W124 bodyshell trim question

1986-1995 : 200TD, 200CE, E200, 260E, 300E 2.6, 300E 2.8, 300E, E320, 400E, E420, 500E, E500, 300CE, E320, 230TE, 300TE, 300D 2.5 TURBO, E300 DIESEL, 300TD, 300E 4MATIC, 300TE 4MATIC, E36 AMG
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Baldrick56
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Posts: 17
Joined: Mon 30 Apr, 2018 1:03 pm
Model you own: w124
Region: New South Wales
Location: Katoomba

W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by Baldrick56 » Sat 19 May, 2018 6:41 pm

G'day all,

struck a little issue with my new (to me) 1988 300E sedan. Been attempting to 'tidy' some things & noticed that the trim pieces that form the 'roof rails' were loose (over whole length on nearside & over screen on offside). Decided to capitalise on this as there was a small bubble in the paint on the offside A pillar (stonechip I thought), so hoiked the trim out of the way & attacked with rotary wire brush. The corrosion extended way down where the trim would sit & at one point a 'pinhole' appeared. Had a similar issue recently with my 404 on the front valance ahead of the screen where I'd idly let a rust spot develop & had a pinhole by the time I pulled off the panel for a fix. In that case I rigged up a MIG welder on low power / low feed & blobbed in some fresh metal. Briefly considered same tactic on the Merc but the proximity of the screen & lack of access behind panel ruled it out. No real fix for this other than Mercedes no doubt overdesign of the shell :whistle:
Anyway first coat of primer on today, 24Hrs to wait for next :boohoo: but the question is when I took the trim pieces off the metal clips corresponding to where the pairs of holes through the shell are came off too - these suggest they were originally riveted into the holes? (possibly self-tapper). Another question I s'pose is why someone drilled out the rivets - or at least removed clips without replacing. Possible answer is that (another discovery) I have a water leak into the interior :banghead: Thought the highest probability was the sunroof seal / drainholes (sunroof =one of the many electric accoutrements that doesn't work) but maybe its the screenseal :dontknow:
Plan at the moment is to complete painting, refix clips (anyone tell what they're supposed to use?) then replace trim at the same time sealer the bejasus out of all the gaps at the edges top, unless anyone can think of a more cunning plan :pale:
P1030330.JPG
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P1030333.JPG
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Regards
Baldrick

Fleet:
Mercedes W124 300E 1988 ('Der Valkyrie')
MG ZR160 2005 ('Big Nellie')
Smart 452 Roadster 2003 ('Little Nellie')
Peugeot 505 Station Wagon 1989 ('Louis 505th')
Peugeot 404 Sedan 1969 ('Louis 404th')
Citroen Traction Avant 1953 ('Matilda' - under restoration)
Bristol 401 1953 (under restoration)
That's one for each day of the week - I really ought to stop :think:

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Bartman4800
300 SLR
Posts: 1989
Joined: Fri 10 Oct, 2008 12:10 am
Model you own: w111
Location: Perth WA

Re: W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by Bartman4800 » Mon 21 May, 2018 12:28 pm

Best thing would be to remove those wind screens. Otherwise you cannot really remove all the rust.

You can do that yourself (using a piano wire) or you can ask a glazier to do that for you.
I have done it dozens of times in my days at Novus in the Netherlands.

It is quite hard to break tempered glass, just make sure you do not chip the edges.
Remove the excess glue with a very sharp wood chisel

Once it is out, remove the rust then treat it with Phosphoric acid (Bunnings etc) to clean out the pits.

Primer and paint the edges thoroughly

Re-glue with Sikaflex 255 for automotive glazing (DO NOT USE SILICONE!!!).

These windows do not have a screen seal, the glue is the sealant.
Unless a dodgy job has been done before they do not leak. But looking at how your trim was attached (with sealant) it was a dodgy job.....


Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

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John Green
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Re: W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by John Green » Mon 21 May, 2018 9:28 pm

Bartman4800 wrote:
Mon 21 May, 2018 12:28 pm
It is quite hard to break tempered glass, just make sure you do not chip the edges.
True, but that is a laminated screen and will break if you look at it with bad thoughts on your mind. Removal with piano wire is still the go, but you need to be insane careful. Any chance you have windscreen cover on your insurance? :think: :think: :think:
Inaugural OZBENZ national meet this September, all welcome to attend. https://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=25165

M.B Spares & Service 14-16 Lyell St, Fyshwick ACT. Ph 02 6239 1099

http://mbspares.com.au - Supporting Australia's Mercedes-Benz Enthusiasts.

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Bartman4800
300 SLR
Posts: 1989
Joined: Fri 10 Oct, 2008 12:10 am
Model you own: w111
Location: Perth WA

Re: W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by Bartman4800 » Tue 22 May, 2018 1:05 pm

John Green wrote:
Mon 21 May, 2018 9:28 pm
Bartman4800 wrote:
Mon 21 May, 2018 12:28 pm
It is quite hard to break tempered glass, just make sure you do not chip the edges.
True, but that is a laminated screen and will break if you look at it with bad thoughts on your mind. Removal with piano wire is still the go, but you need to be insane careful. Any change you have windscreen cover on your insurance? :think: :think: :think:
Really?

So is that just for the rear quarter windows or all side/rear screens?

Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

Baldrick56
B Class
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon 30 Apr, 2018 1:03 pm
Model you own: w124
Region: New South Wales
Location: Katoomba

Re: W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by Baldrick56 » Tue 22 May, 2018 8:33 pm

Thanks Bartman, thanks John,

One job I've never attempted on any of the multiple cars I've owned is removing any of the 'glassware' (OK exception is side window, where it just unbolts). That goes for the old fashioned rubber seal / piece of string / lock it in with the metal trimstrip type as well as the newer 'bonded' ones. Many's the time I've stood & watched the auto glazier at work by the roadside putting a screen in (Ah those toughened windshields of old), they made it look easy but I was never convinced. How much more difficult on a bonded one :pray: Knowing my timescale I'd say about 1-2 years to psyche myself up to attempt the task. I need to get the Rego stuff done a lot quicker than that sadly so I'm thinking a more temporary fix in the short term (already got the topcoat on the 'A' pillar now).

Did also attempt to move further along to discover the source of the water leak, I applied socket to the hex drive in the boot & wound away, the sunroof popped up so I wound back & the panel dropped & started to slide back - enough for me to poke a bit of curtain wire down the drain tubes so I'm reasonably convinced they're clear. Also prised out the rubber seal to attempt to find a match in 'Clark Rubber.' Problem I have now is when attempting to wind back the roof it slides to the front but the rear part doesn't seem to rise flush to meet the roof. Am I missing a trick with this? (did discover a white plastic 'button' under the hexdrive that appears to click in & out - does this affect the mechanism?
Regards,
Rob
Regards
Baldrick

Fleet:
Mercedes W124 300E 1988 ('Der Valkyrie')
MG ZR160 2005 ('Big Nellie')
Smart 452 Roadster 2003 ('Little Nellie')
Peugeot 505 Station Wagon 1989 ('Louis 505th')
Peugeot 404 Sedan 1969 ('Louis 404th')
Citroen Traction Avant 1953 ('Matilda' - under restoration)
Bristol 401 1953 (under restoration)
That's one for each day of the week - I really ought to stop :think:

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John Green
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Posts: 6673
Joined: Mon 20 Jun, 2005 3:49 am
Model you own: w112
Region: Australian Capital Territory
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Re: W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by John Green » Wed 23 May, 2018 12:59 pm

Bartman4800 wrote:
Tue 22 May, 2018 1:05 pm
John Green wrote:
Mon 21 May, 2018 9:28 pm
Bartman4800 wrote:
Mon 21 May, 2018 12:28 pm
It is quite hard to break tempered glass, just make sure you do not chip the edges.
True, but that is a laminated screen and will break if you look at it with bad thoughts on your mind. Removal with piano wire is still the go, but you need to be insane careful. Any change you have windscreen cover on your insurance? :think: :think: :think:
Really?So is that just for the rear quarter windows or all side/rear screens?
All front screen from the late 60's onwards are laminated, all rear screens with a heating element in them (except RSA models) are laminated. Sometimes you have to look real close to see the element in the glass.

Unless you ticked the box for bullet proof, side glass is toughened glass.
Inaugural OZBENZ national meet this September, all welcome to attend. https://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=25165

M.B Spares & Service 14-16 Lyell St, Fyshwick ACT. Ph 02 6239 1099

http://mbspares.com.au - Supporting Australia's Mercedes-Benz Enthusiasts.

User avatar
John Green
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Re: W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by John Green » Wed 23 May, 2018 1:00 pm

Baldrick56 wrote:
Tue 22 May, 2018 8:33 pm
(did discover a white plastic 'button' under the hexdrive that appears to click in & out - does this affect the mechanism?
Regards,
Rob
The white button is used to make fine adjustments to the micro switches that control the motor so it stops int he right place for tilt up, down ,etc.
Inaugural OZBENZ national meet this September, all welcome to attend. https://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=25165

M.B Spares & Service 14-16 Lyell St, Fyshwick ACT. Ph 02 6239 1099

http://mbspares.com.au - Supporting Australia's Mercedes-Benz Enthusiasts.

Baldrick56
B Class
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon 30 Apr, 2018 1:03 pm
Model you own: w124
Region: New South Wales
Location: Katoomba

Re: W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by Baldrick56 » Thu 24 May, 2018 6:58 am

Thanks John,
Guess I need a new cable then - add to the shopping list.
Regards Rob
Regards
Baldrick

Fleet:
Mercedes W124 300E 1988 ('Der Valkyrie')
MG ZR160 2005 ('Big Nellie')
Smart 452 Roadster 2003 ('Little Nellie')
Peugeot 505 Station Wagon 1989 ('Louis 505th')
Peugeot 404 Sedan 1969 ('Louis 404th')
Citroen Traction Avant 1953 ('Matilda' - under restoration)
Bristol 401 1953 (under restoration)
That's one for each day of the week - I really ought to stop :think:

Baldrick56
B Class
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon 30 Apr, 2018 1:03 pm
Model you own: w124
Region: New South Wales
Location: Katoomba

Re: W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by Baldrick56 » Sat 26 May, 2018 8:13 pm

OK so it's definitely Rivets (found some of the old broken ones in the pieces), screen re-sealed (Sikaflex 221 plus some other cheapo stuff in a toothpaste tube for the really awkward fiddly bits). metalwork repainted, clips pop-riveted back on & trim refixed. Just got to wait for rain now to test out the repair :clock:

Clark Rubber had one possibility for the sunroof seal (also can get the 'official' version online I've discovered), however still can't budge the thing, did try prising the internal headliner panel off today but didn't want to bust it (Lord knows why, the rest of the interior is shite :laughing6:) - is there a trick other than pulling downwards in the middle 'til its not there anymore to remove this? presumably you can get to the cable fixing with this removed?
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P1030354.JPG
P1030355.JPG
P1030356.JPG
Happy fixing
Rob
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Regards
Baldrick

Fleet:
Mercedes W124 300E 1988 ('Der Valkyrie')
MG ZR160 2005 ('Big Nellie')
Smart 452 Roadster 2003 ('Little Nellie')
Peugeot 505 Station Wagon 1989 ('Louis 505th')
Peugeot 404 Sedan 1969 ('Louis 404th')
Citroen Traction Avant 1953 ('Matilda' - under restoration)
Bristol 401 1953 (under restoration)
That's one for each day of the week - I really ought to stop :think:

User avatar
Bartman4800
300 SLR
Posts: 1989
Joined: Fri 10 Oct, 2008 12:10 am
Model you own: w111
Location: Perth WA

Re: W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by Bartman4800 » Mon 28 May, 2018 11:09 am

Hi Rob,

A bit of a pity you pop-riveted those rusty clamps back in place.

They will continue to rust, can leave so brown streaks on the paint and might rot a hole in the body.

It takes a bit of time, but you could have brought them to a zinc plating company who would have dropped them in an acid bath and plated them.

Usually 5 aud a kilo, with a minimum price...


My 2.5 cents, Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

Baldrick56
B Class
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon 30 Apr, 2018 1:03 pm
Model you own: w124
Region: New South Wales
Location: Katoomba

Re: W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by Baldrick56 » Fri 01 Jun, 2018 7:53 pm

Perhaps my perfectionisms taken a long holiday, but I've got much more serious rust issues I've now discovered - started another post "Rusty Rocker Panels" - oh & I still cannot budge that darn sunroof - interior trim's half out but doesn't want to go further. I read elsewhere on this forum someone proposing to weld the sunroof permanently shut - consensus was that wasn't a good idea - I'm with that only because I know how difficult it is to get a gastight / watertight weld (I made a stainless exhaust for my 404) - but I'm seriously thinking of unbolting the panel, propping it in alignment & 'Sika 221'ing the thing permanently shut & watertight.

Any ideas?

Happy fixing

Rob
Regards
Baldrick

Fleet:
Mercedes W124 300E 1988 ('Der Valkyrie')
MG ZR160 2005 ('Big Nellie')
Smart 452 Roadster 2003 ('Little Nellie')
Peugeot 505 Station Wagon 1989 ('Louis 505th')
Peugeot 404 Sedan 1969 ('Louis 404th')
Citroen Traction Avant 1953 ('Matilda' - under restoration)
Bristol 401 1953 (under restoration)
That's one for each day of the week - I really ought to stop :think:

Baldrick56
B Class
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon 30 Apr, 2018 1:03 pm
Model you own: w124
Region: New South Wales
Location: Katoomba

Re: W124 bodyshell trim question

Post by Baldrick56 » Fri 06 Jul, 2018 2:24 pm

OK so been busy with the metalwork so the roof's been left as was, but this am I finally removed the interior trim panel. Read up the (official) manual section on how to remove first but either I'm thicker than I thought or it's not quite correct. Anyway it's out now but not a pretty sight.
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P1030413.JPG
What I'm left with is a tube running back from the centre (which I'm guessing is for the cable - no cable here), but no "winding mechanism" that I was expecting to see. If I sit in the car & pull hard I can move the roof (a bit), to the accompaniment of a noise like dragging a safe full of bullion across a gravel drive (not that I've done that recently :think: ).
P1030414.JPG
Also a small plastic 'channel' fell out once I eventually got the trim removed
P1030415.JPG
Now the conundrum - I know I can get a new motor +new cable (with the added delight of paying an extra 10% now). looking at the mess it all is I'm not confident that'll sort the issues however. Do I really want / need a sunroof? No (if I'm really desperate for fresh air motoring I'll take the roadster for a spin). Do I need a watertight car? - Definitely. So I'm thinking of dragging it forward, unbolting the panel if I have to & wedging it in alignment with the roof & sealing the darn thing there forever. What I do about the interior trim I don't know at this stage.
Happy fixing,
Rob
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Regards
Baldrick

Fleet:
Mercedes W124 300E 1988 ('Der Valkyrie')
MG ZR160 2005 ('Big Nellie')
Smart 452 Roadster 2003 ('Little Nellie')
Peugeot 505 Station Wagon 1989 ('Louis 505th')
Peugeot 404 Sedan 1969 ('Louis 404th')
Citroen Traction Avant 1953 ('Matilda' - under restoration)
Bristol 401 1953 (under restoration)
That's one for each day of the week - I really ought to stop :think:

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