Coupe to road

1976-1985: 230T, 230E, 230TE, 230CE, 280E, 280TE, 280CE, 240D, 300D, 300CD, 300TD,
mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 11 Oct, 2018 7:01 pm

So, still having issues with this lumpy idle.

So far.

Valve adjustment
new injectors @ 145 BAR
injection pump valves removed, cleaned and put back in.
new filters + fuel


Engine mounts are next on the list. Kinda running out of things to check haha.

https://youtu.be/hCGojkm_QnA

User avatar
Tony From West Oz
OZBENZ moderator
Posts: 3241
Joined: Mon 20 Jun, 2005 9:04 pm
Model you own: w202
Location: Bedfordale WA

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Tony From West Oz » Thu 11 Oct, 2018 11:30 pm

Did you notice the wear on the cam follower on one valve (around the middle of the cam) was offset - wearing on one side of the cam follower.
I did mention this as the most likely cause of the lumpy idle when warm and included spare parts to overcome this issue.
Tony
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (SOLD)
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car - Sold)
'06 Ssanyong Musso Crew Cab 2WD Ute (OM662 diesel and Auto Transmission)

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 11 Oct, 2018 11:54 pm

Tony From West Oz wrote:
Thu 11 Oct, 2018 11:30 pm
Did you notice the wear on the cam follower on one valve (around the middle of the cam) was offset - wearing on one side of the cam follower.
I did mention this as the most likely cause of the lumpy idle when warm and included spare parts to overcome this issue.
Tony
I saw some wear on a cam lobe, but didn't think it was in the contact area.

I'll take another look with the valve cover off tomorrow :)

Cheers for the reply.

I'll take some good pictures.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Mon 15 Oct, 2018 8:04 pm

Evening all, sorry about the delay in reply with an update, it's been raining so much here i've not had much of a chance for car work.

So Tony suggested looking at the rockers.
20181015_141228 - Copy.jpg
hmm, just now starting to take a look.

It seems the sleeves have been damaged.
20181015_141416 - Copy.jpg
closer examination
20181015_162944.jpg
after filing the excess off, it was time to mock up reinstallation and see what's happening.

So, it seems the rod doesn't have the notch cutout in the right spot for the locking down bolt to pass through and keep it all together and in place...
20181015_171507.jpg
So, rather than trying to wedge it all together, which is possibly the cause of the rough idle due to excess stress on the rocker arms, i decided to cut out the excess material.

Using a hand angle grinder with a sanding disc, i got this as a result, not too bad i think considering by hand with no guides in the shed.
20181015_172530.jpg
after doing this, i went and mocked it all up again.

Perfect :)

So i'll be putting it all together again tomorrow morning.

Also to do, run a small wire through the Fuel hardlines between the injection pump to injectors, as per how things were gummed up before, i'm pretty sure the passageways need a good cleaning out as well.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Tony From West Oz
OZBENZ moderator
Posts: 3241
Joined: Mon 20 Jun, 2005 9:04 pm
Model you own: w202
Location: Bedfordale WA

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Tony From West Oz » Mon 15 Oct, 2018 9:53 pm

Hmmmm so it was that way since the engine overhaul.
Was the rod symmetrical, or is there an offset at one end of it causing the offset of the bolt hole at one end?
Was the rod bent at all?, I originally felt that this may have been the cause of the unusual wear on the rocker.
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (SOLD)
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car - Sold)
'06 Ssanyong Musso Crew Cab 2WD Ute (OM662 diesel and Auto Transmission)

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Tue 16 Oct, 2018 6:53 pm

it's strange, the parts were forced together to hard, i do wonder if the rocker towers were straight.

the 2 rods looked to be within 0.5mm of each other in terms of straightness, i held them up to one another against the light and they both seemed perfectly straight, i would just say how things were forced together may have caused things not to run so well.

i do hope the other rocker towers are good.....

rain again so no car stuff today.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Tue 16 Oct, 2018 7:46 pm

Tony From West Oz wrote:
Mon 15 Oct, 2018 9:53 pm
Hmmmm so it was that way since the engine overhaul.
Was the rod symmetrical, or is there an offset at one end of it causing the offset of the bolt hole at one end?
Was the rod bent at all?, I originally felt that this may have been the cause of the unusual wear on the rocker.
has the lumpy idle been there since day 1 of engine overhaul ?>

User avatar
Tony From West Oz
OZBENZ moderator
Posts: 3241
Joined: Mon 20 Jun, 2005 9:04 pm
Model you own: w202
Location: Bedfordale WA

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Tony From West Oz » Tue 16 Oct, 2018 11:30 pm

I cannot recall that far back.
Something to do with getting older.
I meant to put a ? at the end of that sentence:
Hmmmm so it was that way since the engine overhaul?
All you can do is to check it out when you put it back together again.
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (SOLD)
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car - Sold)
'06 Ssanyong Musso Crew Cab 2WD Ute (OM662 diesel and Auto Transmission)

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 18 Oct, 2018 7:06 pm

It looks like that may have been it, the lumpy idle is better, but not as good as the red 300d. So next is the engine mounts.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 7:56 pm

well, yet to complete the engine mount change as the sun disappeared on me this evening.

but here's what i've got so far.

taking the bolts out, these ones were from under the turbocharger side/ drivers side, not a good sign...
44310956_1896759897081626_5089121755646132224_n.jpg
and the mount itself
44313060_1752884318172155_4804234423123836928_n.jpg
the left side/fuel side wasn't that much better either, however, when compared to the new mounts, wow did one of them get compressed over time...
44234921_249060025766397_7414169595159773184_n.jpg

now in the midst of putting the new mounts in after cleaning the areas and giving the shields a splash of paint to make it easier to see when oil starts to drip in the future.

44250846_249730182378239_3690641487369863168_n.jpg

and after
44273282_248476449149325_6366446326556655616_n.jpg
and now i've run out of sunlight.

so until next time. :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Sun 21 Oct, 2018 5:44 pm

https://youtu.be/nWrJDjCFm9U



after all the following, the engine has lost 99% of it's rough idle, yet to confirm 100% as i'd need to take it for a drive :P


1. fuel injector delivery valves.
2. fuel injectors nozzles.
3. engine mounts.
4. valve adjustment.
5. rocker arm correction.

Just need to find the source of this weird tapping noise, then we're all set to reassemble everything and work on less important things like the sunroof cable ect:

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Fri 02 Nov, 2018 6:37 pm

Mounted the new radiators overflow container
20181031_170345.jpg

The mechanics stethoscope came in the mail today.

listening to different places, it seems i was right in there being a bit of an odd noise.

I think i need to adjust the valves on cylinders 4 and 5 again.




Sorry i forgot to grab a picture before i started clearing the leaved and junk out of the drainage section under the bonnet hinges.
this is partially cleaned...
20181031_150549.jpg

at the end, you can see where the metal has rusted through. I'll be fixing that up asap.
20181031_150908.jpg
Made this quick video to help others out as well who are new to w123's or chasing water....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7IjUAPqHW4



So...

getting things together

fibreglass, sacrificial paint brushes, scissors, prep stuff
20181102_154730.jpg
using the technique from this video
https://youtu.be/0UKPNaBAKFs



so sanding, wire brushing, and clearing out with 90 psi from the compressor


getting it started, sorry but i have no progress photos as anything this paint touches, i'll never get it off, so wearing old car-work clothes, along with eye protection and nitrile gloves i got to it.

20181102_155913.jpg
and afterwards, 5 layers of fibreglass across the whole area, smoothed out nicely. It will harden over the next 24 hours, leaving it for 48 and then will paint it.

20181102_163905.jpg

This job is a pain due to the lack of access and room.

However, looking on the other side...


The battery tray looks quite good
20181031_151931 - Copy.jpg

and underneath it...

lots of random debris, but no rust :D
20181031_152113 - Copy.jpg
and inside the hinge area...

NO RUST !!! :D so, one good side, one bad side. But i decided to do some preventative stuff and decided to clean and fibreglass coat it any ways.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Mon 05 Nov, 2018 12:22 am

So, 48 hours and the miracle paint and fibreglass has cured nicely time to paint...


I painted it red to make sure i cover everything and can see it...
20181104_152424.jpg
and then painted over it black again. This way it has 2 coats of paint over the miracle paint + 5 layers of fibreglass.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

tsharkey
C 111
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 9:32 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Melbourne, Vic

Re: Coupe to road

Post by tsharkey » Mon 05 Nov, 2018 2:17 pm

For a Vic roadworthy I was once knocked back because of the rust you described. The tester said unless I use metal to repair (ie: Cut it out and weld new sections in place), he would not pass me. Claims fiberglass no longer allowed to repair ANY rust. A pretty hard job given the space confines. I repaired similar to how you described and took it to another assessor who passed the car without question. Lesson learnt was to go after all rust before inspection, otherwise, to satisfy the requirements, there will be expensive repairs.

Great that you have stopped the internal leaking.
W123 1981 300TD - Family Kid mover
W202 1998 C250D Factory OM605A Turbo - Partner's daily driver
W123 1982 300CD Retro fitted OM617A Turbo - Mine
W123 1984 300TD English 5 Speed Manual
W123 1982 300TD Factory OM617A Turbo (Hans) - Project
W123 1982 300D - OM617 NA (Hektor) - Son's
W123 1985 230TE - Brother's
W123 1985 300D - Sister in Law's
1962 S-Series Valiant (Tho Daimler & Chrysler divorced, still part of the extended family)

Past benzes
W114 1969 250CE - PO put in an M110 transplant and nearly sent me around the bend
W123 1981 300TD - "Matilda" - RIP hit front side & rear but left my brother + niece A-OK

Current Projects
Coupe restoration, Turbo Wagon freshen up

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 08 Nov, 2018 5:38 am

Cheers for the reply :)

wow, pretty crazy about the guy not passing it, was it the same as mine, a small hole smaller than a 5 cent piece in a spot that was impossible to get to without risking damaging other body panels.

I have a guy that has done my cars before for roadworthy checks, he knows i'm not made of money, but i put in a lot of time and elbow grease to do things well and won't fail me because of something silly like that.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Sat 10 Nov, 2018 11:27 pm

recap > Car has weird noise on cylinder 4/5

opened it all up and took off the rockers ect:

And i noticed this...

it 's been covered in oil and there since i got the car :O hiding away making a weird ticking noise.
20181015_141228 - Copy.jpg
glad it's out now and noise if gone.


However, my glow plug relay has gone :'( Cheers tony for the chat today and pointing me in the direction.

Cracked it open to see if it's an easy fix
20181110_164230.jpg
resoldered each connection with leaded solder.
20181110_180718.jpg
still no go, so looks like i'll start testing individual components on the PCB

likely the capacitors or the IC is to blame and will need replacing, but we'll see.
20181110_180701.jpg
Cheers TSharkey for the chat :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Tony From West Oz
OZBENZ moderator
Posts: 3241
Joined: Mon 20 Jun, 2005 9:04 pm
Model you own: w202
Location: Bedfordale WA

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Tony From West Oz » Sun 11 Nov, 2018 12:07 am

The buzzing noise from the GP Relay was the relay pulsing.
When the relay is open there is enough voltage to pull the armature in.
With the relay closed, 12V goes to the GPs, but the current causes the voltage to drop, causing the relay to open. The voltage rises again . . . . . causing the buzzing sound.
This could be due to a high resistance on the strip fuse (>0.5 ohm could cause this issue).
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (SOLD)
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car - Sold)
'06 Ssanyong Musso Crew Cab 2WD Ute (OM662 diesel and Auto Transmission)

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Sun 11 Nov, 2018 12:35 am

Tony From West Oz wrote:
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 12:07 am
The buzzing noise from the GP Relay was the relay pulsing.
When the relay is open there is enough voltage to pull the armature in.
With the relay closed, 12V goes to the GPs, but the current causes the voltage to drop, causing the relay to open. The voltage rises again . . . . . causing the buzzing sound.
This could be due to a high resistance on the strip fuse (>0.5 ohm could cause this issue).
Cheers.

I'll get myself another multimeter to test.

I took the fuse strip off and it was pristine, not a hint of corossion.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Sun 11 Nov, 2018 7:59 pm

for the 80 amp fuse / strip inside of the glow plug relay box it's reading 0.3 Ohms. It fluctuates between 0.1 and 0.3 a little, but it's a cheap multimeter

Tomorrow I'll just bridge the gap with a small nail or something, and if there's no issue with glow plug circuit, then i know it's the fuse and get a replacement

Looking nice, but still much more to do
20181111_174023.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Tony From West Oz
OZBENZ moderator
Posts: 3241
Joined: Mon 20 Jun, 2005 9:04 pm
Model you own: w202
Location: Bedfordale WA

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Tony From West Oz » Tue 13 Nov, 2018 12:18 am

The nail may be a bit resistive. Bridge the gap with a number of strands of copper wire so the resistance is low.
Check voltage across the fuse when GPs are on. (even if the relay is pulsing, it will show a couple of volts - pulsing if you have an analog meter)
Regards,
Tony
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (SOLD)
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car - Sold)
'06 Ssanyong Musso Crew Cab 2WD Ute (OM662 diesel and Auto Transmission)

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Wed 14 Nov, 2018 4:54 am

Well, I've found the issue with the glow plug relay.

The wire that's connecting to the battery as the power source was broken inside within the sheath.
20181113_143651.jpg
So, i stripped it, split the strands into 2 bunches, looped it through and around the connector, twisted them together at the other and and then soldered it, finally to finish it off with some insulation.
20181113_145345.jpg
Sadly though, it seems 2nd gear synchro is gone in my transmission :'( cries. I can change from 1st to 2nd @ 10-15km/h without issue, but any faster and just nope... Even with being very slow and smoothe about it.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

tsharkey
C 111
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 9:32 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Melbourne, Vic

Re: Coupe to road

Post by tsharkey » Wed 14 Nov, 2018 7:32 pm

mathuisella wrote:
Wed 14 Nov, 2018 4:54 am
Sadly though, it seems 2nd gear synchro is gone in my transmission :'( cries. I can change from 1st to 2nd @ 10-15km/h without issue, but any faster and just nope... Even with being very slow and smoothe about it.
Given your skills, imagine you could pull the box out and put in the required synchro - this thread has some discussion on it from a while back.

viewtopic.php?t=9040
W123 1981 300TD - Family Kid mover
W202 1998 C250D Factory OM605A Turbo - Partner's daily driver
W123 1982 300CD Retro fitted OM617A Turbo - Mine
W123 1984 300TD English 5 Speed Manual
W123 1982 300TD Factory OM617A Turbo (Hans) - Project
W123 1982 300D - OM617 NA (Hektor) - Son's
W123 1985 230TE - Brother's
W123 1985 300D - Sister in Law's
1962 S-Series Valiant (Tho Daimler & Chrysler divorced, still part of the extended family)

Past benzes
W114 1969 250CE - PO put in an M110 transplant and nearly sent me around the bend
W123 1981 300TD - "Matilda" - RIP hit front side & rear but left my brother + niece A-OK

Current Projects
Coupe restoration, Turbo Wagon freshen up

CraigB
OZBENZ Admin
Posts: 5116
Joined: Thu 23 Jun, 2005 1:18 pm
Model you own: I own multiple different models
Location: Hawthorndene (Adelaide)

Re: Coupe to road

Post by CraigB » Wed 14 Nov, 2018 9:16 pm

Just a suggestion - have you changed the oil in the 'box and what grade did you use? Before i went pulling a box I reckon I would try maybe some different oil and/or additives. I think those synchros are like a cone that is relying on friction to spin the gear up to speed so it then meshes. Obviously you don't want to compromise on lubrication but something thinner might help that synchro make contact. Its so long ago now but with my Alfa there was a very clever engineer in the club, who also raced, and he recommended a modern thinner oil - a lot of modern manual 'boxes just run trans fluid. Anyway, I'm not making any recommendations and you would want to check out those in the know - maybe tech advisors from a company like Penrite.

Also I am assuming it crunches if you try to change down 3 to 2 also? There is double declutching of course - my Amilcar doesn't have any synchros and i can drive it without crunching.
Craig Baulderstone
Lurch
280s's
280SE3.5
280SL
350SL
500SEC's
560SEL's

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 12:00 am

Thank you Mr TSharkey and CraigB

I used this ATF Dex 3, although i may have over filled it :/

https://www.castrol.com/en_au/australia ... x-iii.html

I'll give double clutching a go.

Also, opening up a gearbox is quite dawnting to me haha.

CraigB
OZBENZ Admin
Posts: 5116
Joined: Thu 23 Jun, 2005 1:18 pm
Model you own: I own multiple different models
Location: Hawthorndene (Adelaide)

Re: Coupe to road

Post by CraigB » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 7:37 pm

Might just be fear of the unknown - pretty simple inside a gearbox. Harder part is knowing how far to go in replacing expensive parts - haven't done one but believe parts are expensive.
Craig Baulderstone
Lurch
280s's
280SE3.5
280SL
350SL
500SEC's
560SEL's

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 11:11 pm

CraigB wrote:
Thu 15 Nov, 2018 7:37 pm
Might just be fear of the unknown - pretty simple inside a gearbox. Harder part is knowing how far to go in replacing expensive parts - haven't done one but believe parts are expensive.
when i had the 5 speed, the stealership quoted me $200 per gear. And on another thread ive seen it was $60 CAD per synchro. I won't know the state of things until i open it up, but if it's only 2nd gar, i'm hoping that it's just 2nd gear synchro, but may end up replacing 2nd gear as well at the same time so both parts are "new" and get balanced wear upon them

link to thread
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/die ... -pics.html

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 9:51 pm

So, the car has passed roadworthy and is now registered and on the road

Still a weird issue with the gearbox, but that i can sort over time.

if i change gears at 10-15km/h i can get it into 2nd smoothly without issue, but the aim is to have it working properly...

Maiden voyage tonight.

The om617 turbo with manual transmission is definately something special :D Have to watch it now as the torque is everywhere throughout the rev range and very easy to go a little too quick haha.

Induction noise whistle haha.

User avatar
Tony From West Oz
OZBENZ moderator
Posts: 3241
Joined: Mon 20 Jun, 2005 9:04 pm
Model you own: w202
Location: Bedfordale WA

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Tony From West Oz » Tue 20 Nov, 2018 12:24 am

Yes, easy to get over the speed limit with that combination. And that is with an IP that has not been cranked up at all. IF you want more power with no parts replacement, just wind up the max fuel adjustment until you start to get smoke and then back it off a bit.
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (SOLD)
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car - Sold)
'06 Ssanyong Musso Crew Cab 2WD Ute (OM662 diesel and Auto Transmission)

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Wed 21 Nov, 2018 12:17 pm

So, i have a new clutch master cylinder in hand.

took a closer look at the system and saw it has a small leak near where the push rod goes in and out of it.

My local Mercedes stealership had one on hand, it was ordered for someone else who never picked it up. Nowhere other branch had one in the country :O what luck

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Wed 21 Nov, 2018 7:23 pm

Hmm, clutch master change and still having the same issue, it's like the clutch isn't disengaging far enough.

Slave isn't leaking, hmm. well not to the outside...

User avatar
Bartman4800
300 SLR
Posts: 1989
Joined: Fri 10 Oct, 2008 12:10 am
Model you own: w111
Location: Perth WA

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Bartman4800 » Wed 21 Nov, 2018 8:17 pm

Are you sure you got the adjustment screw on the slave adjusted correctly?

You can eliminate your clearance there, should not be more than 1-2 mm.


Regards, Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 12:13 am

Bartman4800 wrote:
Wed 21 Nov, 2018 8:17 pm
Are you sure you got the adjustment screw on the slave adjusted correctly?

You can eliminate your clearance there, should not be more than 1-2 mm.


Regards, Bart
didn't see any adjustment screw on the slave cylinder. May i ask where abouts it is ?

Here's the box with original slave cylinder on it.
53652.jpeg
but it seemed to be leaking...
ay6b5.jpeg
So i swapped it for one i had in my parts box just by chance.

the rods looked to be exactly the same length ( i know in the picture, one of them is leaning on the ground and one is straight out, but i will confirm tomorrow that they are equal length again :)
oldandnewslave cylinders.jpeg


also an update with pictures, sorry i've been a bit slack with the pictures of late.


Sorry it's been a bit, lots of work done.

So, if your oil filler cap's rubber seal has hardened over time... And you can't find a new replacement

Use the rubber seal from a fuel tank cap.


Old hard cracked non sealing
20181120_161622.jpg
20181120_161842.jpg
and new one seals fantastic



Also, car's still not shifting right, so i took a closer look at the clutch system, my master cylinder was leaking.


This evening i found out that there are more than one rod for the master cylinder
MC rods.jpg

here i am draining the power steering res, to change the filter
20181113_153219.jpg
and new filter in
20181113_154425.jpg

a large glass syringe has been a really good investment.

and a nice picture
20181121_195112.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 3:04 am

So, struggling to sleep, i went down and gave the original slave cylinder a clean.

20181122_015056.jpg
20181122_015122.jpg

20181122_015128.jpg
and also took a look down the cylinder of it and it's as clean as a whistle, sorry with the gloves on and pressing it down, i couldn't really get a good photo.

So maybe the sludge buildup was just that sludge from 40 years of being there.

Going to give it a shot and if it work, great, if it works but leaks, hopefully i can get another, hopefully someone here can identify what to get based upon the markings ?



also for reference
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 3:05 am

also for reference
20181122_015207.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 3:37 pm

So, i changed back to the original slave cylinder just for the hell of it.

Still the same issue.

3rd and 4th engage okay 90% of the time, but 1st and second are a no go, even double clutching :'(

to go from 1st to 2nd i have to be at 10km/h and shift it perfectly with clutch to the floor.


recap


All parts from the 1 doner car

Vin number
vin for manual car.jpg
from the doner car

flywheel
clutch
clutch pressure plate
throw out bearing
clutch fork
4 speed transmission
linkages
shifter
pedal assembly
master + slave cylinder
hydraulic/clutch fluid lines
purshrod for clutch master cylinder

all put into 1 car.



Once assembled
1st/2nd gear want to grind

Slave cylinder seemed to be leaking, changed it

still wants to grind

master cylinder seemed to be leaking, changed it

still wants to grind


every time, i rebleed the system, even tried the 2 man method which has never failed me to get it bled.

perhaps i need to try a longer push rod on the master cylinder ?
going by this...
https://mercedessource.com/store/123-24 ... r-cylinder

" It just so happens that the cylinder itself is the same for all models, but that the length of the rod was what was changed."
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 3:58 pm

https://youtu.be/gcOqVpDy-2g

not sure if the souds of the gearbox wanting to grind come through ( i dopn't want to just smash it into gear and kill the synchro/gears ) but you can feel it 100% every time when it's not a perfect mesh of teeth.

User avatar
Bartman4800
300 SLR
Posts: 1989
Joined: Fri 10 Oct, 2008 12:10 am
Model you own: w111
Location: Perth WA

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Bartman4800 » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 4:22 pm

I sure looks like it is not disengaged properly when you shift in any gear.

Is it possible your throw-out bearing is lower than before?
Something in the geometry is wrong.
Can you adjust the hinge point of the clutch fork?

Sorry I led you astray, the finnies have an adjustable rod.

Can you pack something between rod and slave piston to see if that gives you any relief?
I don't think it is a bleeding issue, the piston goes all the way back inside the cylinder when pedal is released.
That is just physics, because on released pedal you have an open connection with the reservoir.

Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

User avatar
Lance
Adenauer
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu 06 Mar, 2014 9:33 pm
Model you own: w114
Location: Altona Meadows, Melbourne

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Lance » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 5:51 pm

Hinge for W114 clutch pedal is an eccentric bolt that gives you a bit of adjustment. Worth checking if the W123 has the same.
Regards,
Lance Smart

W114 280E 5 speed manual
W123 280E

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 7:37 pm

Lance wrote:
Thu 22 Nov, 2018 5:51 pm
Hinge for W114 clutch pedal is an eccentric bolt that gives you a bit of adjustment. Worth checking if the W123 has the same.
are you talking about this ?
20181122_133215.jpg

If so, it only gives about 1mm of adjustment and well, the clutch isn't disengaging even with foot to the floor, so 1mm wouldn't make a difference.

Also the fact that i cannot get a tool up into that location to adjust it, i could have to undo the master cylinder for every adjustment. I did however try it and no luck.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 7:38 pm

Bartman4800 wrote:
Thu 22 Nov, 2018 4:22 pm
I sure looks like it is not disengaged properly when you shift in any gear.

Is it possible your throw-out bearing is lower than before?
Something in the geometry is wrong.
Can you adjust the hinge point of the clutch fork?

Sorry I led you astray, the finnies have an adjustable rod.

Can you pack something between rod and slave piston to see if that gives you any relief?
I don't think it is a bleeding issue, the piston goes all the way back inside the cylinder when pedal is released.
That is just physics, because on released pedal you have an open connection with the reservoir.

Bart

Not sure about the throw out bearing. I'm just re using the one that came from the doner vehicle. Same with the clutch fork.


It's not really doable to pack something in there, but i will be cutting and welding to make it 6mm longer to make it equal to the other standard pushrod size.

User avatar
Bartman4800
300 SLR
Posts: 1989
Joined: Fri 10 Oct, 2008 12:10 am
Model you own: w111
Location: Perth WA

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Bartman4800 » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 7:56 pm

Cut the rod in half

If the rod is a metric size (8 mm?), then maybe cut thread on one side. Weld a tall nut on the other side.

Now it's an adjustable rod :dance:

Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

User avatar
Lance
Adenauer
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu 06 Mar, 2014 9:33 pm
Model you own: w114
Location: Altona Meadows, Melbourne

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Lance » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 8:02 pm

Yes, that is what I mean, no there is not a lot of adjustment but it makes a difference and you are chasing every bit of movement you can get. If you have wear in any of the joints then you will have problems. By the way, mine starts taking up just off the floor, there is not much play.
Regards,
Lance Smart

W114 280E 5 speed manual
W123 280E

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 8:18 pm

20180721_141907 - Copy.jpg

this is a picture i have where you can see the knob t hing where the clutch fork goes onto.

is that what you mean by the pivot point ?

I'm not sure if it is adjustable.



in regards to making an adjustable pushrod, sadly the space it occupies, it's not possible :'( I need to cut + weld to length


edit :

adding in this picture, it seems this may be a lock nit down here, so the point where the clutch fork attaches may be able to be adjusted. Would this help ?

pivot.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Thu 22 Nov, 2018 9:38 pm

Sad news, took it out to a friend who does a lot of drifting and all that sort of stuff.

He took a first hand look/drive/test and says it's the syncros for 1st and 2nd gear. :'(

User avatar
Bartman4800
300 SLR
Posts: 1989
Joined: Fri 10 Oct, 2008 12:10 am
Model you own: w111
Location: Perth WA

Re: Coupe to road

Post by Bartman4800 » Fri 23 Nov, 2018 6:05 pm

I call BS. You do not need a synchro for first gear. But it helps if you select 1st quickly after you press the clutch.

If the clutch does not come free, the gearbox keeps spinning hence you cannot shift without crunching.

Yes, your synchro's are not pristine, but your clutch is certainly not working right.

I have seen this before where the pressure plate came undone, is it possible there is something wrong there?


Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
2002 Mitsubishi Rosa Bus (converting it to a motor home)

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Fri 23 Nov, 2018 10:13 pm

Bartman4800 wrote:
Fri 23 Nov, 2018 6:05 pm
I call BS. You do not need a synchro for first gear. But it helps if you select 1st quickly after you press the clutch.

If the clutch does not come free, the gearbox keeps spinning hence you cannot shift without crunching.

Yes, your synchro's are not pristine, but your clutch is certainly not working right.

I have seen this before where the pressure plate came undone, is it possible there is something wrong there?


Bart

I don't want to drop the gearbox haha. it's a pain to get back in.

I guess it's the only way to find out though.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Sun 25 Nov, 2018 1:06 am

The journey has been stressful, a lot more so lately with the gearbox.

Any ways, here's a couple of pictures to lighten it up a bit :)
46775495_203525910557844_4418975001974145024_n(1) - Copy.jpg
46759988_1920134111396898_9039725621894184960_n - Copy.jpg
46519880_192275321700890_4787657494333751296_n(1) - Copy.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

CraigB
OZBENZ Admin
Posts: 5116
Joined: Thu 23 Jun, 2005 1:18 pm
Model you own: I own multiple different models
Location: Hawthorndene (Adelaide)

Re: Coupe to road

Post by CraigB » Sun 25 Nov, 2018 10:59 am

I don't want to drop the gearbox haha. it's a pain to get back in.
That's why if it was me I would go with the earlier suggestion first of calling someone like Penrite tech dept and ask if they have any opinions on what will work best given the issue and also additive use - could ring someone like Nulon. If it doesn't work you haven't lost much. I just remember with my Alfa (notorious for synchro issues with high revving motors etc) and this engineer from weapons research/Alfa expert who talked about effects of different fluids etc. ..... not saying you won't still have to pull the box but for me it would be worth a try.

And also clutch comments, if that is not freeing properly, even a bit of drag on the clutch, then you won't get a clean change even in a non-synchro / double declutch situation, so I would want to be sure before i went to the trouble of removing a box. From fully depressed you want a bit of clearance before you start feeling any degree of takeup.
Craig Baulderstone
Lurch
280s's
280SE3.5
280SL
350SL
500SEC's
560SEL's

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Sun 25 Nov, 2018 12:23 pm

I'm feeling pressure from the clutch about half way down the travel of the clutch pedal.


someone said earlier something doesn't feel right in regards to the geometry ?


i did take the levers off of the side of the gearbox to clean it all up.

perhaps i put them back incorrectly and have the linkages mixed up between 2 of them as 3/4th gear is good, but 1/2nd and reverse aren't...

This is the only picture i have of the transmission with the linkages on with the rods and their positions.

I'll be taking taking things apart and putting them together according to this picture today :)
607 - Copy.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

mathuisella
560 SEL
Posts: 597
Joined: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 6:03 am
Model you own: w123
Location: Brisbane, North side.

Re: Coupe to road

Post by mathuisella » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 12:26 am

Looks like i put them on correctly, so yeah.

I think it's time to drop the gearbox.

Post Reply

Return to “W123”