I thought it was a starter motor but...

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hyjinx
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I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by hyjinx » Wed 28 Nov, 2018 8:49 pm

Hi,

my w124 since i bought has had on the odd occasion times when you turn the key and you get all power but absolutely no crank no ticks just nothing and then next try it normally kicked. Until 2 weeks ago it did it a few days in a row. then nothing every go.

So i thought it may have been the starter so i took it out and tested it and its spinning and moving as it should.

Possible other causes? Ignition wiring? I went through fuses and didnt seem to have any blown. I havent refit the starter yet but thought id ask and see if anyone has a possible idea or things to check out.

Cheers
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by John Green » Thu 29 Nov, 2018 1:02 pm

No real need to have pulled the starter. Follow the wires from the starter and you should arrive at a terminal block. You can test most functions from here. There is a purple/mauve wire there maybe with a white stripe. You need to check if it has 12vts when you have the ignition switch in the crank position. If there is no 12vt signal, the issue is either switch or some electrical gremlins in the dash.

If you have a 12vt signal then you need to double check all connections are clean and tight, before jumping in and pulling the starter. A loose earth from the body to the engine might be the issue, likewise poor connections in the terminal block. You can temporarily resolve a poor earth by connecting a jumper cable from the negative terminal connector on the loom to a good earth point on the engine.

Also remember that you can have 12vts, but not enough amps to make it all happen. This is usually caused by a poor contact somewhere along the way.
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by Henry Schuman » Fri 30 Nov, 2018 1:47 am

If you have an automatic Transmission Make sure the shift lever bushings/ rear motor are not worn out and the shift lever is not causing all your problems. Push forward on the lever or put it in Neutral and try starting .
Don't Squat With Your Spurs On !!!!

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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by hyjinx » Sun 02 Dec, 2018 6:24 pm

Awesome info thanks guys.

I will be back on it this weekend so hopefully i can sort the bugger out. Ill reinstall and go through those checks. I did think it could have been the shifter at first cause it was intermitten so ill hopefully find the issue earlier rather than later.
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by Ivanerrol » Sun 02 Dec, 2018 8:08 pm

Try wiggling the shifter in Park and then in neutral while turning the key. That’s generally a good indication that your shifter bushings are not up to scratch.

Bushings are very cheap but a PITA to change without the special tool.
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by hyjinx » Sat 08 Dec, 2018 4:29 pm

Well thanks all the info givers :D

I reinstalled the starter, checked the mauve/white connection for 12v ,proceeded to clean up some of the earths in engine bay, under the car and the ones in the boot for the tailights.
Trying to start after each event, no change, i think put it in neutral and held the shifter the right and it started.
After turning it off i just left it in park and its just starting now.

So im thinking its the bush in the shifter lever but im still abit non the wiser lol.

So either way its starting and ill next look to getting that changed to eliminate it from the equation 100%.

Thanks again :notworthy:
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by hyjinx » Tue 11 Dec, 2018 9:49 pm

Next question,

Where do i get shift rod bushing from? Prefer local if possible (sydney) or at least a local postage cost?
Ive also done alittle more research and noticed some people change the neutral starter switch when its not starting in P, N similar to mine, it sounds like a pain in the arse to change as well :(
cheers
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71 - 280SE 3.5 "Seedyz" R.I.P.

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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by Tony From West Oz » Tue 11 Dec, 2018 11:30 pm

It is 10 years since I replaced the bushings on my Wife's 300D but the $tealer$hip have them and they were fairly cheap back then.
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by Christo C » Wed 12 Dec, 2018 9:36 am

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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by AMG » Wed 12 Dec, 2018 3:40 pm

While you're underneath and replacing the shifter linkage bushes, you would do well to clean the connector for the reverse lockout switch (the actual thing that's stopping it from starting) and make sure it is correctly adjusted once the linkage bushes have been replaced.

The contacts in the switch only connect the (purple? from memory) wires to complete the starter circuit. If the switch is adjusted incorrectly, and a bush wears or falls out, it can prevent the vehicle from starting at all.

Occasionally, the switch breaks. Not often, but occasionally. That's something that happens with age. it's a 20 minute job to replace. Suggest you DIY that one if you ever have to.

Then the last thing to check is the actual ignition switch itself. That's the big switch attached to the back of the ignition barrel. You will need to remove it to see if it's completely broken, but again - it is one of those things that can happen (at the absolute most inconvenient time) and it is by far the most 'annoying' of all the three tasks to complete - only from a contortion perspective.

Transmission lockout switch replacment? easiest.
Shifter linkage bush replacement? second easiest - frustrating without the factory insertion tool, but you can fab one from a set of long pointed nose pliers and a couple valve spring retainers and a welder.
ignition switch replacement? 100% pain in the arse. Just getting under the dash on most MB's is annoying enough, but the 124 & 201 are just plain tight, even with the seat all the way back and the door wide open.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by hyjinx » Wed 12 Dec, 2018 6:42 pm

I messaged silver star lastnight parts arent avail til next year unfortunatly :(

When the bush is flogged out does it actually make the shifter sloppy, mine doesnt feel worn out or any different to my previous mercs tbh.
So looks like summer cruising is out of the question this year as she isnt starting again at all no matter what i do to the shifter. BOO HISS :banghead:

I have to agree getting under the dash isnt fun at all on this benz i think ill pull the seat out if i have to venture under the dash again.

cheers for the help yet again its very much appreciated.
89 - 230E "Meghan Mercle"
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by Dean 560 SEC » Thu 13 Dec, 2018 10:41 am

Don't miss summer cruising - just bypass it and make sure you're always in P when you start it.

Life's too short to not cruise your Benz!
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by AMG » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 10:55 am

hyjinx wrote:
Wed 12 Dec, 2018 6:42 pm
I messaged silver star lastnight parts arent avail til next year unfortunatly :(

When the bush is flogged out does it actually make the shifter sloppy, mine doesnt feel worn out or any different to my previous mercs tbh.
So looks like summer cruising is out of the question this year as she isnt starting again at all no matter what i do to the shifter. BOO HISS :banghead:

I have to agree getting under the dash isnt fun at all on this benz i think ill pull the seat out if i have to venture under the dash again.

cheers for the help yet again its very much appreciated.
It doesn't actually make the shifter itself "sloppy" The shifter gate should still feel natural. What you will notice, is that as you move the lever through the gate, that there is a "delay" which is caused by the gap in the linkage, from the worn out / missing bushes.

There are occasions where you may find yourself having to put your foot on the brake, move the shifter somewhere between N &R but not quite in the detent of either gear, and that way You will be able to turn the key with your other hand and start the car.

Yes, it's common, and it can happen suddenly just as easily as it is as commonly understood to be a gradual issue that you notice getting worse, yet choose to defer..

... and yes, many don't bother to do the bush on the shifter, because it's often difficult to weasel yourself into a position to effectively change it without the "tool" and moreso without a hoist.

Perhaps I should make a more permanent solution as I have done in the past with derin bushes for the manual shifter linkages.

hmmm. :think:
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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hyjinx
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by hyjinx » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 7:22 pm

My friend at work is a bit of a gun on the lathe and has done some delrin work for me once before so i have ordered some bushes and will get him o make me a copy when he has a chance.

ill make a tool i got a sacrificial long set of needle nose pliers so ill hack that up soon also. Unfortunately ill be not be doing it on a hoist so ill just prepare for some long angry hours under a car with minimal access i guess hahaha the joys.

I havent been able to fluke it in to a position to start again so i really hope this is the issue but from all accounts and the symptoms it really does seem to be the issue.
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71 - 280SE 3.5 "Seedyz" R.I.P.

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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by Charlie Buckett » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 8:13 pm

You only need 2 long handled (30cm) screwdrivers and preferably some long needle nose pliers, then just some imagination.
I purchased the bush from the stealership for $8 (the bush is still available from dealerships as it is still used on the latest cars for various uses.

Kent Bergasma makes this look much trickier than it is (Gee! Look how hard it is to get my fat hands up there, Gee Wizz, You had better buy my tool).

The slim channel is actually perfect for bracing the screwdrivers (or whatever you choose to use) that allows the job to be done in 2 minutes,

Put the car on ramps, or two jack stands safely.

The old bush does not need to be pushed out, it will be old and brittle and broken and will remove easily enough.

Then brace (hold the linkage from moving) from one side of the channel with 1 long handled tool, then lubricate and squeeze and sit the rubber bushing into the linkage position (this can be done just enough so that it will sit without falling), then take the other very long handled flat head screw driver and squeeze/push the bushing into the linkage,working around the edge. (make sure you have lubricated well).
The bushing will go in without a special compressing tool.
It took me about 10 minutes to work out what I would do and what tools. And then about 2 minutes to do it. No need for special $18 tool plus $15 postage.
The stealership didn't have the clip but providing you don't lose the old one it can be reused.

Good luck

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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by AMG » Tue 18 Dec, 2018 6:37 pm

Charlie Buckett wrote:
Sun 16 Dec, 2018 8:13 pm
Kent Bergasma makes this look much trickier than it is (Gee! Look how hard it is to get my fat hands up there, Gee Wizz, You had better buy my tool).
:laughing6: :laughing5: :laughing6: :laughing5: :clock: :coffee2:
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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hyjinx
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by hyjinx » Sun 23 Dec, 2018 12:17 pm

swapped out the bushes .and no change.

so to bypass the nuetral saftey switch ive read u connect 2 wire that are under the dash. is that correct if so what wires? is there another way? i didnt get a new nss when i was ordering parts so ill be ordering one but would like to just see if it starts.

any of these wires happen to be the ones im searching for??
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by AMG » Sun 23 Dec, 2018 5:14 pm

The wiring harness stub for the transmission lockout switch is in the passenger footwell on the left side of the transmission tunnel, forward of the lockout switch.

replacing the lockout switch is a 10 minute job max. unplug the harness connector. undo the linkage and 2 screws, replace in reverse order.
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Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Charlie Buckett
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by Charlie Buckett » Sun 23 Dec, 2018 7:46 pm

I've gone through what you're going through.
I hoped it was the bushing, replaced, no joy (but it was brittle and only half was left in there, so it did need doing)
So I thought it was what AMG is referring to as, the 'lock out switch'.
Replaced but no joy.
It was the ignition switch all along.
A bugger to replace so I installed a push start button.

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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by hyjinx » Mon 07 Jan, 2019 3:04 pm

:angryfire: :angry5: :angry4: :angry4: :angryfire:
SAGA Continues!

Spent yesterday with the intention of bypassing the NSS found the other end of the wiring off the switch opened it up wasnt 100% sure what ones to cross got cold feet put it back together. CAR STARTS MAGICAL and 1 day before rego expires YAY! So without bypassing it we bypassed it. it starts in all gears but thats okay do a few other clean up things put interior back together ready for a date with the pinky man.

CAR Starts again take it to my pinkslip man starts his inspection and i have no low beams or high beams :wall: :wall: :wall: have parkers though.
So back homes i go Pull dash apart find the wires to the highbeam have come off in the rush to get it back together LIGHTS fixed YAY. Drive off down the street a friend tells me OI reverse lights are on. :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire:

Back we go home. Reverse lights on in drive not in reverse try to adjust the nss result no lights at all. Go to MB Classic Star and get another NSS.
Install goto start in N doesnt start re-adjust and it starts starts in P try reverse lights and NO go Repeat adjusting another 6 times & no reverse lights.

Yes checked fuses
yes checked globes
also the car still starts in other gears
What actual hell is going on. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
And back to work tomorrow grrr
89 - 230E "Meghan Mercle"
71 - 280SE "Browntown" R.I.P.
71 - 280SE 3.5 "Seedyz" R.I.P.

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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by John Green » Thu 10 Jan, 2019 8:11 pm

hyjinx wrote:
Mon 07 Jan, 2019 3:04 pm
:angryfire: :angry5: :angry4: :angry4: :angryfire:
SAGA Continues!

Go to MB Classic Star and get another NSS.
Install goto start in N doesnt start re-adjust and it starts starts in P try reverse lights and NO go Repeat adjusting another 6 times & no reverse lights.

What actual hell is going on. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
And back to work tomorrow grrr
I'm guessing that you brought a used switch? if so bad idea, always use new electrical parts, especially when you have a fluky diagnosis.

Even used parts that test OK on the wreck they were pulled from can no longer work once transferred over.
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Re: I thought it was a starter motor but...

Post by hyjinx » Sun 13 Jan, 2019 9:10 am

Ok the saga has been resolved. :dance:

The 2nd switch works fine, what was happening was i bent the arm on the gearbox when i put the bushes in and as it cycled through the gears it was dropping out of the groove.

I spent some time getting it as straight as i could again then tested to see if the reverse lights were working using the switch plugged in but not attached to the box when all that was confirmed i did the process ive now done too many times.

It all works as it should now and i got rego a couple of days late but its all good. What an absolute pain it was but good to get alot more familiar with cars components.

Thanks everyone that has given idea as to what it was and how to repair it the help has been awesome. :occasion5: :notworthy:
89 - 230E "Meghan Mercle"
71 - 280SE "Browntown" R.I.P.
71 - 280SE 3.5 "Seedyz" R.I.P.

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