180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

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brother benz68
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180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by brother benz68 » Sat 22 Aug, 2015 9:59 pm

Hi everyone,

I have purchased a 1991 180E 5 speed manual for my two boys now that they want to learn to drive. I understand they are fairly rare so I was wondering if anyone knows how many were sold in Australia?

It's a fantastic car and was sold to us at a fantastic price of $850!!!

Any info will be great. Many thanks!

Craig

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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by Ivanerrol » Sun 23 Aug, 2015 12:10 am

Many of the original 180e's came with manual transmission.
It was opted to get the price under the luxury car tax.
Along with steel wheels, manual wind up windows, velour interior, down market audio, many of the first cars were white - no expensive paint job.

I.M.H.O. the 5 speed man was required to get the cars up and moving. The second gear start auto was a bit of a sludge
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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by brother benz68 » Sun 23 Aug, 2015 12:28 am

Ivanerrol wrote:Many of the original 180e's came with manual transmission.
It was opted to get the price under the luxury car tax.
Along with steel wheels, manual wind up windows, velour interior, down market audio, many of the first cars were white - no expensive paint job.

I.M.H.O. the 5 speed man was required to get the cars up and moving. The second gear start auto was a bit of a sludge
Thanks for this Ivanerrol, much appreciate it.

I have read that the 180E is slow but I find the car gets along quite nicely [with the manual anyway]. Does the 1.8 litre from the 180E have any relation to the 1.8 litre from the C180?

Thanks again

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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by CraigB » Sun 23 Aug, 2015 10:19 am

Yep, i think it is all relative. I remember driving a base 180 like that back in the 90's when nearly new, and i thought it was nippy enough and the handling was excellent through the Adelaide Hills test drive - I managed to piss off the salesman selling it (Jarvis Ford) and in turn that pissed me off and confirmed that the deal never happened. But he did follow up with calls many times with statements like ' i just need to shift it, what would sell it to you", so i had the impression that perhaps many were sold as an affordable benz but then people moved them on - perhaps fell in love and moved to a higher spec!? I can't imagine you want your kids in a fire breathing monster anyway. Back then though there seemed to be nearly as many manuals as autos on the nearly new secondhand market, but only in the 180. Once again i guess it is relative depending on numbers in different markets. Over time it will possibly become a lot rarer given i believe that 180E badge was only for the Australian market and being a cheaper and perhaps more abused version and also i have always thought they would be a good base for a motorsport car with a 2.3 bolted up to it, so if a nice original car it could well be quite rare!
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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by brother benz68 » Sun 23 Aug, 2015 10:34 am

CraigB wrote:Yep, i think it is all relative. I remember driving a base 180 like that back in the 90's when nearly new, and i thought it was nippy enough and the handling was excellent through the Adelaide Hills test drive - I managed to piss off the salesman selling it (Jarvis Ford) and in turn that pissed me off and confirmed that the deal never happened. But he did follow up with calls many times with statements like ' i just need to shift it, what would sell it to you", so i had the impression that perhaps many were sold as an affordable benz but then people moved them on - perhaps fell in love and moved to a higher spec!? I can't imagine you want your kids in a fire breathing monster anyway. Back then though there seemed to be nearly as many manuals as autos on the nearly new secondhand market, but only in the 180. Once again i guess it is relative depending on numbers in different markets. Over time it will possibly become a lot rarer given i believe that 180E badge was only for the Australian market and being a cheaper and perhaps more abused version and also i have always thought they would be a good base for a motorsport car with a 2.3 bolted up to it, so if a nice original car it could well be quite rare!
Hi CraigB,
It's funny you should mention the Adelaide Hills as that is where I live and where I do most of the driving, up near Eagle On The Hill. I have also been Googling the internet to see if there are any mods you can do to get a little more power from it as the boys are keen to do Motorkhana at Monarto on a Come And Try day. I am thinking a K&N filter might be the first stop but power gain might be very modest though.
Thanks for this

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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by CraigB » Sun 23 Aug, 2015 2:06 pm

That sounds great doing the motorkhana and I think that is run by MSCA which makes you eligible to do supersprints and hillclimbs - check out MSCASA website. MSCA membership if they choose to go beyond the come and try requires membership of an affiliated club. The Mercedes Benz Motorsport and restorers club based in adelaide is affiliated and cheap membership, not sure if the main Mercedes club still is but thats not expensive either. Neither club is very active in this area but might interest me more to participate again if i knew others were doing stuff. Tremendous grounding of skills though that might just save your life one day when they instinctively maintain control of a car instead of panicking in an emergency. And its good clean fun!

Personally i wouldn't touch anything to do with power. Mercedes are pretty well engineered and not too many shortcuts to producing more power - eg. they don't put a cheap restrictive air cleaner on there so a KandN unlikely to make any noticeable difference on a standard engine. And of course make sure it is tuned, plugs clean etc. Tyres are about the only thing i would think would make a difference in a motokhana in that car and although you are not using the brakes that much, if you can't see a record of when the brake fluid was changed, then just change it, especially if doing sprints. Brake fluid attracts water that then lowers its boiling point. So So many first timers think, my brakes are fine, and then get brakes hot, water in fluid boils and turns to gas, brake pedal goes straight to the floor! Its a good thing to do annually especially if doing any hard driving. And I have found Khumo to be great and cheap R spec tyres - KU36, KU31 etc. not sure on sizes. You wont get great mileage on the road but If you get a spare set of rims they can swap them on and off for an event and legal to drive there with them.

I am just the other side of the 'park' from you so let me know if any questions. And when is the next come and try? Might participate myself because while my boys are only nearly 9 and 11, i think they can start motorkhanas as young as 12? Another fun thing i used to do in my younger years was with the Southern Districts Car Club, Dirt sprints and Lanac Park - i think they have the tailem rally cross set up too now - lots of options but good clean fun where the kids can push the limits and learn car behaviour in a controlled situation.
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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by brother benz68 » Sun 23 Aug, 2015 9:53 pm

CraigB wrote:That sounds great doing the motorkhana and I think that is run by MSCA which makes you eligible to do supersprints and hillclimbs - check out MSCASA website. MSCA membership if they choose to go beyond the come and try requires membership of an affiliated club. The Mercedes Benz Motorsport and restorers club based in adelaide is affiliated and cheap membership, not sure if the main Mercedes club still is but thats not expensive either. Neither club is very active in this area but might interest me more to participate again if i knew others were doing stuff. Tremendous grounding of skills though that might just save your life one day when they instinctively maintain control of a car instead of panicking in an emergency. And its good clean fun!

Personally i wouldn't touch anything to do with power. Mercedes are pretty well engineered and not too many shortcuts to producing more power - eg. they don't put a cheap restrictive air cleaner on there so a KandN unlikely to make any noticeable difference on a standard engine. And of course make sure it is tuned, plugs clean etc. Tyres are about the only thing i would think would make a difference in a motokhana in that car and although you are not using the brakes that much, if you can't see a record of when the brake fluid was changed, then just change it, especially if doing sprints. Brake fluid attracts water that then lowers its boiling point. So So many first timers think, my brakes are fine, and then get brakes hot, water in fluid boils and turns to gas, brake pedal goes straight to the floor! Its a good thing to do annually especially if doing any hard driving. And I have found Khumo to be great and cheap R spec tyres - KU36, KU31 etc. not sure on sizes. You wont get great mileage on the road but If you get a spare set of rims they can swap them on and off for an event and legal to drive there with them.

I am just the other side of the 'park' from you so let me know if any questions. And when is the next come and try? Might participate myself because while my boys are only nearly 9 and 11, i think they can start motorkhanas as young as 12? Another fun thing i used to do in my younger years was with the Southern Districts Car Club, Dirt sprints and Lanac Park - i think they have the tailem rally cross set up too now - lots of options but good clean fun where the kids can push the limits and learn car behaviour in a controlled situation.

Thanks very much for this CraigB, I will look into the clubs further. I looked at the MSCASA website but didn't find any reference so I will contact them directly to find out as this club looks great with their affiliations. The info I got was from the CAMS website: http://www.cams.com.au/media/news/latest-news http://www.cams.com.au/media/news/lates ... motorkhana

This club states there is a Come And Try on 30th August but unfortunately is too soon and won't be able make this one because of prior commitments and the car probably won't be ready in time. We are quite excited about this as my boys are 13 and 15 so hopefully may be able to learn and even have a go as you are quite right about the age being 12. Hopefully we will make the following meet which I cannot see any announcement as yet, but will let you know when I find out if you are interested.

It would be great to see you and perhaps other people with Mercs having a go with this as I have seen a YouTube video of it and looks like great fun.

Thanks also for the advise on the air-cleaner etc, you probably saved me $$$ on this as I was seriously looking at a purchase and great to learn from others. As for the brake service, I can't see when it was last done so I will give it a fluid change along with the clutch system because I reckon it engages too soon as your foot is only about an inch off the floor before it starts to engage.

Thanks again and hope to speak soon.

Craig

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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by Greg in Oz » Sun 23 Aug, 2015 11:02 pm

I don't know how many were sold, however, on the basis of percentage of total numbers sold, the manual 180E would have represented a greater percentage than for every other W201 except for the 16 valve "Cosworth" models. Note however that I was careful to state "180E" rather than "190E 1.8". The reason being that the 180E badge was unique to Australia. They are in reality a 190E 1.8 (even your compliance plate will show 190E 1.8) that was sold without any (or with very few) options and even had some of the standard equipment deleted that was fitted to the 190E 1.8 that was sold in Australia prior to the release of the 180E badge.

The first W201 I owned was a relatively young and low kilometre manual 180E with 5 speed manual transmission. My next W201 (which I still own) is a very much rarer 5 speed manual 190E 2.3 with full Sportline options package. I have been told this was the only Australian delivered one of these. More recently I have purchased a 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth with "dogleg" manual 5 speed. Along the way I have also purchased a 190E 2.3 Sportline with auto transmission parts car and a 190E 2.3 auto as a first car for one of my sons. Yes, I have a preference for a manual transmission in a W201 powered by an M102 four. The manual box transforms the car's performance. I also have a preference for the worthwhile torque advantage of the 2.3 over the 2.0 or 1.8 but having said that, the 1.8 doesn't go too badly with a manual box if you get stuck into it. The auto by comparison is lethargic and even with the 2.3 doesn't offer great performance.

As Craig has already suggested, don't bother with any "performance" mods to your 180E. It really isn't worth it, especially when you consider that the air filter assembly, inlet and exhaust manifolds and entire exhaust system on the 1.8 were the same as that for the 2.3 (only the 2.6 M103 6 cylinder gained in the breathing department). If performance really matters you would be better off looking for a 2.6 or 2.3 but then you would be stuck with auto transmission (and some loss of handling in the case of the 2.6 with its heavier engine) unless you have a very much bigger budget to allow the purchase of a 2.5-16 or 2.3-16 Cosworth. In the braking department a simple upgrade would be the front brakes from a 2.3 or 2.6 as these had vented (rather than solid) rotors. Better still but possibly overkill for a 1.8 would be the larger front brakes from a 16 valve model which were shared with those on the W124 300E. Also be aware that the 180E lacked ABS that was fitted to all the larger engined models.

Even in standard trim a 180E handles well but a slightly wider set of wheels and tyres (such as the 7" x 15" ET44 rims with 205/55 tyres used on the 16v and Sportline models) wouldn't do any harm and if you get really keen a lower and stiffer suspension setup (such as used on the 16v and Sportline) will help with just a little sacrifice in ride quality. Going even further there is the Sportline steering box with its faster ratio or the 16v steering box that is faster still. The Sportline (although strangely not the earlier 16v) also had a slightly smaller steering wheel. As a current owner of a Cosworth, a Sportline and a "regular" 190E, I can say that the Sportline suspension and steering is a lovely compromise between the slightly "hard-edged" Cosworth and the softer standard car.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by CraigB » Mon 24 Aug, 2015 1:53 am

Couldnt help having a look and 25/10 is the next come and try at Monarto - which i also found hidden in the same cams website - why do they make stuff so hard to find? I might go up for a look next Sunday with the kids but timing a bit tight for me too. I have just scored a LSD and billet alloy front hubs for my clubman and might just be enough time by October. Its size is probably good for a 12yo but has a fairly grunty MGB engine with webber that is enough to give me a thrill.... maybe some sort of throttle limitation at first for them! Its hard to find the current organisation set up too, but many years ago the organisation of the monarto events came under MSCA, or at least when i went to committee meetings there was always a Motorkhana rep at them. As you have found though, one beauty of MSCA are that there is a good range of events you can take advantage of with that membership. Also it shows that the mercedes motorsport club (MBMRC) is the only one affiliated currently, which makes sense given past active members are all in the MBMRC now, some like myself in both. I think MBMRC is $35 and MSCA $20, most expensive bit is cams licence at $119. And then individual event fees but none of those are excessive and they do bend over backwards to keep costs down. I am more experienced with sprints, that i think you need to be 14, but the organisers and competitors are a great bunch of people.

MBMRC is having a BBQ at a members garage at Mt. Barker on 18/9 i think it is if you wanted to meet some - can provide more detail if interested. I might do a bit of stirring there and see if I can't get a few along 25/10.

A worn clutch is usually indicated by late take up, so maybe there is an adjustment there?

Greg is a 201 guru and can help a lot more than me. Ive always had a bit of a hankering for a quick 201 mainly for its light weight and handling but not the time or garage space for it to have occurred yet. I always thought i would keep one eye open for a cheap rusty W123 with 2.3 M102 motor to graft into a car just like yours and upgrade brakes and LSD and quick steering if such parts could be found. And noticing Gregs advice, a W124 300E is possibly more likely to be found being wrecked than the bigger engined 201's for big brakes. And if eventually you got to track work at Mallala, notoriously hard on brakes, then if QFM (queensland friction materials) will make any pad if not already on their list, which i would think they would be. But yours is a lot lighter than the W116 and W126 I was using, but comp 3 pads from them made a hell of a difference. Some thoughts for the future maybe!
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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by brother benz68 » Mon 24 Aug, 2015 12:50 pm

Thanks Greg and Craig for this info for my 180E and this has my brain ticking, I will have to be careful about what mods I do as the budget is tight. But here is another thought; how much of an advantage would it be if I lost weight out of the car, such as removing the front and rear seats and installing lightweight slide adjustable racing seats? Could this still be street legal? May have to go through inspection?
I had the stock seats removed over the weekend to clean them and the carpets and there is a fair bit of weight in them. I just had a look at the Autosport website and sport/racing seats can be purchased for around $800 each. Maybe this could be a relatively cheap upgrade if it has benefit, especially as the driver’s seat is tatty with holes and needs replacing anyway. Could this work or am I clutching at straws? This could be an expensive project!

Craig, your Clubman sounds interesting and certainly sounds like you are no stranger to the sport. I am however quite a novice but the kids and I used to be a half owners of a kart that we shared with a friend. We used to race it (not competitively) at Port Gawler which was a heap of fun. My kids would have been the same age as yours at the time and I fabricated a stop to the accelerator pedal to restrict the speed as it was quite fast. Unfortunately the kart was unreliable and our friend moved overseas for a job so we sold it.

Thanks Craig for letting me know about the meet for MBMRC gathering on 18/9, I am keen to join in if I can as it sounds like it would be great. Please PM me with the details if you can. Much appreciate it.

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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by CraigB » Mon 24 Aug, 2015 3:38 pm

In my opinion i reckon that weight saving is poor bang for your buck. $800 could buy you a whole W123 to get the 2.3 l engine out of! I don't know your skills or ability to store and wreck a car, but its not an uncommon engine, just that most were autos. Greg will be able to fill in on this but my understanding is that flywheel was balanced with the crank, so there is a risk if you just bolt the manual flywheel up to an auto engine that it wont be in balance. I have heard more stories where people bolted them up without a problem than having probs, but you could suck it and see and not a bad exercise to swap in an engine and then strip it to be balanced if need be later - particularly if your boys have any mechanical interest. But i am just not sure of the detail and if fuel injection set ups compatible etc. but I imagine it is a fairly straight forward process. And if you or your boys are into electonics then a programmable engine management system like megasquirt can offer a lot of bang for buck and offer road and track set ups. But i should have started by justifying my reasoning behind the effort of swapping the engine - I just used Wikipedia, but your 1.8 is 80kw and a w123 230e is 100kw - 25% up on your power that depending on finding a donor might be all up $1k outlay with some fun labour with the boys....... a lot more bang for buck in my book! The 2.3 is an oversquare 95.5 bore and something like 80 stroke and would imagine would rev every bit as hard as your 1.8 and was the basis for the 16v cosworth engine. I have to be careful how many times i say 'i'll give you a hand with that' but i am sure i could help and also a number of helpful people in the club who live in your vicinity. Anyway - just thinking out loud!
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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by brother benz68 » Mon 24 Aug, 2015 10:27 pm

CraigB wrote:In my opinion i reckon that weight saving is poor bang for your buck. $800 could buy you a whole W123 to get the 2.3 l engine out of! I don't know your skills or ability to store and wreck a car, but its not an uncommon engine, just that most were autos. Greg will be able to fill in on this but my understanding is that flywheel was balanced with the crank, so there is a risk if you just bolt the manual flywheel up to an auto engine that it wont be in balance. I have heard more stories where people bolted them up without a problem than having probs, but you could suck it and see and not a bad exercise to swap in an engine and then strip it to be balanced if need be later - particularly if your boys have any mechanical interest. But i am just not sure of the detail and if fuel injection set ups compatible etc. but I imagine it is a fairly straight forward process. And if you or your boys are into electonics then a programmable engine management system like megasquirt can offer a lot of bang for buck and offer road and track set ups. But i should have started by justifying my reasoning behind the effort of swapping the engine - I just used Wikipedia, but your 1.8 is 80kw and a w123 230e is 100kw - 25% up on your power that depending on finding a donor might be all up $1k outlay with some fun labour with the boys....... a lot more bang for buck in my book! The 2.3 is an oversquare 95.5 bore and something like 80 stroke and would imagine would rev every bit as hard as your 1.8 and was the basis for the 16v cosworth engine. I have to be careful how many times i say 'i'll give you a hand with that' but i am sure i could help and also a number of helpful people in the club who live in your vicinity. Anyway - just thinking out loud!
I think you are right about this and I will be saving my pennies but in the meantime I will try and get some use out of what I've got. But speaking for the future an engine swap would be the answer and luckily we probably would be able to accommodate a wreck and I am mechanically trained with a trade certificate so would be willing to give it a go, however I have never done anything this ambitious before.

Also there is a chance I may be able to go to Monarto for a look on Sunday after all so I may see you there. Will let you know later in the week.

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Re: 180E 5 speed manual - how many sold?

Post by CraigB » Mon 24 Aug, 2015 11:13 pm

And i thought that after posting, exactly what you have said - use what you have for now. This level is not like a race where you are constantly looking for every last hp so you can get past the opposition and hold a position etc - you are largely racing yourself or people in your own group, basically racing the clock, and with some experience i wouldn't expect to get my best time the first few times out. You are learning the car, the track, the sport etc and racing your own times. Performance upgrades make it more fun, will no doubt improve times but in reality, especially for the motorkhana, i reckon you could do your first run in your 180e or a Ferrari and probably get similar times. But still i reckon best item for starters is tyres, your connection to the track, brake better, stick better, accelerate better etc. Sometimes places like north terrace tyres will have secondhand sets of sticky tyres and i think 205/60 15 is a standard tyre for one of the classes and they would fit no doubt. There are events coming up like mt gambier etc etc where people with plenty of cash do occasional competition stuff and will take last years one event tyres and replace with fresh rubber and you can pick them up super cheap. I think nth tce would charge me $50 for yoko ao48 that were over 300 new, but that was a while ago now. I still remember all those years ago when i had my first set on my Alfa in a sprint and found i could pull another gear on the straight because the grip gave me that extra launch out of the corner. You may also pick them up googling with sales of them on motorsport club websites.

I was going to take a mate of my sons on Sunday but now his dad who has a Toyota 86 and sounds like will have a go if they have spaces. And of course now there is something else that has come up, a bird banding thing, but strangely it is about 10km away at Callington. So our plan is to meet that group at 9 and then at some point i will sneak away and come back again by 3pm. Anyway, we have each others mobile nos. now so will keep you posted.
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