky to have another 30 years or so in me and hopefully I don't get too impacted by still having a degree of freedom and ability to think rather than living a life ruled by computers and these strict parameters that we never go outside of. It is along the lines of euthanasia where the value of a life is considered so great that we remove the right to decide how we live or enjoy life. I know that is an extreme way of putting it but I hope you know what I mean. And I think the overall problem with the cotton wool thing is we can't think through every permutation of the effects it has...... but I will stop there! But it will be interesting how things change.
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by Ivanerrol » Sat 06 Dec, 2014 5:07 pm

Just this week the acclaimed Physicist Steven Hawking made the statement that increasing autonomous A.I. would be the cause the elimination of the human race.
Think CyberDyne - Terminator movies.

July 23rd 2012, the sun released a massive solar storm.
NASA and Stanford solar physicists studied that event and after two years released the results.
A massive EMP was released and then further highly charged electro-magnetic radiation which lasted for 5 days.
The EMP and radiation affected an area in space where the earth had been only a week previously.
The effects on the earth if it had sustained a direct hit by these waves would have been catastrophic.
Even NASA an organization not overly known for alarmist statements stated that that one event would have cost around 2 trillion dollars in direct damage.
The flow on repercussions would have been considerable.

As the world gets more and more dependent on technology run by microcircuits and "etherware", the more I get worried.

NASA's odds on a highly destructive solar event hitting the earth before the end of this century - 100%
NASA's odds on a highly destructive solar event hitting the earth before the end of this century - 10%
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by Mercmad » Sat 06 Dec, 2014 9:36 pm

One of my Ancestors,My GG grandfather,Jabez, was mentioned in a book called " the machinery breakers". A brief history of the followers of Ned Ludd, the luddites, as he sheltered some who were hiding from the law at the time. :laughing6: :laughing6: .His beliefs have not proved to be genetic :laughing6: I find these things interesting but a closer look at many accidents reveal that it is driver error ,often driver impairment which causes the problems. No amount of electronic brain numbing will cure this.

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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by AMG » Sun 07 Dec, 2014 11:03 am

A great deal of $ is being spent by companies to move towards software defined ANYTHING.

I work in this industry.

I will say only this.

It is not good idea, nor is it good practice to pursue this ideology as a supplicant in ANY area of technology.

It is not worth my time to extrapolate on the issue. I'm tired of talking about it.

It already poses a threat to the way people live normal lives, and you are one step closer to being marginalized by government and corporations that control them.

Your only hope is to learn how to thwart & disable this technology as it continues to replace your thinking.

If you let it, your own stupidity will be your undoing.

Do not believe for one minute that the people who design these systems understand it themselves. they understand the programming, they understand the designed functionality. they do not understand the consequences of their design being used in other manners than originally intended.

think Oppenheimer & Nuclear warfare. and don't laugh about it. use your heads.

one man creates a weapon capable of destroying everything.

now we have hundreds of people using computers to create other computers which will (not might) destroy human life as we know it. Becoming a luddite is not such a bad idea. war of the worlds and all that junk... ha - we all laughed at that in the 70's, in the 80's we laughed at Orwellian theory. in the 90's we laughed at artifical intellligence...

start diggin your bomb shelters and arming yourself to the hilt. we're all going to die :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing6: :laughing6: :laughing6: :violent3:
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by Ivanerrol » Sun 07 Dec, 2014 4:52 pm

You've seen the Jason Bourne movies.
With the exception of the latest non Matt Damon movie, all the technology shown in the stories existed at the time of shooting.
The producers of the movies went out of their way to ensure the events were as realistic as possible using available technology.
Matt Damon accidentally knocked out two other actors during the production using the martial arts skills even though the moves were carefully choreographed.

Rupert Murdoch's famous U.K. newspaper was closed down as a result of editors and their technical staff using technology to "illegally" spy on anybody who was of interest to their circulation.
The case is still controversial. The former editor of the News of the World went to Jail - he was a friend of U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron.

"Spying" or "latent eavesdropping" is a very murky subject.
There was a Commonwealth Official Secrets act. I wonder what ever happened to it? I signed it as a 16 year old when first starting employment with the Commonwealth government. It's a lifetime commitment.

Many years ago I was installing some portable satellite ground stations. We needed to site these in an exact position.
We had a Military issued GPS device. It came in two suitcases, weighed nearly 45 kilos, had a 1 metre dish antenna and cost UDS$250.000 - now I have one in my smartfone and it came free :Doh:
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by Lance » Sun 07 Dec, 2014 6:31 pm

But, self driving cars already exist don't they? I have seen so many people driving looking down at their phone and texting.
I think it is an option offered by Hyundai, mainly sold to young girls.
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Re: Is this Scary or Not!

Post by pastelgrey300D » Mon 08 Dec, 2014 8:56 am

But, self driving cars already exist don't they? I have seen so many people driving looking down at their phone and texting.
That's correct. Unlike the MB's though those cars are also self-crashing... :laughing6:
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