M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

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kimrh
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M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by kimrh » Sat 14 Jun, 2014 1:47 am

OK if you read my thread on getting a W124 300CE coupe over from Sydney to Perth -
The story goes deep but i want to focus on the engine work that was done on the M117 560 that was transplanted into the coupe for track racing duties and is going to subsequently be removed and end up in my black 560 widebody project.
I had been talking to the owner last year about this engine conversion to EFI as he could not believe the power (torque) he achieved in the process and i am still trying to get my head around it and what he ended up with in results - especially as he built it to race and that is where its true performance shows rather than just on the dyno.

The seller is from outer Sydney and has a few Mercs as well as his son and they both club race and are very skilled and into high performance (Wakefield i believe is his local club)
His engine tuner is Adam Neish - owner of "Just Engine Management" at Ingleburn NSW

This engine was sourced and imported into Australia
Engine Euro 1990 117.968 RUF 560 10:1 comp (92,000kms)
Compression tested and found to be spot on
Heads removed, ported and fully reconditioned
Bottom end stripped checked and rebuilt
( I forgot to ask what cams he was running with - but assume the 300hp version)
Mechanical injection replaced with "stand alone" EFI and after "much investigation" he ended up using the Haltec Platinum sport 2000 ECU.
http://www.haltech.com

Fuel injectors sourced from a 1975 450 engine and had them reconditioned and flow tested @ 460cc and they fitted directly into the 560 heads.
The top of the injector is connected to the 17mm ID fuel rails by rubber fuel line.
The 300CE twin fuel pumps were replaced with one Bosch 044 pump
Sard adjustable pressure regulator fitted.
Fuel rails are extruded aluminium and tapped the ends for speedflow fittings and the outlets for the injector connections.
Dizzi modified to "twin Hall Effect four wire output" by Peter at "Scorcher Distributors" in Melbourne. (Negates the need for a crank position sensor & sensor wheel)
An aftermarket slightly larger throttle body than the 560 with TPS but he said it was sourced off the shelf and a straight bolt up using the existing 560 pulley/rods setup
More to come
http://www.performanceignition.com.au/home

Auto Trans/torque convertor rebuilt
Original 300CE 3.07 open Diff used when tuning was done and later replaced with a rebuilt W126 LSD 3.07

At this point he did not realise that he had grabbed the wrong torque converter off the shelf (as he carried many parts) and put in a 380 TC by mistake!!
Heads for dyno testing/tuning in mid 2010
Dyno results achieved using 2nd gear only
Ambient Temp.21*C Air Density 98.2%. 98 Octain Fuel.
Max torque 449 Ft/LB @ 4210rpm (faeces!!!! that is 607nm)
420 Ft/Lb of torque achieved at only 1600 RPM
Interesting this was achieved using MB Logs (single down pipe each side into twin system) as Try-y's would not fit due to steering box on the 300CE.

After that initial tuning was done and some track work the W124 eventually headed back to the dyno for more tuning work as it was discovered he had bolted up the wrong torque converter by mistake when the rebuilt engine/trans was fitted.
It had a 380 torque converter in there instead of the correct one and also it was picked up he was using the wrong spark plugs (original bosch non resistor ones for the K-jet EZL)

With all corrected and back to the dyno they had the RWHP up to +340 odd he recalls and settled it back to a comfortable 320rwhp and left it at that
Again torque was massive which he really hones in on each time we talked by phone.

He advises racing it on a club event at the legendary Australian Bathurst Track and even with the 3.07diff and confirmed by his GPS fitted speedo he hit 268kph at just under 6,000rpm (it was limited to 6,250) down Conrod straight and going back up the mountain (which is steep) with the torque it was hauling ass without the need to manually work the auto shifter it pulled so hard.
This is a guy who regularly races his E55 AMG (non supercharged version) prepped for track and can make comparisons between cars engine performance.

Anyway i have asked him to contact the tuner (and also emailed the Tuner myself) to try and retrieve all the dyno sheets from his computer (hopefully he has kept them). If not -when i get the engine set up i can retrieve them myself direct from the Haltech program once hooked up to my laptop.
I am pretty excited about this EFI conversion as it sounds like he was onto a winner without it being a complex conversion process

In the owners own words- "Overall the acceleration is incredible and torque is exceptional"

It does sound like this was a very successful EFI conversion with some significant performance gains achieved
Here are some pics
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87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by kimrh » Sat 14 Jun, 2014 1:54 am

More and the intitial dyno sheet with the wrong torque converter and wrong spark plugs installed.
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87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by kimrh » Sat 14 Jun, 2014 8:17 am

Bearing in mind i do not yet have access to the final dyno tuning sessions with the correct torque converter swapped in and the correct spark plugs fitted
(in that initial dyno tuning session you see above in the readout with incorrect spark plugs fitted -they were failing at higher revs hence the reason HP & torque was falling away at top end)

Iam told HP was up at +340rwhp in later sessions and then they backed it off to settle at 320rwhp to keep the engine reliable

What i would like to focus in on and have feedback on is why that torque is so incredible for an M117 engine using MB Logs and single dumper pipes each side into a twin exhaust system.
That torque band is massive between 1600rpm to 4500rpm even on the initial tuning (even with the wrong spark plugs and TC)

"John the owner who has clocked up 2,000kms in the 300CE coupe since fitting the engine and racing it - keeps telling me it just hauls like a freight train
RPM is governed at 6250 but he tells me club racing at Bathurst coming down Conrod straight at 267kph with a 3.07diff and engine speed just under 6,000rpm was a breeze and going back up the mountain it storms up there with so much torque".
I know this is not a modern chevi LS1/2/3 etc pulling +400RWHP at peak revs which most would take that route to dump in the car for this type of club racing etc - but torque is what counts on the road and to have 420ft/lb (570n/m) on tap at just 1600rpm and quickly up in the +600n/m band is not bad in my mind for an engine of this age of 5.6litres

I am chasing down the final dyno charts from the tuner (but no luck as yet)
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by Hendrik » Sat 14 Jun, 2014 10:29 am

Not all engines are the same, the advertised stock torque for the ECE motor is 455nm http://wiki.mercedes-benz-classic.com/i ... E-Motor/en
However this does not mean that every 560 ECE puts out 455nm, there is variation and some may well put out a bit more than that.
It may well be that your motor is a very good one and dumping more fuel and air into it (and a better grade of fuel) optimizing spark timing, giving the heads the once over, etc should give it a fair bit more ummpph.
The only way to tell would have been to put the stock motor on a dyno before modding it, to see exactly what gains have been achieved.

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by cuisses » Sat 14 Jun, 2014 7:48 pm

You can of course increase power and torque figures by getting a bit more fuel in the cylinders and a bit more air, with the possible penalty that the engine has a reduced life.

The problem with all dyno measurements on the rear wheels is that they need to convert that into a value (of Nm or hp) at the flywheel, and the transmission gets in the way. If it is an auto, it will be dissipating a lot of heat, perhaps 20% -35% of your power gets lost this way, so the dyno guys correct for this by multiplying by some factor. The question is, how do they get this factor, since it can change the answer by a lot. Do they use a fixed value for every auto? Do they have an enormous table of transmissions, for which the efficiency has been measured and just plug the number in (I doubt it, but perhaps someone went to the trouble to do those measurements)? The variability between transmissions which are nominally the same, with age for example, is probably big. The temperature of the transmission will also affect things.

So I am a little skeptical when people claim absolute values of hp based on rear-wheel measurements. If they take the engine out and measure at the flywheel, that is a different matter, and that is presumably what Mercedes do, when they quote figures.

Alternatively, you can do what Hendrik suggests:

"The only way to tell would have been to put the stock motor on a dyno before modding it, to see exactly what gains have been achieved.",

and that way you can say "We got a 23% improvement" or whatever.

I am not saying your engine is not better than stock (possibly significantly), I just wouldn't be staking too much on the actual numbers.
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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by kimrh » Sat 14 Jun, 2014 8:40 pm

David i agree and can only comment from what a very experienced guy is telling me in terms of his seat in the pants driving it at the track and he has been club racing for many years and has owned many Mercs and still does and his main track car is an E55 CLK to benchmark the W124 against
The engine tuner is a very experienced and trusted owner/operator according to John - http://www.justenginemanagement.com/new ... yno_tuning
Not sure of his calibrations/methodology to derive the values/readouts.
Don't really care -
i am really just curious to feel the difference of a decent EFI conversion on a 560 M117 300hp RUF engine which included full headwork/porting/flow etc and with a respected tuner has come up with what appears a reasonable improvement over the stock (455nm @ 3750) 300hp ke-jet engine from factory without too much trouble.
Yes agree it is known aprox 27% to 30% is generally lost via 2wd auto
http://www.dynocomp.com/tuning.php
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by oliveoyl » Sat 14 Jun, 2014 9:38 pm

Looks a great well sorted buy.

What's the actual question? The torque should be that 'flat' given its a big capacity lowish revving v8. I don't know what a stock one makes, but the torque spread shouldn't be too affected?

Was the 340hp number he was quoting at the flywheel maybe as the dyno results you posted were 100 HP atw different?

Irrespective it's a great option for your build.
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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by kimrh » Sat 14 Jun, 2014 10:21 pm

That is why i am trying to source the final tune readouts after the correct torque converter was swapped in and correct spark plugs were fitted at a later date from the first tune that is posted above.
John is in between houses (selling & buying) and cannot locate his file with all the data in it as packed away - hence me going direct to the Tuner to retrieve the later readouts which i have asked for.
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by oliveoyl » Sun 15 Jun, 2014 7:43 am

The second gear dyno run is strange too.

The gear can affect the results with the most accurate usually in the closest gear to bring the gearset and drivetrain close to 1:1 which on most vehicles is top gear. Large variances could otherwise result.

Hth
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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by m48pro69 » Mon 16 Jun, 2014 1:42 am

Hi Kim the most notable thing you will notice with efi is your torque will go through the roof when tuned over the k jet. My old 6.9 project car I sold due to separation. Was Australian delivered 6.9 was on straight gas when I bought it. Then converted to petrol with fuel only Haltech F10 computer . which was changed to Motec M48 Pro computer . Same as V8 control management system . It had extractors and duel 2.5 inch exhaust though extractors were not as well designed as my current ones being made. This is dyno report notice torque . It made 15hp less than my standard Euro just made but numbers on rite are 600 then 900 foot pounds of torque
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Euro 6.9 #1873 325Hp flywheel & 255.6Hp rear wheels and counting

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by kimrh » Mon 16 Jun, 2014 10:21 am

That is huge torque @ low revs Jeff and same thing yours was pulled in 2nd gear
I checked back on all my dyno readings i had done on a supercharged V6 auto trans commodore back in 07 and same thing - all dyno pulls were in 2nd gear (on WA Automotive Specialist dyno and on Formula Tech Racing's dyno) The 2nd gear pull must be common with auto Trans. (That Commodore pulled 305rwhp @ 5500rpm but torque flat around 200-230ft/lb - i had valve bounce issues)

The prior owner of the 560 300CE coupe owns a few Mercs including a road only going 560SEC coupe also with a euro 300hp ECE version
He was not happy in the 560 with the Tri-Y set up and ended up having custom made headers by his exhaust expert and same thing he managed to extract more torque out of that engine
(see pic below of his 560 engine bay)
However in hopping out of the 560 (even with those improvements and both engines being in excellent condition -he strips/preps all is engines) and stepping into the 300CE 560efi and driving that down the road - he comments he is an awe of the shear "seat in the pants" pull of the 560EFI as it works its way up through the auto/trans gears (Not sure how much lighter the 300CE body is? though)
Bearing in mind the EFI560 has flow ported heads and assuming the ECE/RUF cams have not been swapped out)

Anyway the main point here is it appears there is definite gains to be had with a decent tuned EFI set-up in a well sorted engine with an appropriate exhaust system

Perhaps Gav (Dirk) who was taken for a ride in the 300CE 560EFI could comment on what he thought from sitting in the passenger seat
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87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by m48pro69 » Mon 16 Jun, 2014 11:20 am

Ok compare it to my recent stock Euro 6.9 dyno run . This was done as pre figure before Genie make extractors and exhaust. They will then dyno and again after fitting 92mm throttle. You will not it is over 200 foot pounds less dropping as low as 250 and not reaching 400 .
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Euro 6.9 #1873 325Hp flywheel & 255.6Hp rear wheels and counting

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by m48pro69 » Mon 16 Jun, 2014 11:59 am

Hi Kim as you would see the efi low comp engine was making torque out of this world compared to hi comp Euro 6.9 . So you have scored a big win with getting a fully sorted M117 with efi as its over 10 to buy fit and tune such a set up. I will keep eye on what my mods do to torque out put but I don't think there is any chance of k jet getting that kind of torque. :dance:
Euro 6.9 #1873 325Hp flywheel & 255.6Hp rear wheels and counting

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by McGavin » Mon 16 Jun, 2014 2:17 pm

Had a big long rambling essay written , but I'll edit it down to
'By golly that's quick, really quick' and furthermore 'ooh the noise ,the sweet, sweet noise'.
The previous owner spent nearly as much on this project as I spent on my first house, I don't doubt the 270kw/ 600nm for a second.

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by Hendrik » Mon 16 Jun, 2014 3:04 pm

m48pro69 wrote:Hi Kim as you would see the efi low comp engine was making torque out of this world compared to hi comp Euro 6.9 . So you have scored a big win with getting a fully sorted M117 with efi as its over 10 to buy fit and tune such a set up. I will keep eye on what my mods do to torque out put but I don't think there is any chance of k jet getting that kind of torque. :dance:
Yeah you're probably right, K jet was pretty good for HP but EFI does up the torque a bit, for instance comparing the KE and HFM M104 engines
http://wiki.mercedes-benz-classic.com/i ... 2-Motor/en 3L KE
http://wiki.mercedes-benz-classic.com/i ... 2-Motor/en 2.8 HFM
http://wiki.mercedes-benz-classic.com/i ... 2-Motor/en 3.2 HFM
The KE go the same power as the 3.2 but less torque than the 2.8 HFM

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by cuisses » Mon 16 Jun, 2014 4:50 pm

While power and torque are being discussed I would add one more thing (I apologise is this is known to everyone), which is that the power data and the torque data are in fact the same data, just plotted in a different way. This is why they give you both curves for a dyno run. If you measure power in W and torque in Nm and crank speed in rad/s then:

Power = Torque x Engine speed

If you measure engine speed in rev/min then you need to convert from rev/min to rad/s so then

Power= Torque x Engine speed/10

(The formulae become less pretty if you start using hp etc).

So, if you get the power curve you can find the torque curve and vice-versa.

This formula allows you to understand a lot of things you see on dyno curves. For example, if the torque curve has a very flat horizontal region, then the power curve will be climbing in a straight line. It also explains why the power curve always peaks later than the torque curve.

As the data quoted by Hendrik show, you can have two engines which have the same peak power, but different maximum torques, if this peak power occurs at different engine speeds. Torque is the product of two things (1) pressure in the cylinder (2) engine displacement. This is why petrol heads like big engines: 6.3's, 6.9's etc - they have to give larger torque. Power on the other hand can also be improved by running your engine very fast - if you can get enough air into it at high speeds.
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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by m48pro69 » Mon 16 Jun, 2014 7:52 pm

Yes I admit I am a petrol head I used to own a VZ Supercharged onetonner it made 614hp at the rear wheels. My therapist says I will get over driving it in the wet one day. :dontknow:
Euro 6.9 #1873 325Hp flywheel & 255.6Hp rear wheels and counting

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by CraigB » Mon 11 Aug, 2014 10:55 am

Only just seen this - that's great Kim and good of you to share detail, can save others a lot of work and experimentation.

Things I was curious about - dizzy is to negate need for crank angle sensor, but the 560 and other gen 2 motors do have one don't they? Or is it not compatible for some reason?

Also do you know what the 'right' spark plugs are and why? Im guessing that it is because using different leads - originals have resistance in leads and therefore non resistor plugs, so they may be using normal leads so need resistor plugs? Also curious about what the differences are in the ECU's he looked at and why the haltech was the winner.

Anyway will keep my eyes open for updates.
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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by kimrh » Mon 11 Aug, 2014 10:11 pm

Hi Craig
The Haltech was chosen for the job by John over in Sydney who races Mercs and his tuner swears by the Haltech ECU for its complexity but also for its ease of use in the hands of an experienced tuner.
When i contacted a local high end Tuner over here RPW (Racing Performance Works) and spoke to their Tuner about the aftermarket tuning of a later version Motronic ME M119 full sequential engine which also includes variable cam timing to make things more complicated - he said the same thing straight away "Haltech 2000" and did not hesitate at all at the task of tuning it from scratch.
They are Agents for a variety of ECU's but they state the Haltech is just brilliant.

John informed me that the old two wire magnetic reluctor that senses cam timing in the Euro M117's and the crank sensor in the bell housing was not enough to run a modern EFI
The 4 wire Hall effect conversion done to the Dizzi over east (as mentioned in my thread ) is required to run this ECU in lieu of fitting a timing wheel to the front of the crank which gets more messy (far easier to follow the path that John took - along with an after market Throttle body with a bigger diameter throat)

I think converting an M117 to a modern EFI via this path that John took as such a big step forward in unleashing the known potential of theses engines and also improving not only fuel economy but just makes it a snappier response engine for road manners at the same time.
I spoke at length with Con at AFI (Aust Fuel Injection) in Sydney about the injectors and he states that off the shelf injectors could be used with same flow by getting a custom fuel rail made up that accepts the O-ring tops (in lieu of the hoses) as the hole in the heads that takes the injectors is a common size and adapting a modern one to create a good seal would not be a problem, so the option of sourcing a new injector that flows around up to 500cc at around 3bar pressure would be a cheaper option as plenty to choose from.

This would get the rail sitting low which would mean the original M117 air-filter could be re-mounted and used to hide the EFI set-up and make it all look original factory (that would be perfect in my eyes)
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by McGavin » Tue 12 Aug, 2014 9:02 am

kimrh wrote:
This would get the rail sitting low which would mean the original M117 air-filter could be re-mounted and used to hide the EFI set-up and make it all look original factory (that would be perfect in my eyes)
I'd been thinking exactly that Kim .
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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by AMG » Tue 12 Aug, 2014 3:12 pm

cuisses wrote: So I am a little skeptical when people claim absolute values of hp based on rear-wheel measurements. If they take the engine out and measure at the flywheel, that is a different matter, and that is presumably what Mercedes do, when they quote figures.
...
I am not saying your engine is not better than stock (possibly significantly), I just wouldn't be staking too much on the actual numbers.

MB quote DIN figures, which mean all ancillaries fitted, and measured at the flywheel.

Driveline losses are a calculated estimate when it comes to dynos - the estimate being around 25% max. Current autos are around 12-15% loss, which is remarkably efficient, but does lead to some interesting rolling road figures for some... especially at dyno day shootouts etc.

I too am quite skeptical when it comes to Dyno graphs. But generally speaking, they are a reasonable ballpark figure, if the operating parameters are set correctly prior to the run.


There can be huge variances in quoting dyno figures. It's why the 'bench racers' are always at odds with the guys racing out on the track...

Take into account the 'unseen' parameters, which are usually set to a default value in the dyno, and not measured prior to doing a run. (i.e. the real reason so many graphs are wildly inaccurate)

These are basic values needed to be measured and input on an engine dyno. Some dynos can do this in realitime, some older one's cannot.

ambient air temp
relative humidity
barometric pressure
oil viscosity, temperature
fuel density & type
(air/fuel ratio)<- skip this one for the moment... (more to do with stoic vs rich/lean mapping)

Basic engine parameters measured on an engine dyno, apart from the above:
intake air temp
manifold vacuum / boost
exhaust gas temp
cylinder head temp
O2, pre & post catalyst (if req'd for engine management)
fuel pressure / flow (LPM)
injector size / flow
oil pressure

Put the engine into a vehicle, and add

Vehicle mass
Final drive ratio (differential)
tyre circumference (<- this one is often easily used to fake a dyno reading, so beware if you are doing dyno days etc where multiple different cars are on the rolling road )

What is quite 'cool' about the really modern chassis Dynos, is that they have a preconfigured list of vehicles with engine types, which means a lot of the data doesn't require changing. Also, it means that where there is an OBD port in the vehicle, this can directly plug into the chassis dyno computer, and all of the sensor readings being logged by the engine management system are fed into the dyno. Some dynos have better software than others. It is worth noting.

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that automatics, by virtue of their design have a unique function in that the torque converter actually has a couple of advantages, albeit derived from the same rotational input.

Stall speed - and
Torque multiplication factor.

Not the right time to go do an in-depth explanation of both, however suffice to say that they both relate to the efficiency of the automatic and it's optimal operational rpm range.


Now, I am certainly not saying this means Kim's dyno figures are bullshit. I'm saying he doesn't have the full picture.

One thing mentioned earlier in the thread got my attention, that being the dyno run was done in 2nd gear.

This brings a couple of advantages and also has some 'sensible' operational procedures behind it... But it is another area which can be used to 'fudge' the torque curve figures (torque converter TMF)

1. advantage is the lower gear enables the maximum advantages of the torque converter to apply (torque multiplication factor) it's maximum hydraulic advantage.
2. running the dyno at a slower speed, which is usually done for OH&S, or (in some cases) when the dyno is not equipped to run over certain wheelspeed RPM's

So, again, not saying the figures are bullshit. What data is missing - i.e. what the operator hasn't mentioned on the dyno sheet or provided to Kim are all of the other operating parameters. So no definitive or supremely accurate conclusions can be drawn either way.
What is worse (for Kim) is that without these other test parameters, he cannot use the dyno sheet he has now, as an accurate and direct measurable comparison with any Dyno run he does over in Perth. That is the really annoying bit (for Kim), which means he has to start from square 1 again, do another base run, record all the parameters and log them. Then, as modifications are made or remapping duties are performed, he can use that base data as an accurate, directly comparable reference.

A skilled Dyno operator leaves nothing to chance and most usually all of the test parameters are logged when doing the run.

If the vehicle had been run in a 1:1 (final drive) then the conclusions may be different. It's also difficult to do this with an automatic on a chassis dyno.

But the overall point is pretty simple. It's really easy to fudge the dyno figures simply by not inputting the correct parameters prior to commencing the run, and doing the run in the 'wrong gear'.

It's easier to do a dyno run in a manual car, purely because there is no kickdown occurring, and once the rolling road is up to speed, and the gearbox is in the direct 1:1 drive ratio, then full throttle can be applied and the engine spun to rpm cutout. Also, because it is a manual geabox, there is no torque multiplication factor advantage - as manual boxes do not have torque converters... (strange that eh?) thus meaning the figures at the start of the torque curve look comparatively much lower in a manual box than in an auto - such is the advantage of the automatic box's hydraulics.


All of this points to the 'why' engine dyno figures are far more accurate. Simply by eliminating the driveline losses of a gearbox and differential (and rear axles etc)

With an EFI engine on the Engine dyno, the whole room is basically a controlled environment. Everything relative to the dyno is recorded in realtime, and the dyno measures 2 identical data streams.... one from it's external measurement equipment, and one from the logging within the engine management system. This data is correlated and analyzed to provide validation, instrument correction / adjustment and optimal mapping for the engine management system.

It's also an expensive exercise, but when tuning an engine, it is the quickest and most accurate way to develop an accurate 3d map for air, fuel and ignition.

That's where the differences are. Engine dyno = accuracy, but more expensive (remove engine from car). Chassis dyno = extra effort calculating drivetrain losses, and if there is no engine dyno figures for reference, the actual RWHP measurement is still only a 'ballpark' figure and not an extremely accurate data reference.


Kim, I'd be really interested to see what the figures are if you can get a dyno run done over there. Especially as the average temps are a little different but more importantly, seasonally the humidity and air density are markedly different to here on the east coast.

And if you do get the chance to get a run, can you make sure your dyno guy measures the tyre circumference, as well as air temp, humidity and barometric pressure before turning on the cooling fans and burying the throttle!
I'm hoping the results will be as good as, or possibly a little better. But I do think you will need to adjust your mapping slightly to account for the temperature and relative humidity differences on the west coast.

But as most people know, the rule of thumb is that no 2 dyno's are the same, and the best way to minimize the inaccuracies in reporting are to publish not just a pair of graphs, but to provide all the other supporting parameters relevant to and from which the graphical data was produced.

It's like publishing a paper without the actual data to support the hypothesis. (and even then debate will ensue... :laughing6: )

Reminds me of all those ads you used to see in the hot car magazines.... "this Nitrous kit is a bolt on and gives up to 300bhp" and all the other claims... 20% this and this oil is 10% better, that octane booster is 10% more power, this filter is 5% more power..... it goes on and on and on.
I mean, if we all did the same thing and the claims were valid (like the dyno figures), then we'd all have cars running at 200% efficiency and making 900rwhp. hmmmm something's gotta give.

And while we all like to see pretty graphs, they are only as good as the person producing them.

I hope Kim gets the chance to dyno the car with a good chassis dyno operator and log accurate environmental measurements. I think Kim might get a pleasant surprise. :occasion5:

Certainly the figures mentioned in the graph are not unrealistically achievable - But I think the one thing not really being taken into account is the fact we are talking about a freshly built engine, and not a standard specification engine of 20+ years and 200,000km of average maintenance.

One cannot simply expect their old v8 to produce the same power on EFI simply by doing an efi conversion. Kim's engine has had extensive headwork, the camshafts are currently of an unknown lift & duration (whether they are standard, ECE or custom is not verified) and when an engine is freshened up in such a way, it is always going to produce better figures than a standard car with a 20+ year old high mileage engine.

Also, given the CIS-E is a bit of a behemoth in the engine bay, moving to a more efficient modern EFI system is going to benefit. Not just because it is more modern, but because the modern system is more accurate in measuring and delivery, as well as timing.
It has a higher resolution of sensor measurement, which means more accurate and optimal fuel delivery and spark timing. Simply put, the chances of making the most power from the same displacement is more easily achievable with the modern engine management system. The added bonus is better efficiency, and (possibly) better fuel economy. Of course, the latter depends on how you drive it...

cheers,
Joe
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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cuisses
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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by cuisses » Tue 12 Aug, 2014 8:06 pm

I looked at this post from the bottom up and I thought "Hell, where does it start?" and then I saw it was partly in response to something I wrote. I counted 1788 words!
I am currently doing a uni course (just for fun), and it has two pieces of assessment - a 2000 word essay and a 2500 word essay. A couple more posts of this length and AMG will have done enough- but he has to start writing about the novels of Jane Austen, which might annoy more than a few forum members. :laughing6:
David Williams

W108 280SE 4.5 (Papyrus White and Palomino)

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AMG
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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by AMG » Tue 12 Aug, 2014 8:36 pm

Sorry David,
Pride & Prejudice / Sense & Sensibility / Mansfield Park / Emma etc will just have to wait until I have memorized the w201 service manual.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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kimrh
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Joined: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 3:18 pm
Model you own: w126
Location: Perth WA

Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by kimrh » Tue 12 Aug, 2014 9:51 pm

Joe is right and i totally agree with the point he is trying to get across - no question about that
My take on a dyno is simply -
"that it is a good tuning tool to simulate "as best it can" resistance over varying rear wheel speeds and simulated conditions- so the tuner can dial in the input parameters as best he can.
An engine dyno is another step up in accuracy but more expensive to do.

What i do sit up and take notice of is when a guy who i know well and has club track raced mercs over many years and also is very familiar with the W126 560 engine (he still owns a very nice street version Euro 560 ECE coupe) tells me he cannot believe how strong this engine runs out on the track (as it was purpose rebuilt for track racing duties) with the EFI conversion and ported heads being the key. Standard MB 300HP ECE/RUF cams remain though, so no real major engine mods other than the engine stripped/checked and re-built with parts replaced as necessary.
So from the horses mouth he is talking seat in the pants stuff out on the tarmac - with now 2,000kms driving clocked up since the re-build/EFI conversion - then that definitely speaks for itself without relying on dyno readouts.

The main take on this story still focuses on converting your M117 from an old bosch system to a modern EFI system does have very good benefits -
(providing your engine is still in good nic)
How much difference the ported heads makes i don't know, but it is obvious the swapped in larger throttle body has made a positive impact in this instance without affecting driveability.

Yes when i get the engine over here and in the car i can take it to my local Haltech Tuner and get it fine tuned for my coupes set-up and ambient conditions over here and then i will be able report back on this thread as to the difference i feel out on the road.
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by McGavin » Thu 04 Sep, 2014 5:06 pm

Unstitched the Haltech loom, labeling each plug as I went, removed radiator, oil cooler, trans cooler, exhaust system and trans crossmember. Have cracked a can so perhaps just power steering and engine mounts tonight, start fresh tomorrow and lift Kim's 5.6 and auto out, hopefully enough room to get them out together.
Image
Image
Exhaust is restricted to a flattened 2 1/2 at muffler, quiet at idle, 2 neighbors inquired about the noise when I originally backed it off the trailer into the shed.
Won't be long till it's in WA breathing life into a black widebody SEC. ;)

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kimrh
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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by kimrh » Fri 05 Sep, 2014 10:28 am

Gav got back home late last night finally after a week on the road. Sent you an email.
The process starts - not sure if you can pull the engin/trans without having the car raised a bit allow underneath clearance - someone chime in
Cheers Kim
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by McGavin » Fri 05 Sep, 2014 10:53 am

It's in the air, not much room in there, he did well to squeeze it in in the first place.

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McGavin
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M117 EFI Conversion done - Haltech Pro 2000

Post by McGavin » Sat 06 Sep, 2014 3:39 pm

Image

Well , that was a tight fit, mm's to spare.

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