New 6.9 purchased

Post by **m48pro69** » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 4:02 pm

Hi McGavin the problem is as soon as throttle opens it wheel spins torque climbs very sharply .Just out of interest that makes 235.95 kilowatts at the flywheel or 187.99 kilowatts at the wheels. And 472.922858543 Nm at the rear wheels.
:dance:

Post by **m48pro69** » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 4:15 pm

Hi see attached graph Torque is the top line.

Post by **m48pro69** » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 7:30 pm

Now for those that missed it .Now for those that missed it . Best to turn up the volume. Ok First good news dyno run as can be seen was done. Bad news throttle issues meant they could not get a proper run in. As throttle is to abrupt in take up so I have been told they will redo when I fix the throttle issues. But you can relax I did get a result not as good as my 278.5hp on rolling road . And not the final reading as issues with throttle meant it was to easy to hit limiter and could not do full load run. But 255.6hp at rear wheels Torque 348.81 foot pounds . Flywheel corrected 320.8hp . So 31.9hp Flywheel and 25.5hp at the wheels but will update as soon as I can when I sort throttle problem. So with the problems I had this morning I am down 22.9hp at the rear wheels from last run. But until throttle is more linear it will be touch and go. So that's my current task to fix it and stop wheel spin.Just out of interest that makes 235.95 kilowatts at the flywheel or 187.99 kilowatts at the wheels. And 472.922858543 Nm at the rear wheels. And just out of interest torque hit 800 foot pounds in second gear. Best to turn up the volume. Ok First good news dyno run as can be seen was done. Bad news throttle issues meant they could not get a proper run in. As throttle is to abrupt in take up so I have been told they will redo when I fix the throttle issues. But you can relax I did get a result not as good as my 278.5hp on rolling road . And not the final reading as issues with throttle meant it was to easy to hit limiter and could not do full load run. But 255.6hp at rear wheels Torque 348.81 foot pounds . Flywheel corrected 320.8hp . So 31.9hp Flywheel and 25.5hp at the wheels but will update as soon as I can when I sort throttle problem. So with the problems I had this morning I am down 22.9hp at the rear wheels from last run. But until throttle is more linear it will be touch and go. So that's my current task to fix it and stop wheel spin.Just out of interest that makes 235.95 kilowatts at the flywheel or 187.99 kilowatts at the wheels. And 472.922858543 Nm at the rear wheels. And just out of interest torque hit 800 foot pounds in second gear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ3CbLY ... e=youtu.be

Post by **John Green** » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 8:50 pm

I get "video does not exist" on the youtube link???

Post by **McGavin** » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 8:58 pm

Try post 98 in this thread, that worked.

Post by **m48pro69** » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 8:59 pm

Hi John fixed now sorry about that. :Doh:

Post by **m48pro69** » Sat 12 Jul, 2014 3:21 pm

Hi AFR was done on all runs it never went over 13.5 stayed mostly mid 12s . I have checked and re checked linkages even adjusted all slack that is not the problem. Throttle has no resistance with engine off it just goes to hell with engine on . Had to adjust idle up to make car driveable . Throttle needs hard push to start moving car then launches with sideways action and wheel spin. Under full throttle once moving its great. Try keeping speed even 100kmh it is on and off the throttle as light throttle causes throttle to close not pleasant. Been thinking its throttle plate jamming with shaft movement even though it was brand new throttle bought from VPW. Throttle pickup was changed from left side to right side with original linkage welded on to shaft removing cable pickup on left side. Been suggested throttle stop may be problem as had to add one on left side. Will investigate after next week as have legal issues to sort over next week taking up my days. Will let you know once fixed will redo dyno run.

Post by **m48pro69** » Thu 02 Oct, 2014 1:45 pm

Ok here are the pictures off the AMG Penta's fitted to my 6.9 with Continental tyres .

Post by **m48pro69** » Thu 02 Oct, 2014 2:51 pm

And I also purchased this today a 560 throttle body . Its the one in the middle with 75mm 6.9 throttle on left and just removed monster on the right. You will also notice I got the linkages with the 560 throttle body . Trying to make sure I don't have geometry problems when I fit the 560 81mm throttle body.

Post by **m48pro69** » Thu 09 Oct, 2014 5:12 pm

14.24@97.21mph at Kwinana last night. :dance:

Post by **McGavin** » Thu 09 Oct, 2014 6:06 pm

m48pro69 wrote:14.24@97.21mph at Kwinana last night. :dance:

Sounds like you have it sorted now. [emoji106]

Post by **m48pro69** » Thu 09 Oct, 2014 7:08 pm

That's after refitting standard throttle body. I found 560 throttle body day after refitting standard throttle body so will fit it and see as I know 560 throttle body works its been done before. Will need to get custom throttle body with 92mm plate to get it to work. After realising it was linkage issue with LS housing and binding of linkages. :think:

Post by **DBW124** » Wed 22 Oct, 2014 7:56 pm

m48pro69 wrote:14.24@97.21mph at Kwinana last night. :dance:

Impressive.

I have a 1978 Autocar road test of a UK spec 6.9. They got 15.4 for the quarter @90mph.

Post by **m48pro69** » Fri 31 Oct, 2014 11:33 pm

Mine is a Euro with custom extractors and dual 2.5 inch exhaust with x pipe. And now with 560 throttle body having replaced 92mm LS one which made more power but could not sort out drivability. Will look at it again later when I have time. Current power is 255.6hp at the wheels or around 325hp at flywheel. :dance:

Post by **kimrh** » Wed 26 Nov, 2014 11:12 am

m48pro69 wrote:And I also purchased this today a 560 throttle body . Its the one in the middle with 75mm 6.9 throttle on left and just removed monster on the right. You will also notice I got the linkages with the 560 throttle body . Trying to make sure I don't have geometry problems when I fit the 560 81mm throttle body.

Hey i ended up buying the engine/trans/diff out of that wrecked EuroSEC (minus the throttle body and linkages etc removed that you have now)

After doing a bit of research on the quiet i realised it is a 300hp version and was running the elusive 2.65LSD diff and the elusive higher flow 0438101016 fuel distributor that goes with that combo.
I did not let on what i knew and ended up getting the whole drive-train including the auto trans & the drive-shafts still attached to the diff for a bargain i felt.
Collected the whole lot on Saturday morning and they threw in the elusive Gen2 560 Euro front Qtr panels - (wider flared wheel arches by 1/2" to take wider rims) not seen in Aust- which they would not have been aware of - they had a bit of rust in one spot on the left side -but nothing i can't easily repair.
Came with the Try-Y's and the down pipes all in good condition.
Big score to find this combo here local in my own backyard.

Post by **m48pro69** » Wed 26 Nov, 2014 11:38 am

Your welcome that's why I said UK . I knew it was 300hp but did not tell them at wreckers. Didn't know about front guard's learn something everyday. Mate who told me it was there had told me it was high output version he has a 560SEL Euro with this engine and tri y's with full hydro suspension. :dance:

Post by **kimrh** » Sat 29 Nov, 2014 5:43 pm

Geoff i tied to reply to your Telstra email to me and it failed?
The part # you emailed is 001.140.77.53.87-T173
Thanks for advising the T/B part # so i can try and replace the same back on the 560 engine
Is your diameter estimate @ 81mm accurate? Can you re-check for me
I had a spare 500 T/B and it only measures 75mm at the top of the venturi ( part # 001.140.77.53.85 -T269)

I do reckon one of these Speedmaster Throttle body's (4 x butterfly staged opening) billet alloy would have been a better choice and not that expensive - $283 for the larger 1200cfm version or $265 for the 1000 cfm version
(Speedmaster are located in Aust and in USA) and great pricing on all their performance products
http://store.au.speedmaster79.com/p-976 ... -body.aspx
Cheers Kimbo

Post by **m48pro69** » Sun 30 Nov, 2014 3:48 am

OK will remeasure in the morning but yes it is bigger than 75mas that is 6,9 throttle body size and I have one off those spare as well.

Post by **julian** » Sun 30 Nov, 2014 10:49 am

Kim that's a really interesting throttle design from speedmaster.
Poiseuille's Law (fluid mechanics) tells me that the 4 plate design would be detrimental to flow compared to a single butterfly, as flow is proportional to the 4th power of the radius. That is before laminar flow and turbulence is taken into account. Have you experience running this design?
I am no engineer but would love to hear from someone who knows about this sort of thing to explain it to me.
Very interesting.

Post by **kimrh** » Sun 30 Nov, 2014 1:44 pm

Geoff measure it at the top opening for me please.
That 500 T/B i mucked around with either 75 or 76mm ( i just measured rough) actually fits the hole size opening in the lower chamber it bolts to.

If the T/B you have is 81mm it would have to taper down at the bottom to match up to the chamber hole opening plate it bolts to?

Post by **m48pro69** » Sun 30 Nov, 2014 5:41 pm

Ok Kim I had it wrong throttle blade is 75.4mm with callipers. 6.9 is 65mm see picture with 92mm as well.

Post by **kimrh** » Sun 30 Nov, 2014 9:32 pm

Thanks Gav -that is relief
That 6.9 T/B actually looks bigger in the pic
I only posted up that 4 butterfly billet T/B 1200cfm flow from Speedmaster as it is designed in staging to deliver more smooth throttle response & power delivery over the full rev range as the smaller venturi's create higher velocity flow at lower revs and are staged to open so at WOT they deliver the same flow as a large single T/B (much like the big Holley & other high performance carbs)

I was thinking it might solve your problem at lower revs using a high flow CFM T/B as big as that 92mm one you have
Just a thought

Post by **m48pro69** » Sun 30 Nov, 2014 10:29 pm

Hi Kim and for your future reference 75mm flows 920CFM .

Post by **Greg in Oz** » Mon 01 Dec, 2014 6:02 pm

kimrh wrote:...I only posted up that 4 butterfly billet T/B 1200cfm flow from Speedmaster as it is designed in staging to deliver more smooth throttle response & power delivery over the full rev range as the smaller venturi's create higher velocity flow at lower revs and are staged to open so at WOT they deliver the same flow as a large single T/B (much like the big Holley & other high performance carbs)

I was thinking it might solve your problem at lower revs using a high flow CFM T/B as big as that 92mm one you have
Just a thought

Multiple throttle butterflies opening sequentially is just another way to achieve what MB did with a single butterfly. Throttle linkages on (older) MB engines were designed to provide a smooth and progressive response. That is why the linkages appear so complex. The first 50% of pedal travel may only result in a 10% opening of the throttle butterfly and the remaining pedal travel sees progressively greater butterfly movement. The resulting throttle action is so progressive that many (non-regular MB) drivers criticised Mercs for having no throttle response and long pedal travel. It's not that the pedal travel was longer than on other cars, it's just that there wasn't the hair trigger action some cars had in the initial movement of the pedal. Some manufacturers did this because it created the (false) impression of a more powerful or responsive engine and was cheaper and easier than manufacturing complex throttle linkages. All to often those cars had a hair trigger throttle that did everything in the first 10% of the pedal travel and the remaining 90% did little more. Of course, these days with "fly by wire" throttle actuation, manufacturers can program any number of desired throttle behaviours to suit the driving mood or "mode".

I suspect part of Geoff's problem with replacing the original throttle body with one that was significantly larger negated much of that progressive action. Even a small opening of a very large throttle body allows sufficient air flow for an engine as big as the 6.9 to adopt a very severe throttle response, unleashing heaps of torque in a rather uncontrolled manner. The large throttle body could very well be used however the linkages would need to be redesigned to become even more progressive than they were for the original smaller throttle body.

Post by **cuisses** » Mon 01 Dec, 2014 6:49 pm

Greg in Oz wrote: Multiple throttle butterflies opening sequentially is just another way to achieve what MB did with a single butterfly. Throttle linkages on (older) MB engines were designed to provide a smooth and progressive response. That is why the linkages appear so complex. The first 50% of pedal travel may only result in a 10% opening of the throttle butterfly and the remaining pedal travel sees progressively greater butterfly movement. The resulting throttle action is so progressive that many (non-regular MB) drivers criticised Mercs for having no throttle response and long pedal travel. It's not that the pedal travel was longer than on other cars, it's just that there wasn't the hair trigger action some cars had in the initial movement of the pedal. Some manufacturers did this because it created the (false) impression of a more powerful or responsive engine and was cheaper and easier than manufacturing complex throttle linkages. All to often those cars had a hair trigger throttle that did everything in the first 10% of the pedal travel and the remaining 90% did little more. Of course, these days with "fly by wire" throttle actuation, manufacturers can program any number of desired throttle behaviours to suit the driving mood or "mode".

I suspect part of Geoff's problem with replacing the original throttle body with one that was significantly larger negated much of that progressive action. Even a small opening of a very large throttle body allows sufficient air flow for an engine as big as the 6.9 to adopt a very severe throttle response, unleashing heaps of torque in a rather uncontrolled manner. The large throttle body could very well be used however the linkages would need to be redesigned to become even more progressive than they were for the original smaller throttle body.

This is interesting - I wouldn't have guessed this. I need to have a good look at my linkage as it doesn't open the butterfly valve fully, which is going to cause me real problems when m48pro69 comes to Canberra and I have to race him down Belconnen Way in my 4.5

.

Post by **tony66au** » Fri 26 Dec, 2014 4:04 pm

Greg in Oz wrote:
kimrh wrote:...I only posted up that 4 butterfly billet T/B 1200cfm flow from Speedmaster as it is designed in staging to deliver more smooth throttle response & power delivery over the full rev range as the smaller venturi's create higher velocity flow at lower revs and are staged to open so at WOT they deliver the same flow as a large single T/B (much like the big Holley & other high performance carbs)

I was thinking it might solve your problem at lower revs using a high flow CFM T/B as big as that 92mm one you have
Just a thought
Multiple throttle butterflies opening sequentially is just another way to achieve what MB did with a single butterfly. Throttle linkages on (older) MB engines were designed to provide a smooth and progressive response. That is why the linkages appear so complex. The first 50% of pedal travel may only result in a 10% opening of the throttle butterfly and the remaining pedal travel sees progressively greater butterfly movement. The resulting throttle action is so progressive that many (non-regular MB) drivers criticised Mercs for having no throttle response and long pedal travel. It's not that the pedal travel was longer than on other cars, it's just that there wasn't the hair trigger action some cars had in the initial movement of the pedal. Some manufacturers did this because it created the (false) impression of a more powerful or responsive engine and was cheaper and easier than manufacturing complex throttle linkages. All to often those cars had a hair trigger throttle that did everything in the first 10% of the pedal travel and the remaining 90% did little more. Of course, these days with "fly by wire" throttle actuation, manufacturers can program any number of desired throttle behaviours to suit the driving mood or "mode".

I suspect part of Geoff's problem with replacing the original throttle body with one that was significantly larger negated much of that progressive action. Even a small opening of a very large throttle body allows sufficient air flow for an engine as big as the 6.9 to adopt a very severe throttle response, unleashing heaps of torque in a rather uncontrolled manner. The large throttle body could very well be used however the linkages would need to be redesigned to become even more progressive than they were for the original smaller throttle body.

WOW that explains an awful lot Greg!

Might check and see if Mr Memnoch has seen your reply on this.

Post by **m48pro69** » Sat 07 Feb, 2015 12:08 pm

What everyone hopefully has been waiting for is go button has been pushed for more work to commence. Engine will be pulled next month pictures and description will be provided along the way. Parts list at the moment is for a 7.6 litre upgrade with 10 to 1 compression. May decide to go bigger.

Post by **w221_vik** » Sat 07 Feb, 2015 8:46 pm

Wow, nice classic!

Post by **m48pro69** » Sun 08 Feb, 2015 3:26 pm

Time frame video of Memnoch with parts bought and mods so far. Music warning its Sympathy for the Devil (Janes Addiction) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6TjcK0 ... e=youtu.be

Post by **olddog642** » Sun 08 Feb, 2015 10:20 pm

m48pro69 wrote:Time frame video of Memnoch with parts bought and mods so far. Music warning its Sympathy for the Devil (Janes Addiction) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6TjcK0 ... e=youtu.be

Great video and love the music
cheers
Hylton

Post by **m48pro69** » Sun 08 Feb, 2015 11:22 pm

Watch out looking to move to Canberra in next few months.

Post by **olddog642** » Sun 08 Feb, 2015 11:39 pm

m48pro69 wrote:Watch out looking to move to Canberra in next few months.

Let us know when you do so as a meet up can be arranged as I'm sure that the other Canberra folk would also like to check out your baby
Cheers
Hylton

Post by **m48pro69** » Mon 09 Feb, 2015 12:12 am

Currently looking Gungahlin area. But by time I move will have engine 7.6 built and fitted and car painted to look something like avatar.

Post by **m48pro69** » Mon 09 Feb, 2015 12:16 am

This video off my car very quiet vehicle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk3LrogTT1c

Post by **olddog642** » Mon 09 Feb, 2015 1:20 am

m48pro69 wrote:Currently looking Gungahlin area. But by time I move will have engine 7.6 built and fitted and car painted to look something like avatar.

I'm too old to be saying words like cool and grouse but with that engine and looking like your avatar what else can I say other than perhaps Bloody Awsome eheh
Cheers
Hylton

Post by **m48pro69** » Mon 09 Feb, 2015 2:03 am

Don't worry looking back on 40 is just a memory . And closing on 50 way to fast. But as can be seen have genuine AMG Penta's on the car also have AMG front spoiler for when its painted.

Post by **m48pro69** » Tue 10 Feb, 2015 8:33 pm

Looking forward to seeing results with engine done. Been on back burner for far to long. :dance:

Post by **m48pro69** » Mon 02 Mar, 2015 6:13 pm

Ok here is first update. Its only initial CAD Scans for lathe but you can see its taking shape .

Post by **Mercmad** » Mon 02 Mar, 2015 7:08 pm

Nice!!! I better start saving my pennies...

Post by **m48pro69** » Mon 02 Mar, 2015 8:55 pm

I wont be taking delivery for a few weeks yet. As waiting for money to clear. But yes it should be nice.

Post by **MMWA** » Mon 02 Mar, 2015 9:24 pm

Very cool what can be done these days before metal is even touched.

Post by **m48pro69** » Mon 02 Mar, 2015 10:24 pm

Bolt pattern and all geometry is being cross referenced with original. Looking forward to using it.

Post by **MMWA** » Tue 03 Mar, 2015 10:13 am

I reckon if these were put on ebay there would be quite a bit of interest. Especially if they could be made for other models too.

I'm pretty sure the tb even on my piddly 3L w124 is bigger than the stock drinking straw /whistle sized 6.9 one ;)

Post by **m48pro69** » Tue 03 Mar, 2015 11:41 am

It was easier to order 3 rather than 1 . I have already had 1 spoken for leaving 1 more to find a home. If more had put there hand up they would be cheaper still. I understand people want to wait to see how I report how they work and results. But I will not be getting anymore made. You want one you can do the work.

Post by **olddog642** » Tue 03 Mar, 2015 10:59 pm

m48pro69 wrote:It was easier to order 3 rather than 1 . I have already had 1 spoken for leaving 1 more to find a home. If more had put there hand up they would be cheaper still. I understand people want to wait to see how I report how they work and results. But I will not be getting anymore made. You want one you can do the work.

I agree with you, some times I get pissed off when people want to take advantage get something for little after all the hard work has been done

Post by **m48pro69** » Sun 08 Mar, 2015 11:23 pm

Ok as well as the billet throttle body being made . Engine comes out in 2 weeks to be made a 7.6 litre . Throttle body is 85mm . I have confirmed order for Dkubus FrankenCIS as well for tunning . While engine is out looking around to give gear box a birthday. It is working perfectly but with new engine may as well freshen it. Will send Dkubus my torque converter for upgrade and high stall while I am at its . FrankenCIS system by Dkubus, component list:
Wideband O2 with The latest Bosch 4.9 sensor, 3 bar map sensor for boost or n/a setup, fast response Intake air temp sensor, engine temp sensor, full braided loom, FrankenCIS e-WUR unit assembled with digital 100 psi sensor, pressure damper, control injector & temp sensor, Microsquirt ECU with sealed case and pre loaded with firmware and base tune to suit start-up. Dedicated ignition loom, option loom, fuel loom. Simple hook up / plug in. Installation manual.

Post by **m48pro69** » Sun 08 Mar, 2015 11:29 pm

Dkubus now offering 2 options in torque converters first is our "rally/road/sporty" converter for 400+hp and then also a new "race/track" model for less rotating mass and bigger bearings plus a higher launch RPM built strong for 750+hp!!
We race, and develop so that you can buy parts that work.

Post by **m48pro69** » Tue 10 Mar, 2015 8:42 pm

And so it begins Billet blocks cut for fitting to CNC Lathe to make 85mm throttle bodies.

Post by **m48pro69** » Thu 12 Mar, 2015 10:17 pm

First block of Billet has been turned on the lathe this is the result so far.

Post by **AMG** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 5:46 pm

Looks neat enough.
CNC didn't bore the mounting holes? or are you doing that in a separate mill?

Only wondering why - as I see the throttle shaft bores are done and bearings installed.
Are you adding any of the vac ports from the standard 560 body?