Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

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Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by kimrh » Sun 26 Feb, 2012 7:19 pm

I have a spare Euro Gen2 1987 500 complete engine with the 4 component Tri-y cast iron headers.
As a future project i would like to see whats involved in rebuilding this into either a RUF 560 220kw engine
or possibly going out to 6ltrs by taking the bores out to 100mm (dependant on how complicated this gets with requiring custom 100mm pistons suitable for this engine)

Is boring an Alusil block something a normal engine shop can do or does this require special tooling?? Can it be done in Perth?
Does that mean different head gaskets have to be sourced?

I already have sourced a 560 crank and have a set of RUF cams 24/25 on their way. I already have new MB high comp 10:1 pistons
I have found out the 500 & 560 conrods are the same
The later 500 /560 heads are the same with same valve sizes
Does the 500 block have to be clearanced to allow for the extra arc of a 560 crank/rods?
I have found out the Gen 2 500 & 560 pistons are the same (which surprises me as the 560 crank is virtually a stroked version of a 500 crank with a longer throw)
I already have a the corect EZL etc for a RUF engine.

Is the deck height different in the 2 blocks or not?
Perhaps an explanation of what MB did when they decided to up the power from a 500 engine and created the 560 engine

Would appreciate some technical input/advice
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by Greg in Oz » Sun 26 Feb, 2012 11:00 pm

Off the top of my head I can't answer your questions regarding any dimensional differences between the 5.0 and 5.6 engine blocks, however I can comment on the ability to bore the Alusil block. At the workshop where we had a club dyno day (see viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13239&p=86695 ), I questioned them regarding their ability to deal with MB (and other) Alusil engines. They said they can (and do) bore them and then do all the etching procedure to restore the original cylinder bore finish. They also told me that so long as the MB Alusil engines are well maintained (regular oil changes and always run with a clean air filter) they will go forever. It is only when damage occurs to the Alusil bore (often due to foreign material finding its way between a piston and cylinder wall) that they fail very quickly.

I know this workshop is on the wrong side of the country for you, but I suspect they know what they are doing when it comes to machining work. On the day of that dyno day they had a Ferrari engine sitting in the workshop, a Citroen SM which had just had its engine rebuilt and reinstalled, and the usual collection of muscle cars and race cars that are often seen in this workshop. I can't however make any recommendations as I have never used this workshop apart from some dyno runs on these club days.
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by kimrh » Mon 27 Feb, 2012 1:37 am

Thanks Greg i will check with my local guy (Con who is the owner of Balcatta Engine Reconditioners)
He did mention to me some time ago re has put steel liners in a MB block when a client wanted to go out to bigger capacity. He has owned that business a long time and worked on a lot of engines over the years including very high performance specialist stuff for the track & drags.
Its the etching process of alusil blocks that appears critical and i gather if your bore a cylinder out you lose that layer of silicon nodules??

I still want to find out what mods MB did when going to a 560 crank when the M117968 blocks were fitted to the new 560's when they were launched.
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by Mercmad » Tue 28 Feb, 2012 10:18 am

The 560 Block is higher. If you were sit a 500 next to a 560 you can see the difference immediately . So,fitting a 560 crank and rods into a 500 block is going to see the pistons popping out the top.The heads are the same,the 560 and 380 have the same exit port size but the pocket chamber on the 560 head is a larger.
Heres a video of block etching in the USA.
http://youtu.be/-ek5qv8Nmg0

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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by kimrh » Wed 29 Feb, 2012 3:18 am

Cheers Mercmad i posted that video up earlier on the Alusil block repair thread.

I keep getting conflicting info all the time from various sources and its pissing me off until i can get the correct facts/specs on a 965 engine and a 968 engine

I have been told on hopefully good authority - ".965 and .968 have identical cylinder crankcases"
965 & 968 share the same conrods
The stroke difference between the two cranks is 9.8mm (500 stroke 85mm & 560 94.8mm) so a 560 conrod moves 4.9mm higher up the bore @ TDC
I have measured my 2 sets of 560 10:1 pistons - MB Part # 1170305218 "55" & "56" being repair size 1 & 2 and "compression height" is 44mm (used a ruler so may not be dead accurate but will confirm later)
Both engines use the same heads
Both engines use the same inlet manifolds
other bits like cams /fuel distributor / EZL etc i know about.

Does anyone have a spare 117965 piston lying around that they can measure the compression height (pin height) - centre of pin to top of crown edge.
Either the 500 piston pin height is 4.9mm lower down (compression height 48.9mm) or the deck height of a 560 block is 4.9mm higher than a 500 block

I would like to put this bit of mystery to bed on what changes MB did to produce the 560 117968 engine (block & rotating parts)
Thanks
Last edited by kimrh on Wed 29 Feb, 2012 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by Dr Diesel » Wed 29 Feb, 2012 4:25 am

kimrh wrote:...good authority...
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by kimrh » Wed 29 Feb, 2012 9:14 am

Well Doc if you can please spill the beans - what is the pin height of a 965 piston (if i had time i would pull my spare engine apart but i dont have that spare time at present)
If you think the deck height of the 2 blocks are in fact different please advise
Looking forward to your reply
Also perhaps the MB Spares crew could kindly pitch in here as i am sure they would have various parts lying around in the workshop
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by Dr Diesel » Wed 29 Feb, 2012 5:08 pm

Cross-section of the crankcase:
measurement "A" identical to all M117.96X, "A" = 245,35-245,45 mm.
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by Mercmad » Wed 29 Feb, 2012 6:19 pm

The block on 560 is higher.
500's has a bore of 96.5 and stroke of 80 mm .
560's are 96.5 bore and 94.8 mm stroke .

What you can do is ask CP pistons Australian rep what you can get from them as I understand that high comp pistons are made in the US for them. His name is Alastair and what he doesn't know about Pistons and engines in general isn't worth knowing. Just say Ron B mentioned his name .
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by kimrh » Wed 29 Feb, 2012 11:33 pm

Geez Mercmad your telling me the 560 deck height is higher (measurement "A" in Docs diagram) and Doc is telling me all M11796# blocks are identical
Which one of you is correct!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_M117_engine

I know the crank stoke difference is 9.8mm - 500 85mm & 560 94.8mm - (distance between BDC and TDC of the piston crown movement up & down the bore)
and seeming the 500/560 rods are said to be the same length, then its comes down to a 4.9mm difference in either
1) "crankcase deck height" or
2) piston "compression height" (pin height location)
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by Dr Diesel » Thu 01 Mar, 2012 12:36 am

kimrh wrote:Geez Mercmad your telling me the 560 deck height is higher (measurement "A" in Docs diagram) and Doc is telling me all M11796# blocks are identical
Which one of you is correct!!
My diagram is from original service manual. :whistle:

Also, M117.962/963/964/965/967 and 968 have identical connecting rods.
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by kimrh » Thu 01 Mar, 2012 1:39 am

Thanks Doc - i was hoping the blocks were the same as if not it would have screwed my plans to upgrade the spare 500 engine to a 560
I know i have the correct 560 10:1 pistons to match the 560 crank

Would still like someone to kindly get hold of a 500 piston and post up the pin height measurement to finish off this debate/thread
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by Dr Diesel » Thu 01 Mar, 2012 8:00 am

By my calculations for 5.0, compression height of the pistons is about 48,4 mm.
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by kimrh » Thu 01 Mar, 2012 9:45 am

Thank you Doc you are gradually unravelling the unkown facts for me at last in what changed with the stroked 560 crankshaft introduced
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by John Green » Thu 01 Mar, 2012 9:58 am

Dr Diesel wrote:
kimrh wrote:Geez Mercmad your telling me the 560 deck height is higher (measurement "A" in Docs diagram) and Doc is telling me all M11796# blocks are identical
Which one of you is correct!!
My diagram is from original service manual. :whistle:

Also, M117.962/963/964/965/967 and 968 have identical connecting rods.
Had a look at the factory book for the M117 450 iron block and guess what, almost the same dimention at 244.85mm - 245.00mm, so I would presume they are all the same (ish)

Not only that but the timing chain is exactly the same length (198 links) for a 450, 500 and 560. Likewise are the sprockets, guides, etc (but not the tensioner) so given that they have something to do with the distance between the crank and camshaft I would say that is settled..

But, back to the original question about the extra clearance for the 560 crank, my guess is no, from memory there is quite a bit of room in there. But given that you have the block and the crank, there is only one way to know for sure....
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by Greg in Oz » Thu 01 Mar, 2012 7:10 pm

John Green wrote:
Dr Diesel wrote:
kimrh wrote:Geez Mercmad your telling me the 560 deck height is higher (measurement "A" in Docs diagram) and Doc is telling me all M11796# blocks are identical
Which one of you is correct!!
My diagram is from original service manual. :whistle:

Also, M117.962/963/964/965/967 and 968 have identical connecting rods.
Had a look at the factory book for the M117 450 iron block and guess what, almost the same dimention at 244.85mm - 245.00mm, so I would presume they are all the same (ish)

Not only that but the timing chain is exactly the same length (198 links) for a 450, 500 and 560. Likewise are the sprockets, guides, etc (but not the tensioner) so given that they have something to do with the distance between the crank and camshaft I would say that is settled..

But, back to the original question about the extra clearance for the 560 crank, my guess is no, from memory there is quite a bit of room in there. But given that you have the block and the crank, there is only one way to know for sure....
I had forgotten how the same timing chain and rails are used across all the M117 (450, 500 and 560) engines, just as all the M116 (350, 380 and 420) engines share the same shorter chain and rails and the relevance that has to this discussion. This use of common components confirms that all the M117 engines share one common overall dimension from crankshaft centre to camshaft centres and therefore should all share the same crank to top of deck dimension (even though the stroke differs between the 5.0 and 5.6). Likewise, all the M116 engines would share the same dimensions.

What I had remembered was that for the K-Jet and KE-Jet engines with the air filter box with a tab either side that mounts to the valve cover on each bank, all the M117 engines have these tabs mount directly to each valve cover (via a rubber mount) whereas all the M116 engines have additional brackets between the valve covers and the rubber mounts for the same air filter box. This confirms that all the M117 engines have their valve covers the same distance apart (regardless whether 4.5 or 5.0 or 5.6 litres), and that all the M116 engines have the valve covers the same smaller distance apart (regardless of whether 3.5 or 3.8 or 4.2 litres).

From memory, I have previously posted the attached spreadsheet which I created several years back comparing the bore and stroke of many MB engines from the 1970s to 1990s. Whilst it doesn't help answer questions such as dimensions of gudgeon pin to piston crown or crank centre to top of deck, this chart does show the use of common bore and/or stroke for numerous engines. An update I have also made is to include the early alloy M116 3.8 engine as well as the later version. The early 3.8 shared the bore of the older iron 3.5 whereas the later 3.8 went to a smaller bore with longer stroke (for improved torque characteristic). Note how the M116 4.2 (which replaced the 3.8) shared the bore of the early 3.8 (and 3.5) with the stroke of the late 3.8 to achieve the larger 4.2 litre displacement.

A final point of interest I notice in my chart is that the AMG 6 litre M119 engine ran a 100mm bore. I wonder if these pistons could be used for your 6 litre M117 project? From memory, the M119 engines are also Alusil so the piston and ring materials should be compatible with the M117. The only issue may be any recesses in the piston crowns to suit the 4 valve M119 versus 2 valve M117 and the gudgeon pin to piston crown dimension. Another possible issue could be the cost of AMG specific pistons. Just thinking about the 6 litre AMG M119, wasn't there also a 6 litre AMG version of the 2 valve M117 or was AMG's 6 litre M117 only available with their own special 4 valve heads? Presumably if a 6 litre 2 valve version was available, they would be exactly the pistons you require. I suspect if available they too would be expensive.
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by kimrh » Fri 02 Mar, 2012 9:58 am

Greg the solution to go down the path of a 6ltre 100mm bore on an M117 block is doable as long as you can find a machine shop in Aust with the correct gear to re-do the alusil process after the boring is done (in the states they charge aprox $500 to re-do the process, so who knows what the price would be in Aust)
AS to the 100mm forged pistons - CP pistons in USA have already produced a number of pistons to suit this bore/stroke for an MB alusil engine and charge aprox US$1,200 for a custom set.

Jonathon who owns Blue Ridge MB in USA http://www.blueridgemb.com/ has worked on a number of these M117 blocks taken out to 6ltr and in fact races the exact set up himself on the track (with the 4 valve heads bolted up)
He recommends the CP forged pistons as an aftermarket choice for our blocks whether 5.6litre or 6ltr set up as the pistons are much lighter than the original MB ones allowing the engine to spin up a lot quicker for snappy response (the MB piston pins are heavy)
So question is who in Aust could do the boring/treating process for the block?? to be able to think about going to 6ltr ??
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by John Green » Fri 02 Mar, 2012 1:02 pm

i WOULD LOOK INTO HEAD GASKETS BEFORE DOING ANy (bugger) machine work....
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by kimrh » Sat 03 Mar, 2012 9:54 am

Dont worry about that John -i have got that already covered with my friend in USA
His comment - "I've got 6L gaskets on the shelf.. both 119 and 117. Can't swap the two, head bolt/coolant passage etc configuration is Very different".

Can you pitch in with any machine shop in Australia that can handle the boring & Alusil recoating/etching process that you might know of???
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by John Green » Sat 03 Mar, 2012 11:19 am

Found a few withoiut to much of a search on Google, alloy blocks are not that uncommon these days so I would have thought any good machine shop that has upto date equipment would be able to do it.?

http://www.crankshaftrebuilders.com.au/ ... blocks.htm

http://www.tuning.mbs.id.au/Engine/Hone_apps.htm
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by Greg in Oz » Sat 03 Mar, 2012 1:10 pm

kimrh wrote:...Can you pitch in with any machine shop in Australia that can handle the boring & Alusil recoating/etching process that you might know of???
There isn't any "recoating" process with Alusil. This is where the confusion between different aluminium alloy engine blocks arrises. The names sound similar but the processes are very different.

Those such as Nikasil DO use a coating or plating process to achieve a hard wear surface in the bores.

By contrast, Alusil (and its equivalents) DO NOT use any plating or coating. Alusil is what is known as a hypereutectic alloy. This means that the aluminium is super-saturated with excess silicon such that the excess silicon forms crystals within the alloy. These silicon crystals form the hard wear surface for the bores, but because they are part of the mix used for the alloy they extend throughout the entire casting. When the cylinders are bored oversize, it is just a matter of using the correct etching technique to remove the aluminium near the surface and leave the hard silicon crystals as the hard wear surface for the piston rings to run against.

A search of the web for Alusil (and Nikasil) reveals some good descriptions of the processes.

As John suggests, with so many engines now using the likes of Alusil, it would be surprising to not be able to find a workshop or machine shop in your area that couldn't do the appropriate boring and etching process.
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by AMG » Sat 03 Mar, 2012 1:14 pm

Clearance for a stroked 560 crank (in the sl73amg) in the m119 block is what you call.. tight.

however, the standard block (below) is fine. I wasn't interested in clearances at the time, just wanted to make sure it was clean inside.

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2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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kimrh
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by kimrh » Sat 03 Mar, 2012 2:33 pm

Greg i knew what you were saying with the silicon mix into the alloy during the making/pouring of the blocks/cylinders hence the silicon crystals are suspended within the alloy metal throughout the whole thickness of the cylinder and the etching process just eats the alloy away to a measured degree to expose the crystals which is what the piston rings move up and down against and the very fine micron voids between the crystal heads is what traps the oil lubricant providing excellent wear capabilities hence the Merc engines can last for so long providing the oil is clean and the filtered air is clean - fine dirt particles is what scratches the bores

I have found a local engine builder who can do the work and that is Neil at "Southside Engine Centre" http://www.zapsrat.com.au/southsides/
He only did a late model Alusil Merc engine recently that needed the cylinder walls tidied up and re-etched again using the felt pads and etching compound, so that is good news.
Told me to come down and talk to him about cost.
Exlained how cleanliness was the utmost importance, particularly after the work is completed and the bores have to be washed/cleaned to a very high standard to ensure all the work is not ruined when the engine is assembled and started.
So the option of going out to a 6ltr engine is now not out of reach, it just comes down to cost "as usual" if anyone wants to go past a 500 or 560cc engine but it can be done
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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unavita
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by unavita » Sun 07 Feb, 2016 2:10 am

I really enjoyed reading this. How did this project end?
I may have missed why you want to bore a 5.0 rather than just using the 5.6 block complete? Knowing MB I am certain there are some compatibility issues but an curious as to what your answer might be.

CraigB
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by CraigB » Mon 08 Feb, 2016 11:16 am

Generally speaking any increase in capacity is cheap horsepower. This increase can be in boring or lengthening the stroke and that can change the way the power is delivered eg. shorter stroke, bigger bore tends to rev more to deliver the power. So dropping the longer throw 560 crank in or just using a 560 engine will increase the stroke, i think Kim is just looking at using what he has. But then he is looking at getting even more capacity and balancing up that bore and stroke ratio at the same time. I think this is what AMG did when they produced the DOHC 6.0, capacity was from taking 560 and then boring. Does that make sense?
Craig Baulderstone
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kimrh
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Re: Differences in a M117965 block to M117968 block

Post by kimrh » Mon 08 Feb, 2016 10:15 pm

Gee that was an old thread dug up from 4yrs ago!!
A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then and knowledge gained.
The only difference in a Gen2 M117-965 500 engine is different pin height on the pistons and the 560 stroker crank
And obviously the cams and Ezl (Ignition control module)
My high compression 500 engine even shares the same Fuel Distributor as the 560 high compression 220kw version.

Since then 4yrs ago i have purchased a few 560 Euro 220kw engines complete so no need to muck around turning a spare gen2 500 engine into a 560
However i ended up with new sets of high comp 560 pistons/cams/560 crank/FD etc as spares
I found a local shop here in Perth that can handle boring/etching our Allusil blocks - http://www.southsideengines.com if i wanted to create a bigger capacity engine with some custom forged pistons but wary of boring an M117 block out to 100mm as consider the cylinder walls too thin to dissipate heat and in hindsight would not go any bigger than 98.5mm (from original 96.5mm) = +2mm
AMG on their 5.4litre engine only went to 98.5mm on the 5litre base engine with the 5litre non stoker crank
Going out to 100mm created a run of engine failures due to the cylinder walls being too thin on the base 5.6litre stroked engine with bigger bores to create the 6litre capacity

There were no issues with the bore being 98.5mm, so on a base 5.6litre stroker engine that would take capacity out to something like 5.8litres (haven't done the maths to be exact)
Using custom lightweight forged pistons and much lighter piston pin would result in a sweet engine with less inertia weight of the piston/pin (the stock pins are heavy) so it would rev much easier making it feel more snappy and usable street torque would no doubt increase. But all this would come at cost

Then do you go bigger on the cams than the ECE/RUF cams that idle still nice and smooth - but i would not have solid cams that need too much mucking around as per the AMG 50:1 cams and those big roller cams from Feind Motorsports sound a bit too wild for street.

Going further i looked into a sweet custom set of race prepped ported heads with beehive springs/Ti retainers and ferrea - "competition plus" 6mm valves/guides for increased flow to match the bigger engine capacity and free up some breathing-
560 heads flow 202cfm / AMG ported flow 240cfm / 560 heads with just 6mm valves flow 230cfm without porting / porting and 6mm valves you are talking a big leap in CFM capacity!!!
However with the crash of the Aussie dollar you are talking a touch over US$4k for a set of heads - now convert that to current Aussie and freight cost it gets out of hand.

So custom block work /head work etc to create a very nice naturally aspirated M117 adds up to some serious cash.
I stopped there and ended up buying a race prepped ported heads high comp 560 engine complete that was already converted to custom EFI run by a Haltech 2000 ECU and left it at that to go into my 560 coupe WB conversion project.
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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