My New Project

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EllEsssGuy
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Posts: 13
Joined: Fri 04 Nov, 2016 9:03 am
Model you own: w114

My New Project

Post by EllEsssGuy » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 1:25 pm

Hey everybody!
I just picked up my new project car: A 1976 280 US market car in tan with bamboo interior. I have some fun plans for this car, ending with it being used as a "business trip" car, to replace my Buick Park Avenue. I do between 60-80000 miles per year (depending on how well business is going), and I want a comfortable, interesting car to spend all my time in. Enter the 280. I will be swapping in a mild (400-425 ish HP) 5.3 liter vortec truck motor and 4l60e trans, keeping the stock steering, swap the rear end for a 560 sec LSD. I will be upgrading the brakes with a 560 sel front disc/caliper swap and MC, and E320 rear disc/calipers. I will be replacing the carpet and seat pads, seat heaters and inflatable lumbar support, along with a nice stereo setup, MAYBE swap out the A/C parts with a GM setup if I can make it fit correctly, but the rest of the car should be pretty stock. Im going to start once winter hits full force (a few weeks I would think), And I will start up a swap post when I do. Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Sam
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T-Modell
SLS AMG
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Model you own: w107
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Re: My New Project

Post by T-Modell » Sat 10 Dec, 2016 7:12 pm

Welcome here,

and good luck with your project! There's just a typo, "mild" should be replaced with "wild" :laughing6: :laughing6:

So on business trips with a truck motor ... do you use ear-plugs or a proper BOSE noise-cancelling headphones? :laughing5:

Regards
Thomas
---------------------------------------------------------------
1967 W111 250SE Cabriolet, horizon blue
1973 W115 220D 5.0 Pick-Up Argentina, work in progress 2017/18/19
1986 R107 500SL, arctic white, the midlife crisis viagra replacement
2007 R171 SLK350, calcit white
2008 S211 E63T, calcit white, sleeper

EllEsssGuy
A Class
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri 04 Nov, 2016 9:03 am
Model you own: w114

Re: My New Project

Post by EllEsssGuy » Sun 11 Dec, 2016 1:13 am

Thanks Thomas,

My last LS project was a 750 HP at the wheels 1970 Monte Carlo Track car that would pull the front wheels with shocking regularity. Best of 9.22 second @146 MPH 1/4 mile time. So this one is pretty mild, lol. Magnaflow street exhaust planned, so it shouldn't be too bad. That said, who doesn't like a little humble grumble. :whistle:
Thanks,
Sam

EllEsssGuy
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Posts: 13
Joined: Fri 04 Nov, 2016 9:03 am
Model you own: w114

Re: My New Project

Post by EllEsssGuy » Mon 19 Dec, 2016 12:29 pm

I have a question for the group. I was planning on upgrading the brakes on my car with front disks and calipers and MC from a 560 sel. My question involves the front subframe from a late model r107 (560sl). I know the early cars share a subframe with mine. Does this include the later cars with the upgraded brakes? I am already using CLK wheels, so the off set would be good. I see the upgrade to 300 mm rotors and improved front end geometry as huge bonuses, and I have to re-do the subframe mounts anyway. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

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AMG
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Re: My New Project

Post by AMG » Mon 19 Dec, 2016 6:18 pm

If you want 126.039 callipers & rotors, the upgrade is bolt-on. If you want the post 09/85 R107 front end, forget it, because the front end is completely different.

Stick to your 114 subframe, get the gusset kit from the forum sponsor. get a set of 560SEL callipers, rebuild them. a set of new 560sel rotors, bolt them to your w114 hubs.

get 2 brake hoses fabricated, as the calliper will need a banjo bolt and fitting on the calliper end to ensure the brake hose is correctly oriented.

IMO the 560SEL rotors are a much better setup than the later 4 piston SL calliper and rotor.

for starters, the disc is much thicker and can better dissipate heat, the pad area is massive on the 126 brake also.

They are not compatible with the 4 piston front end, the hub, spindle, LCA, UCA are all different in offset and length.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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T-Modell
SLS AMG
Posts: 2777
Joined: Mon 10 Apr, 2006 12:47 am
Model you own: w107
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Re: My New Project

Post by T-Modell » Mon 19 Dec, 2016 6:28 pm

As far as I know, they don't fit straight away. But - seriously - why do you want to upgrade the brakes with a max. speed of 70 miles an hour? The reason, why I need new front discs every 50,000 kms is speed, not cruising ...

Thomas
---------------------------------------------------------------
1967 W111 250SE Cabriolet, horizon blue
1973 W115 220D 5.0 Pick-Up Argentina, work in progress 2017/18/19
1986 R107 500SL, arctic white, the midlife crisis viagra replacement
2007 R171 SLK350, calcit white
2008 S211 E63T, calcit white, sleeper

User avatar
AMG
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Posts: 5788
Joined: Thu 01 Jan, 1970 10:00 am
Model you own: I own multiple different models
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Re: My New Project

Post by AMG » Mon 19 Dec, 2016 7:36 pm

Thomas, are you saying the w114 front hub is shallower in offset?
I did this swap on Lurch, which had the early 107 front brakes (small ones) which I understand to be the same as w108/w114.
If that is the case, then the rotor will bolt on and the calliper will also bolt on. So the only difference would then be the spindle on the w114.

If that is the case, then a front hub/spindle assembly from a 107 will be required, but will bolt into the w114 upper & lower control arm.

The replaceable upper balljoint is also a bonus over the later 09/85 update 107 upper control arm's non-replaceable balljoint.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

User avatar
T-Modell
SLS AMG
Posts: 2777
Joined: Mon 10 Apr, 2006 12:47 am
Model you own: w107
Location: Weinheim / Germany
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Re: My New Project

Post by T-Modell » Mon 19 Dec, 2016 9:04 pm

AMG wrote:Thomas, are you saying the w114 front hub is shallower in offset?....
Joe,
I can't tell you; the only thing I know is, that the Pre-Facelift W107 fits in (pre-1985) ... as we do with the W115 project.

Regards
Thomas
---------------------------------------------------------------
1967 W111 250SE Cabriolet, horizon blue
1973 W115 220D 5.0 Pick-Up Argentina, work in progress 2017/18/19
1986 R107 500SL, arctic white, the midlife crisis viagra replacement
2007 R171 SLK350, calcit white
2008 S211 E63T, calcit white, sleeper

User avatar
AMG
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Posts: 5788
Joined: Thu 01 Jan, 1970 10:00 am
Model you own: I own multiple different models
Region: New South Wales
Location: Dark side of the Moon
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Re: My New Project

Post by AMG » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 12:10 am

Yeah, That is a given.

The difference between the early & late 107 front ends is simply 3 things.

1. Engine mounts are different, and are bolted from underneath through the isolation mount which has a trapezoidal recess for the engine mount arm, into which the bolt locates. Early mounts have raised slots and are simply bolted through the mount arm from the top into the isolation mount, which is located with the socket screws on the crossmember.

2. Subframe on post 09/85 107's has different LCA bush mounts which are reinforced differently. This is due to a recall from failed LCA mounts on the early versions. Mercedes in the USA still honour the recall. Nowhere else does - but I'm betting if you raised a legal issue, the precedent is already set in other global markets, MB would more than likely come to the party - but don't hold your breath.

3. Control arms and spindle/hub changed on post 09/85 vehicles. this was primarily to increase track and change the scrub radius. The LCA uses a modified w124 arm and balljoint, the upper arm is cast steel with a non replaceable balljoint. the Spindle & hub are also completely different. ABS notwithstanding, the offset and mounts for the brake callipers and rotor are different. As a result, the 15-hole Gullideckel wheel 15x7ET25 became the required fitment to clear the calliper and provide the correct offset to increase the scrub radius and maintain the correct increase in track.

Insofar as costs are concerned, the simplest way to go about it all is to obtain the w126039 rotors and callipers, and fit them to the 114 hub & spindle as I mentioned before.

To the best of my knowledge, the 114 shares the same hub & spindle as the early 107, and therefore can cope with the swap.

It would also be pertinent at this point, to install new subframe bushes, new LCA bushes and balljoints, new upper inner bushes and replace the upper balljoint also. Then the work is done and the car will essentially handle like a brand new one (providing the rear bushes are in identical condition)

Doing the rubber suspension components is not the cheapest maintenance task, but it is a lasting and very cost effective one which will ensure the vehicles handling is spot on.

The difference is night and day.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

EllEsssGuy
A Class
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri 04 Nov, 2016 9:03 am
Model you own: w114

Re: My New Project

Post by EllEsssGuy » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 7:14 am

AMG wrote:If you want 126.039 callipers & rotors, the upgrade is bolt-on. If you want the post 09/85 R107 front end, forget it, because the front end is completely different.

Stick to your 114 subframe, get the gusset kit from the forum sponsor. get a set of 560SEL callipers, rebuild them. a set of new 560sel rotors, bolt them to your w114 hubs.

get 2 brake hoses fabricated, as the calliper will need a banjo bolt and fitting on the calliper end to ensure the brake hose is correctly oriented.

IMO the 560SEL rotors are a much better setup than the later 4 piston SL calliper and rotor.

for starters, the disc is much thicker and can better dissipate heat, the pad area is massive on the 126 brake also.

They are not compatible with the 4 piston front end, the hub, spindle, LCA, UCA are all different in offset and length.
Thanks AMG,
I guess I will go with the original plan then. 560 SEL fronts and 320 wagon rears. I'm going to install new sub frame mounts, as mine look a bit crumbly. Do you think I need the gusset kit? The engine I'm using is about 80# lighter, but 3 times the horsepower (mild LSX).

EllEsssGuy
A Class
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri 04 Nov, 2016 9:03 am
Model you own: w114

Re: My New Project

Post by EllEsssGuy » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 7:20 am

T-Modell wrote:As far as I know, they don't fit straight away. But - seriously - why do you want to upgrade the brakes with a max. speed of 70 miles an hour? The reason, why I need new front discs every 50,000 kms is speed, not cruising ...

Thomas
Hi Thomas,

My plans for the car include an LSX swap with a 2.65 LSD rear from a 560 SEC for long highway legs. I'd like to upgrade the brakes for piece of mind.

Thanks,
Sam

User avatar
AMG
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Posts: 5788
Joined: Thu 01 Jan, 1970 10:00 am
Model you own: I own multiple different models
Region: New South Wales
Location: Dark side of the Moon
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Re: My New Project

Post by AMG » Tue 20 Dec, 2016 9:39 am

In the US, a 560SL front end (complete) is cheap.

But you have to weigh up a few things.

1. calliper rebuilds are not cheap
2. You'll be replacing wheel bearings (donor front end is unknown)
3. Upper arm has non-replaceable balljoint and if it's got ANY play, you need to replace the WHOLE arm. $$$ each side.
4. Lower balljoint is same as w124. replaceable.
5. Lower inner bushes will need replacing.
6. 560SL spindles have a hole for the ABS sensor - which will need covering to prevent water ingress, as your w114 won't have ABS.

So, at the end of the day, it's a big cost to have a complete 560SL front end in.

IF (only if) you can obtain a late subframe from a post sept-85 built 380SL or 560SL, then you can use the existing w114 control arms & spindle, and use the 126.039 rotor and callipers.

Upper balljoints and inner bushes for a w114/107 are cheap. A little bit of work to grind out the rivets on the upper balljoint if it hasn't been replaced before, but not difficult. New ones bolt in. and then stake the thread.
The rest of the work is the same - lower inner bushes, lower balljoint, subframe bushes....
Your wheel bearings will probably need replacing anyway.

The 126039 rotor and calliper will easily hold up to the power of an LS.

You WILL need the gussets. or get the 560SL subframe - especially if you're running 350+ horsepower through it.

You'll have other issues to investigate also, like chassis rail strength, transmission tunnel reinforcing to cope with the torque loading and a suitable rear diff - which will need to be from a w116 450SEL as your most likely available source - or a 450SL rear end complete as a donor, providing the trailing arms, anti-dive geometry, diff, halfshafts and brakes... in a neat package.

You'll need a rear diff mount bush, and subframe mounts for the rear of the w114 as a minimum also. Handbrake cable lengths are different, so order 2 new ones.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

EllEsssGuy
A Class
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri 04 Nov, 2016 9:03 am
Model you own: w114

Re: My New Project

Post by EllEsssGuy » Tue 27 Dec, 2016 2:27 am

T-Modell wrote:As far as I know, they don't fit straight away. But - seriously - why do you want to upgrade the brakes with a max. speed of 70 miles an hour? The reason, why I need new front discs every 50,000 kms is speed, not cruising ...

Thomas
When I first picked up the car, the owner said it had been sitting for a year (ish), so it was a bit grimy inside but really clean overall and with a set of brand new tires on it still having the nubs on them. It ran a bit rough, but I filled the near empty tank with super and a bottle of octane booster and set out on the 30 mile trip home. It ran really well (hard to start, but once it gets going,, very smooth). I got it on the highway and it built speed very nicely and soon I was keeping up with traffic, and even passing a few. Cruised at 85 the whole way, but toward the end of the trip, I checked with a speedometer app on my phone to double check the reading as I was passing alot of people at this point. Seems the speedo shows 10 under. I was cruising at 95 (25 over is an arrest-able offense, Va is very strict on speeding)! So,, I slowed down to legal as per the phone speedo and got myself home. Parked the car and went in to get my wife and kids to take a look at the new toy. When we came out a few minutes later, the two right side tires were flat and the rear left was rapidly catching up. I looked closer and found that they were dry rotted and chunks had fallen off the sidewalls. I called the man I bought it from and it turns out it was parked in a barn in 1998 and driven to the location I picked it up from a year ago. On the road a year ago,technically true.18 year old (at least) tires, and a 95 mile per hour blast home. I feel pretty lucky, but I am still very happy with my purchase.

EllEsssGuy
A Class
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri 04 Nov, 2016 9:03 am
Model you own: w114

Re: My New Project

Post by EllEsssGuy » Wed 28 Dec, 2016 12:07 pm

Hey Y'all,
Any ideas on the going rate for a 75000 mile carburated m110/3 speed automatic combo complete from oil pan to air cleaner and all accessories? Runs well shifts well, carb not warped. really a nice running combo. :dontknow:

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