Arguments for/against water intercooler for turbodiesels

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kiqnkf
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Arguments for/against water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by kiqnkf » Sat 31 Dec, 2016 4:56 pm

Has the thing got an intercooler?
Last edited by kiqnkf on Thu 05 Jan, 2017 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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3DB
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water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by 3DB » Tue 03 Jan, 2017 2:42 pm

No intercooler yet. Although I cobbled together a water-to-air for my Rodeo. I got the intercooler heat exchanger itself from eBay for about $100, got the little radiator from an early Subaru that had WTA intercooler and a use a little 12V waterproof garden pump that was also about $14 from eBay to circulate the glycol coolant. Still going strong 18 months later. You can really feel the difference when the pump is switched on. After a run at full boost you can't touch the intercooler if the pump hasn't been running - I would say it gets to in excess of 60C. Turn the pump on and flog it as hard as you like and it doesn't get much above ambient. If I even sell the Rodeo, I will take the intercooler off it and put it on the Merc.

As far as air-to-air vs water-to-air goes, I think there are advantages to both. Air-to-air is much simpler, but requires a lot more space. Due to the higher specific heat capacity of water, you can get away with a lot less surface area on the heat exchanger which makes the whole WTA system smaller. I think an ATA with an external water spray to take advantage of latent heat of vaporisation would work just as well.

As far as using methanol over ethanol - my methanol costs about $1.35 - $1.50/L from the local race fuel supplier. I buy it anyway to make biodiesel, so it is convenient to source and use. I have also tried a few tanks of 100% water and I don't know whether the difference in performance is even noticeable, so I may not bother with the methanol anymore.
Last edited by Tony From West Oz on Wed 04 Jan, 2017 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: New thread: slpit from Water - methanol injection for turbodiesels
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water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by kiqnkf » Tue 03 Jan, 2017 11:07 pm

I agree with the plain water thing too....
Last edited by kiqnkf on Thu 05 Jan, 2017 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Tony From West Oz
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water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by Tony From West Oz » Wed 04 Jan, 2017 12:02 am

kiqnkf wrote:Has the thing got an intercooler?

If not, do that for sure. Water to air is absolutely the best way to go. I was one of those " aww... water to air is ok, but air to air is better because.... blah blah," but after studying water to air systems, have concluded that I was a no-nothing clown, who had no right to even consider entering the "air to air" team. Anyone that tells you to go air-to-air over water to air should be ignored.

Most people don't understand diesel intercooling requirements.... They think it's like a petrol powered car.... They're WAY wrong...

SNIP.
If the air-water intercooler is so good, why are no factory turbodiesel vehicles using them?
Here is the reason:
The air-water inter-coolers are small and they work fantastically for petrol powered engines due to the fact that the boost comes on much less often than on turbodiesel engines. Turbodiesel engines are usually on boost from 1500RPM up, ie, they are permanently on boost when the engine is under load.
For an air-water intercooler you then need a water-air heat exchanger to remove the heat from the water. This is easy if the intercooler is not working hard like for petrol engines, but with the boost on virtually all of the time in a turbodiesel, you need to remove a lot of heat continuously from the induction air, and the air-water intercooler does that well, but the heat then needs to be removed from the water, so a large water-air heat exchanger and water circulation pump must be provided. This then becomes an air-water-air system with significant additional costs and greater inefficiencies.

Manufacturers have found that the air-air intercooler does the job much better than the air-water-air configuration. This is why no production turbodiesel vehicles use air-water-air intercoolers!
Last edited by Tony From West Oz on Wed 04 Jan, 2017 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: New thread: slpit from Water - methanol injection for turbodiesels
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (SOLD)
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car - Sold)
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water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by kiqnkf » Wed 04 Jan, 2017 12:09 am

Tony, you are completely right. Water to air intercoolers are all small. You also don't need a heat exchanger to get rid of heat from an air-to-air core.
Last edited by kiqnkf on Mon 09 Jan, 2017 12:19 am, edited 4 times in total.

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water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by Honey500 » Wed 04 Jan, 2017 2:47 pm

While I have no particular experience with Diesels and your information may well be correct I find your hot metal example perplexing. Isn't any exchange of heat designed around / benefitted by airflow? Therefore without any additional varibables it is like betting on a one horse race?
Last edited by Tony From West Oz on Wed 04 Jan, 2017 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: New thread: slpit from Water - methanol injection for turbodiesels
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water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by kiqnkf » Wed 04 Jan, 2017 2:48 pm

Excellent point. I see I am incorrect.
Last edited by kiqnkf on Thu 05 Jan, 2017 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by Tony From West Oz » Wed 04 Jan, 2017 5:55 pm

kiqnkf wrote:Tony, you are almost completely right... but....

IF turbo diesel trucks had wta intercoolers, they would unlikely need adblue, as NOx is created by excessive induction heat.
Please provide references for this statement.
Trucks also have a large frontal area, suiting ata intercoolers, long service intervals, and are more often, far away from service at unusual times, and even small problems with a WTA setup would render the freight undelivered. (coolant leak, pump failure, wiring fault/issue)
Reliability is a big plus with all diesels, why compromise it for a WTA intercooler system.

Ask yourself why the diesel vehicle is watercooled, if what you are saying is correct, trucks should be air cooled too... ;)
I thought that we were discussing wta intercoolers, not vehicle cooling systems. we could go down that path if you like. Water cooled engines are not the same as water cooled intercoolers. The engine cooling system is needed regardless of whether the engine is turbocharged. Air cooled engines are great, light, low maintenance, but noisy and needing higher specification oils. Water cooled engines are quieter and the engine temperature is much more stable than an air cooled engine. This is due to the thermostat, water pump and radiator. This system is also used to cool the transmission fluid. It also provides heat for the vehicle occupants and the fuel heating system on most European and North American diesels. I do not propose shifting all engines back to air cooling.
ata Intercoolers in cars are more "heat sinks", they get hot fast, and reach an equilibrium that I believe, is often far too high. If you had datalogged both ata and wta, in cars, you wouldn't likely have even commented.
Please supply the data you have for this. Or is this another assumption you are presenting as fact?

Also, if you went 4X4'ing, you may have trouble with water/mud/crap messing up the electricals. Also pressure cleaning after mud bashing...

Because diesels have high compression ratios, they are easily damaged by fluids entering the combustion chambers. If a core gets a leak, it could fill a cylinder and damage it on startup.
the same for high compression petrol engines, you are making a strong argument against WTC intercoolers

I'm not familiar with diesels, but I would think that buzzing along at low revs and 3 psi boost, the turbo may well be operating at less than 40% compressor efficiency, putting heat into the intercooler during cruising, making a WTA a terriffic thing, as you can have the pump/fan run as soon as you start it up, after sitting and heat soaking for a short amount of time, so when you zip off, you have ambient cooling temps.
As you say, you know little about diesels.
ATA would also cause the intercooler in front of the radiator to increase the required capacity of the radiator, as much hotter air would be coming through to the radiator.
so where does the heat in the wta intercooler water go to? not in front of the radiator? Where else is there cool air?

Lots of big diesels have multiple stages of turbocharging, greater than 2 x 2.5:1 pressure ratios, with two intercooling stages, you would maybe need 2 seperate (or not) cooling systems. adding to weight and expense.
You have not answered my question as to why there are no production turbodiesels using wta intercoolers!


There you go 3DB, tony is one of those guys I warned you about...

Just quickly Tony, heat up two equal pieces of metal with an oxy, until they are both glowing red hot, dip one in water for 10 seconds, hold one in the air for 10 seconds. Now, pull down your pants, and apply each piece of metal to opposite sides of your worm for 10 seconds.... which side will be burned worse?
LOL
Water simply has FAR better thermal transfer than air. Argue, go on..... this advantage goes for both boosted air temp transfer, then water to air transfer in the heat exchanger.
Water in a wta intercooler is only a heat transfer medium, the heat must be removed from the water and it is transferred to air. By using 2 stages of heat transfer, and pump the WTA intercooler is much less efficient at removing heat.
The advantage of WTA over ATA is:
Size The intercooler in a WTA is much smaller due to the specific heat of water. This makes the post turbo air plumbing short because the wta intercooler easily dits in the engine bay. However it still needs a large heat exchanger (aka radiator) to remove the heat from the water and a circulating pump to make it work.
Have a look at this comparison of WTA and ATA intercoolers
http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20 ... ooler.html

I see your truck ATA intercooler, and I raise you a Bugatti Veyron WTA intercooler...
Since when is a Bugatti Veyron a diesel vehicle??
You are simply uneducated about this, just like I once was...


http://bankspower.com/fridaynightnews/s ... air-cooler

Hey mate, somebody better tell these idiots that they're "doin' it wrong"... This diesel race boat engine (with a giant WTA intercooler) won't work will it? Surely GALE BANKS ENGINEERING tried this engine with an ATA intercooler? There's PLENTY of cold air OFFSHORE.... " but the results were great." .. surely they're lying?
With a water vessel, cooling is easy, the water is pumped from the sea, lake, etc thru the intercooler. In this case the wta is more efficient than an ata intercooler as there is only one heat transfer and the heater water is simply returned to the lake. A bit hard to do in any road vehicle. As this is the only web site you have provided a link to, I presume it is the only one you know of where they are using a wta intercooler in a diesel engine.
Cost is likely a factor. I can get an answer from one of the worlds top diesel engineers if you like, next time I am at a family gathering. I think my mothers birthday is the next one.

HAHA!!! HERE IT IS!!! https://www.carsbase.com/photo/JCB-Dies ... 45465.html

JCB dieselmax, worlds fastest land-speed record holding diesel. My brother just said it had 4 water-to-air intercoolers. He said if I can find a picture, that'll shut you up!! HAHA!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JCB_Dieselmax

So, if the WORLDS FASTEST DIESEL has a water to air 'cooler system, they must be crap ;)
So what, it is not a production motor vehicle. Please show me the reasons why the engineers at every motor vehicle company are total idiots for installing only ata intercoolers.
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (SOLD)
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car - Sold)
'06 Ssanyong Musso Crew Cab 2WD Ute (OM662 diesel and Auto Transmission)

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Re: Arguments for/against water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by Bartman4800 » Wed 04 Jan, 2017 7:58 pm

Well explained Tony.

kiqnkf: Is it not so easy as you state above. The laws of thermodynamics apply to your vehicle just as any. ATA intercoolers are the simplest and most reliable way to cool intake air.
A WTA intercooler can sometimes give you a better efficiency, but at the loss of added complexity, money, weight and chance of failure.

Where you cannot use a ATA intercooler, is for instance in a marine diesel. There is no cool air to cool off your intake air in the engine room of a (large) vessel. There is an abundance of cool seawater...hence the choice for a WTA intercooler.

In a car or truck, cool air is abundant...


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Re: Arguments for/against water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by 3DB » Thu 05 Jan, 2017 5:29 pm

I would like to compare power on a dyno with and without my intercooler pump running. I 'feel' like it makes a difference to power, but it would be nice to be more scientific about it.

There is no question that it dissipates heat very well though - the example above about how hot the intake gets without the pump running.

The key reason I went with WTA was that it was cheaper for me to install and it was much more compact and easy to run 5/8" heater hose than 2.5" aluminium tube + silicon bends. I also have a bullbar and winch, so there wasn't any reasonable space for a front-mount. A top-mount off an Isuzu Mu could be made to work, but still fiddly and would need a hole cut in the bonnet + a scoop.

I'm surprised that it hasn't had any failures in the last 18 months, but I think it is only a matter of time before something causes problems - and this would be one key reason why manufacturers wouldn't want the hassle, not to mention the cost of good-quality components (which I haven't used). I am particularly afraid of a leak between from the water side to the air side on the heat exchanger getting into the cylinders.

Another issue I have is that the little radiator is mounted right next to the AC condenser, so even though I added a thermofan, my AC system struggles on very hot days due to reduced air flow and having added heat dumped on it. I guess it would be similar, if not worse if I had a front-mount ATA.
IMG_5188.JPG
Note cable ties added to stop the silicon hose blowing off at high boost! The cast alloy intake isn't swaged so there is nothing to hold the hose on. The tighter you crank the hose clamp, the more it slips off. Cable ties worked though. Looks rough, but works.
IMG_5191.JPG
IMG_5192.JPG
IMG_5193.JPG
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1976 W123 300D (weekend warrior on biodiesel)
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Re: Arguments for/against water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by kiqnkf » Mon 09 Jan, 2017 1:15 am

Inexpensive, simple, functional.

Nice.
Last edited by kiqnkf on Tue 10 Jan, 2017 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Arguments for/against water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by Bartman4800 » Mon 09 Jan, 2017 12:11 pm

kiqnkf wrote:Jee whizz 3DB....

Warn me again. I don't care. It'll be your loss.

"I'VE BEEN WARNED" apparently..... I'm sure you'll find something to your distaste if you look hard enough. Just keep re-reading it until you do..... There's plenty of other Mercedes forums.
Geez,

We only gave you our thoughts mate. You can do anything you want in your shed.
If you want to piss into your intake manifold and claim you get great horsepower, be our guest...

If we don't agree with you, don't start shouting at us.
If you are not used to an intelligent discussion, keep out of one.

I listen to arguments, not threats.
I am a mechanical Engineer and design stuff that's pretty out there. So I am used to think out of the box.


Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "daily driver"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (SOLD - This car into a money pit)
2011 Kia Sportage "Missus commuter Bus"
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Re: Arguments for/against water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by merc-304 » Mon 09 Jan, 2017 12:59 pm

He'd be one of rossie11s offspring :wave:
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Re: Arguments for/against water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by CraigB » Mon 09 Jan, 2017 9:53 pm

You sound like you may have some knowledge and would be a shame to deprive our members of knowledge because you haven't learnt to communicate in a respectful way. As you point out there are plenty of other Mercedes forums so if you want to respond quickly with where people will be able to find you before you are banned, i feel like i am doing the right thing by the respectful community that has been this forum for getting on 20yrs. To quote the forum owner that very recently banned a member "due to repeated abuse of other members...." you were given the respect of warning and I am bemused why you think you would be warned again.
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Re: Arguments for/against water intercooler for turbodiesels

Post by CraigB » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:52 am

I checked and Kiqnkf has been on and posted and not responded. I am sure you can find him if you are looking for him. Its just the thin edge of the wedge and maybe bad timing that we have had two abusive posters in short succession, and suddenly we are starting to look like most other forums - too much at stake to just let that go. And different if some attempt to pull ones head in, but just a taunt to 'warn me again I don't care'.
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