380 SE

1979-1991 280SE, 300SE, 300SEL, 380SE, 380SEL, 380SEC, 420SE, 420SEL, 420SEC, 500SE, 500SEL, 500SEC, 560SEL, 560SEC
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carl888
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380 SE

Post by carl888 » Fri 25 May, 2012 11:57 pm

I found a 1985 Australian delivered 380 SE for sale one block from me. One owner, deceased estate, 104,900 kms. Sounds OK so far, but hadn't been driven for 8 years, and 3 months. Just been sitting in the basement of an apartment block...........with one of the rear windows part down. The poor thing was absolutely filthy both inside and out. Coverered in cob webs, a spiders nest under one of the rear floor mats, snails stuck to the air cleaner box and cam covers. There was an alarming quantity of mice poo distributed under the car. I had to make a decision on the spot whether to buy the car. I had no opportunity to test it so the engine could have been damaged for all I knew. The late owners daughter was keen for the car to end up with an enthusiast and not parted out or scrapped, but she wasn't sure it it ran when it was parked, but it was reasonable to assume that it did. Cosmetically it looked OK, some scrapes on the bumpers, a swipe in the DS rear wheel arch, two dented skirts and oddly, some timber veneer missing from the glovebox lid and LH vent vent surround. Anyway, I took the risk, said yes, and picked it up last week.

Some pics as I found it:

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I didn't dare try to start it at the pick up address, so had it flat topped to my garage. I noted in the service documents the last service was 437 kms prior, so at least the oil was reasonably fresh when it left standing. The fuel tank was on reserve, or so the fresh battery suggested, I put in 20 liters of fuel. Then pulled out the plugs, squirted a decent quantity of both Wuerth Rost Off followed by Wuerth synthetic grease from an aerosol can down the bores. I turned the engine over by hand for 5 revolutions. Replaced the plugs then cranked the motor for one minute (Two burst of 30 seconds, I was scared of burning out the starter!) with the fuel pump relay removed. Oil pressure gauge flickering warmed my heart (Along with seeing oil on the camshaft lobes through the oil filler hole).

I replaced the fuel pump relay and cracked off the supply line to the metering unit and was pleased to see fuel leaking from the union after cranking the engine for two seconds with the ignition disabled. Now connected, I cranked the car and it fired first time, but died after about a second. It needed to be cranked another 30 seconds before it finally started. First on 7 cylinders, then all 8, and settled down to a smooth idle. I let it run for about 10 minutes, feeling very happy.

First job was to clean it, it was the filthiest car I have ever cleaned, just disgusting. I will need to shampoo the carpets ultimately, but I manged to wash off the more stubborn stains by hand, and of course the interior was covered in a fine layer of silt. I washed the interior with soap and water. So my first drive was from the back of the garage to the front, about 25 meters. I was nervous about the brakes, but it had a pedal which was a good start. And it pulled up at the end of the drive, lucky. This is how it turned out after two days of vacuuming and washing:

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I changed the brake fluid (That was foul, the initial fluid bleed appeared to be like treacle) so I hope there are no corrision issues in the caliper bores, but I would be surprised if not, really. I will do a fluid and filter change for the engine, transmission, power steering and change the differential oil and coolant. Along with a host of other deferred maintenance jobs. I am particularly worried about the transmission, lets see how that works out. The 2/3 and 3/4 changes are seamless, but the 1/2 change is hard shifting. Lets see if a fluid and filter change helps, perhaps a modulation pressure adjustment miught be in order. And it seems very keen to down shift on a moderate throttle too.

So far everything works except for the pneumatic height adjustment for the headlights along with the air conditioning, no surprise on the air con, but I dislike inoperative things, so the headlights need further investigation. And the cosmetic issues will drive me nuts, but I must do the mechanical items first. The tyres are 12 years old, and would be binned anyway, even if they were round due to age (They feel somewhat square!) and today I ordered a set of Michelin XWX 205/70-14 which was painful financially. I won't have a chance this weekend to do much, but I plan to get into it the following weekend. More to come later no doubt.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by Dr Diesel » Sat 26 May, 2012 2:18 am

L'magnifique! :love10:
Modest outside, magnificent inside. :dance:

But urgently requires a new burred walnut incrustations and audits of the SLS... :pray:
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Re: 380 SE

Post by John Green » Sat 26 May, 2012 8:18 am

That is a might nice find you have there. And in my favorite colour scheme for that model..
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Re: 380 SE

Post by KimB » Sat 26 May, 2012 5:08 pm

What a ripper of a find. Back from the dead! Fabo! You deserve a beer :occasion5:
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Re: 380 SE

Post by Giles » Sat 26 May, 2012 5:16 pm

Nice work, it's not what you start with it's how it looks once it's finished. Most people can't see past the dirt, couldn't count the amount of cars I've bought in similar condition this. It just takes effort and forstight and that's evident here. Well done.
Regards,

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Tue 29 May, 2012 11:33 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:L'magnifique! :love10:
Modest outside, magnificent inside. :dance:

But urgently requires a new burred walnut incrustations and audits of the SLS... :pray:
Yes, that missing timber is awful, it's odd how that section is missing, there appears to be no localised impact marks to suggest it was levered off. And the car was always under cover too.

The SLS is working fine, when the engine is running the car is level. After a day it does settle, same with the 280 SE as well.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Wed 30 May, 2012 12:36 am

Thanks Giles, Kim, John and Dr. Diesel,

Haven't had the chance to do too much since the last message except a little more cleaning. Funny how you can leave a boot looking like this:

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OK, I admit on the RHS are some manuals of mine, but the rest of the junk shown was how I found it.


Better now:

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Time warp Michelin XVS after many years:

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And when I cleaned the back seat, look what was under it..............

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Better now:

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And can someone explain how on earth the carpet in the centre console ends up like this?

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Urgghhh! More cleaning pics to come no doubt.


A couple of points.....its had an accident on the drivers side front, there is a very small crease in the metalwork under the headlight unit. Its been very nicely repaired (Apart from the crease!) however the replacement headlight, wait for it............is a LHD unit. The glass carries the assymetric lens for left hand drive cars. I only picked it up when I was adjusting the headlight aim and noticed the symmetrical beam on the wall. How silly. The pneumatic aim adjustment is also inoperative. So I'll be chasing a headlight lens and I can't stand things that don't work so will look at the aim adjustment too. The park brake dash light is illuminated permanantly so that requires investigation and the air conditioning requires gassing. I can see a lower ball joint with a cracked rubber and the two caster rod bushes appear average but until I play around with with a pry bar on the suspension I am not sure how much of it will need work, probably most of it!

It looks quite nice in the pics, but the paintwork was covered in many fine small black spots. Appeared to be bug poo from years in the car park. Rather than removing them mechanically, which I think would have taken a year or two, I decided to the leave the car outside in the rain for a few days. Amazing, all the goo washed off, thanks Melbourne! And I've now determined it doesn't leak.

I can see a vacuum line missing from the top of the vacuum advance/retard mechanism on the distributor. Or rather, since the rubber hose is present, I see no line attached, I am assuming there IS meant to be a line there. Can anyone confirm? Also, I notice this ADR 27 compliant engine carries the horrific retard switches on the LHS of the engine bay which I assume are like the M110 engines.....that when in 3rd and 4th the ignition is retarded? Speaking of retarded, the static ingnition timing is specified at 5 degrees ATDC? And the European version with 9.0 compression (As opposed to 8.3:1 for Australia) is 3 degrees BTDC. I can feel a bit more to come from this engine....... As it stands, the 280 SE no slower from the seat of the pants at least. I received a full set of books for the car, but missing from the owners wallet is the Australian suppliment for the emissions equipment. I would dearly love to see the diagram if anyone has one spare they could upload?

I am looking forward to getting stuck into this car, it needs a lot of work but I'm hoping what's there is relatively unmolestered. At least its been under cover all its life and until it was laid up, had regular maintenance.

The 380 brings a lot of memories back for me, my father bought one new in 1983, a long wheel base car, white with blue. He ordered it with a limited slip differential, I recall the two bottles of LSD oil in the boot on delivery that were supposed to be used for the first service. It was registered initially on Victorian plates BPY 979 then 380 083 when he sold it in 1986 through Lanes motors Melbourne. I wonder if that car is still around?

CJ

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Wed 30 May, 2012 12:51 am

Ooops, another question or two...

Does anyone know the reason why the Australian 380 engined cars had a 3.27:1 final drive? The engine spins at a lofty 2,850 rpm at 100 km/h, silly. The Euro version was 2.47:1 giving about 2,160 rpm at the same speed. It can't be for performance, the USA 380 had the Euro final drive. Yet the federalised engine was just 155 HP? Odd.

Speaking of power outputs, I can't see the Australian 380 engine being 197 HP and the Euro version being 204. Surely the Australian engine must be like 20 HP less than its European counterpart with 8.3:1 compression instead of 9.0:1, EGR, air pump and retarded ignition? I alos wonder if Australia ever received any of the very early 380 engines with the different bore and stroke, I think they were phased out at the end of 1981. Perhaps John might know?

CJ

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Re: 380 SE

Post by Dr Diesel » Wed 30 May, 2012 4:20 am

carl888 wrote:Ooops, another question or two...

Does anyone know the reason why the Australian 380 engined cars had a 3.27:1 final drive? The engine spins at a lofty 2,850 rpm at 100 km/h, silly. The Euro version was 2.47:1 giving about 2,160 rpm at the same speed. It can't be for performance, the USA 380 had the Euro final drive. Yet the federalised engine was just 155 HP? Odd.

Speaking of power outputs, I can't see the Australian 380 engine being 197 HP and the Euro version being 204. Surely the Australian engine must be like 20 HP less than its European counterpart with 8.3:1 compression instead of 9.0:1, EGR, air pump and retarded ignition? I alos wonder if Australia ever received any of the very early 380 engines with the different bore and stroke, I think they were phased out at the end of 1981. Perhaps John might know?

CJ
The 380s in an AUS-version have had identical with euro differentials, i.e. 3.27 up to 09/1981 and 2.47 from 10/1981.

380 SE/SEL in an AUS-ver. could be equipped with 116.961 (<09.1981) and 116.963 (>10.1981),
but AUS-version of a 116.961 identical to 116.963 - total displacement 3 839 cc,
while a standard 116.961 have had total displacement of 3 818 cc.


Salut! :king:
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Re: 380 SE

Post by Dr Diesel » Wed 30 May, 2012 5:06 am

Vacuum scheme:
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Re: 380 SE

Post by 420 SE » Wed 30 May, 2012 11:51 am

What a great find!

It certainly appears to have scrubbed up well also. I like these stories...
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Re: 380 SE

Post by Boyracer » Wed 30 May, 2012 12:54 pm

Nice score! I love these barn find threads too.

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By the way, I recently brought five new Michie XVS in from the UK at the bargan price of $350 each landed! :Doh:
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Re: 380 SE

Post by Giles » Wed 30 May, 2012 9:21 pm

Love the 'look what's under the rear seat' photo. First thing I do when I bring a new car home is remove the back seat. Haven't found that gold nugget, diamond earring, or 5kgs of powder yet, but did find a few gold cions with the latest purchase.

Regards,

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Thu 31 May, 2012 12:34 am

Dr Diesel wrote:
The 380s in an AUS-version have had identical with euro differentials, i.e. 3.27 up to 09/1981 and 2.47 from 10/1981.

380 SE/SEL in an AUS-ver. could be equipped with 116.961 (<09.1981) and 116.963 (>10.1981),
but AUS-version of a 116.961 identical to 116.963 - total displacement 3 839 cc,
while a standard 116.961 have had total displacement of 3 818 cc.


Salut! :king:
[/quote]

Hi Dr. Diesel,

Thank you for the vacuum diagram, it will certainly help to improve my German, which is a good thing. I see the distributor is supposed to have two vacuum lines from it, mine has one, I will investigate this. I assumed (Perhaps incorrectly??) that the vacuum arrangement was unique to the Australian cars. The European models surely didn't have EGR let alone a smog pump?

All Australian 380 varients had the 3.27:1 differential, the 2.47:1 was never offered here. Also, the 116.961 engine was not offered here either, all Australian 380s are the 3839cc engine. The 280 SE W126 was sold in Australia for the 1981 model year and the 380 was available a year later. But I am unsure as to why this short final drive ratio was used in all 380s in Australia. As I said, silly!

Oh, another question, do the European 380s have starting torque compensation? The Australian cars do not. I had a look at the EPC this evening, I found it very difficult to interpret. I much prefer the paper manuals. I still use microfiche if I can :dance:

I wonder also if there is a distributor advance curve chart available for this engine?

CJ

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Re: 380 SE

Post by Dr Diesel » Thu 31 May, 2012 3:57 am

carl888 wrote:All Australian 380 varients had the 3.27:1 differential, the 2.47:1 was never offered here. Also, the 116.961 engine was not offered here either, all Australian 380s are the 3839cc engine. The 280 SE W126 was sold in Australia for the 1981 model year and the 380 was available a year later. But I am unsure as to why this short final drive ratio was used in all 380s in Australia.
I was mistaken in occasion of differentials. All AUS 380s have
"RATIO 1:3.27; ONLY FOR SWEDEN & AUSTRALIA; WITH ANTI-LOCK BRAKING SYSTEM & LIMITED- SLIP DIFFERENTIAL".

All australian 380s have 3.839 ccm engines, but up to 09.1981 it is .961 (380 SEL) and from 10.1981 it is .963 (380 SE/380 SEL).
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Re: 380 SE

Post by Dr Diesel » Thu 31 May, 2012 4:06 am

carl888 wrote:Oh, another question, do the European 380s have starting torque compensation? The Australian cars do not.
No, european 380s do not have it.
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Re: 380 SE

Post by Dr Diesel » Thu 31 May, 2012 4:19 am

carl888 wrote:The European models surely didn't have EGR let alone a smog pump?
All M116.963 have a EGR, i.e. an european 380s have EGR from 10/1981.
European 380s with CAT also have air pump and CR 8.3:1.
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Re: 380 SE

Post by Dr Diesel » Thu 31 May, 2012 5:01 am

carl888 wrote:Thank you for the vacuum diagram, it will certainly help to improve my German, which is a good thing. I see the distributor is supposed to have two vacuum lines from it, mine has one, I will investigate this. I assumed (Perhaps incorrectly??) that the vacuum arrangement was unique to the Australian cars.
Investigate please. :dontknow:


:read2:

+ new diagramm:
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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sat 09 Jun, 2012 12:56 am

Dr Diesel wrote:
carl888 wrote:All Australian 380 varients had the 3.27:1 differential, the 2.47:1 was never offered here. Also, the 116.961 engine was not offered here either, all Australian 380s are the 3839cc engine. The 280 SE W126 was sold in Australia for the 1981 model year and the 380 was available a year later. But I am unsure as to why this short final drive ratio was used in all 380s in Australia.
I was mistaken in occasion of differentials. All AUS 380s have
"RATIO 1:3.27; ONLY FOR SWEDEN & AUSTRALIA; WITH ANTI-LOCK BRAKING SYSTEM & LIMITED- SLIP DIFFERENTIAL".

All australian 380s have 3.839 ccm engines, but up to 09.1981 it is .961 (380 SEL) and from 10.1981 it is .963 (380 SE/380 SEL).
Hi Dr. Diesel,

Well this is interesting. The limited slip differential was not standard for Australia.

Regards,

Carl.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sat 09 Jun, 2012 1:01 am

Dr Diesel wrote:
carl888 wrote:Thank you for the vacuum diagram, it will certainly help to improve my German, which is a good thing. I see the distributor is supposed to have two vacuum lines from it, mine has one, I will investigate this. I assumed (Perhaps incorrectly??) that the vacuum arrangement was unique to the Australian cars.
Investigate please. :dontknow:


:read2:

+ new diagramm:
OK, here we go Dr. Diesel, this is from my paper manual, sadly, the WIS, for which I have access, is not running correctly on my PC, I keep getting a script error. In 2017 when I work it out....

Anyway, back to the manual, here is the reference to the single vacuum line on the distributor.

Regards,

Carl.

Image

Image

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sat 09 Jun, 2012 1:03 am

Dr Diesel wrote:
carl888 wrote:Oh, another question, do the European 380s have starting torque compensation? The Australian cars do not.
No, european 380s do not have it.
Thank you.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sat 09 Jun, 2012 1:04 am

Dr Diesel wrote:
carl888 wrote:The European models surely didn't have EGR let alone a smog pump?
All M116.963 have a EGR, i.e. an european 380s have EGR from 10/1981.
European 380s with CAT also have air pump and CR 8.3:1.
Thank again, and mine won't have EGR much longer....

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sat 09 Jun, 2012 1:24 am

I've been playing a little with the 380. The car died on me last weekend. I'm not surprised poor thing, I was driving to the workshop and it stopped. I managed to restart it and make it to the shop. Further investigation revealed the fuel injection metering unit had seized in the wide open position!

Have a look at the varnish on the base of the fuel distributor, disgusting, and I had to lever the metering piston out with two screwdrivers, it was stuck solid. Wuerth Carburettor cleaner to the rescue!

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I would have preferred to the split the fuel distributor halves however I did not have a gasket, and I had to move the car that day. After mixture set up, if the car is not smooth, I will remove the fuel distributor again and rebuild it properly. I have a friend at Bosch who can help me with a K-Jetronic test bench.

And after cleaning:

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While the other pieces were soaking, I had a little clean up of the exposed parts:

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And all back together:

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More later.....

Regards,

Carl.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sat 09 Jun, 2012 1:32 am

I found an early 380/500 brochure from 1981 in my collection, here is the 3,818cc engined car, you can see the 6,600 rpm limit and with the 3.27 final drive, the top speed in third gear is about 175 km/h instead of 157 km/h of the latter 3,839cc engine with the 5,950 rpm limit.

Image

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sat 09 Jun, 2012 1:47 am

Oh, and I found some more snails:

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But it is getting cleaner, slowly.....

Image

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sat 09 Jun, 2012 1:53 am

And in good company!

Image

This weekend I will try to complete the majority of the mechanical items on my list. Then I can begin on the cosmetics.

A happy weekend to everyone.

Regards,

Carl.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by Ivanerrol » Sat 09 Jun, 2012 12:02 pm

Splitting apart the fuel distributor is really a job for the professionals.

There are a multitude of special adjustments and measurements that must be made with specialized equipment to get the flow correct.

Unfortunately given the state of the plunger, I suspect that the insides of the F.D. may indeed be gunked up. I would leave it as it is for a while and see how it performs. If it looks like being a bummer I would be sourcing a rebuilt unit from somewhere.
According to overseas injection specialists, the over liberal use of injection cleaner and low quality fuel doesn't do the gasket and the rubber seals inside the FD any good at all.

Be prepared to replace all fuel components just in case. The fuel tank may need cleaning out.

Your car is too good not to get this right.
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Re: 380 SE

Post by KimB » Sat 09 Jun, 2012 5:17 pm

"Oh, and I found some more snails"

Why not put the snails on top of the dashboard....so that when you drive down the street, people will look and say: "See that S car go!" (French speakers will get it!) Boom! Boom!
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Re: 380 SE

Post by Ivanerrol » Sat 09 Jun, 2012 9:55 pm

KimB wrote:"Oh, and I found some more snails"

Why not put the snails on top of the dashboard....so that when you drive down the street, people will look and say: "See that S car go!" (French speakers will get it!) Boom! Boom!
For those non French speakers here are some" S car Goes:""
escargot-pastries.jpg
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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sun 10 Jun, 2012 11:06 pm

Ivanerrol wrote:Splitting apart the fuel distributor is really a job for the professionals.

There are a multitude of special adjustments and measurements that must be made with specialized equipment to get the flow correct.

Unfortunately given the state of the plunger, I suspect that the insides of the F.D. may indeed be gunked up. I would leave it as it is for a while and see how it performs. If it looks like being a bummer I would be sourcing a rebuilt unit from somewhere.
According to overseas injection specialists, the over liberal use of injection cleaner and low quality fuel doesn't do the gasket and the rubber seals inside the FD any good at all.

Be prepared to replace all fuel components just in case. The fuel tank may need cleaning out.

Your car is too good not to get this right.

I don't think so (Re: the fuel distributor). Sadly, I know of no fuel injection specialist, at least in Victoria, that has a K-Jet bench. if you know of someone who does, I would be very interested to know! I found out the hard way, my other W126 was a legacy of Melbourne's so called "Professional" K-Jet rebuilder, I subsequently discovered they didn't even have the ability to set up the distributor individually. The car was returned idling just as roughly as before the rebuild. Eventually after being fobbed off, I had to do it myself. With the help of my Bosch friend we manged to get the car to run beautifully. I have access to his equipment, plus a 3 gas analyser, I'll do it myself thanks! I would have pulled the whole injection system down on the 380 however I have access to the hoist/workshop area only on weekends so the car had to move that night. I figure with a few tanks of fuel through it that's as good as it is going to get. I am yet to do a gas analysis however. The car runs really nicely, it does have a slight miss at idle though. I will have a look at the injection system after I have replaced the points, cap, plugs, air filter, fuel filter, adjusted the mixture and set the timing.

Yes, carburettor cleaner is hostile to the innards I understand, thanks for the tip. I filled the distributor with it (Black poo ran out) but after about 30 seconds I flushed it with petrol, we will see what happens.

The biggest problem with this car, is in fact these other two, the 380 is the runt of the litter presently and it will take a lot of time and a chunk of money to get to that standard of the others:

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and:

Image

Image

Image

But the 380 deserved to be saved, it was orginally heading to the wreckers, and it was a chance encounter that enabled me to rescue it.

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carl888
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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sun 10 Jun, 2012 11:08 pm

KimB wrote:"Oh, and I found some more snails"

Why not put the snails on top of the dashboard....so that when you drive down the street, people will look and say: "See that S car go!" (French speakers will get it!) Boom! Boom!
....groan :)

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carl888
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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sun 10 Jun, 2012 11:28 pm

OK, back to work...

I see the distributor advance mechanism is connected to the inlet manifold via a solenoid operated valve. I understand that the purpose of this is to retard the ignition in 3rd. and 4th. gear. Can anyone confirm if it serves any other function? In the following image, the solenoid valve is the one closest to the camera.

Image


And look at this disgusting device:

Image


It fell off, sadly:

Image

Notice the kink in the lower radiator hose? Does anyone have a U.K. specification 380? I would be curious to know if this lower hose is shorter for these models, as it is not necessary for the hose to clear this tool of the devil.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sun 10 Jun, 2012 11:34 pm

A question regarding the charcoal cannister. Why is the charcoal cannister not connected to the inlet manifold permantly? I am trying to understand the point of the 50 degrees C thermo switch and the vacuum arrangement with a check valve. It's not making sense!

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Sun 10 Jun, 2012 11:41 pm

Another job...it pays to have a look under the battery tray. Some surface corrosion:

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and after application of some rust converter:

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Re: 380 SE

Post by ben108 » Mon 11 Jun, 2012 10:18 am

carl888 wrote:OK, back to work...

I see the distributor advance mechanism is connected to the inlet manifold via a solenoid operated valve. I understand that the purpose of this is to retard the ignition in 3rd. and 4th. gear. Can anyone confirm if it serves any other function? In the following image, the solenoid valve is the one closest to the camera.

I can't speak specifically for a W126, but this is common for cars of this era as a simple strategy to reduce emissions.
The sad part is that it increases fuel consumption.
Imagine that! Reduce emission by burning more fuel... Car makers struggled in the 80's to adapt emissions equipment to existing motors :)
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Re: 380 SE

Post by BradA » Mon 11 Jun, 2012 12:41 pm

I just had a look under the bonnet of my w123 280E. It appears to be similarly afflicted. Question is, how to disable?

Brad

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Re: 380 SE

Post by John Green » Mon 11 Jun, 2012 5:09 pm

Couple of stunning cars there... Re the lower hose from memory you just use a 420/560 lower hose. We should have them in stock.
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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 12:17 am

carl888 wrote:OK, back to work...

I see the distributor advance mechanism is connected to the inlet manifold via a solenoid operated valve. I understand that the purpose of this is to retard the ignition in 3rd. and 4th. gear. Can anyone confirm if it serves any other function? In the following image, the solenoid valve is the one closest to the camera.

Image
Correction, the solenoid that affects vacuum retard is the one farthest from the camera. I can also confirm that in 3rd. and 4th. the ignition is retarded about 4 degrees by this device. I assume this is to reduce NOx emissions at the expense of fuel comsumption. (Added to the already retarded ignition settings for the Australian cars).

Can I ask other Australian 380 specification owners to have a look at their distributor please. I would like to know if any have the vacuum advance mechanism connected. The vacuum retard is the line connected to the diaphragm on the INSIDE. The advance mechanism is the line on the OUTSIDE.

On my car at least, that appeared relatively unmolested, the vacuum advance was not connected, and I could see no evidence of a vacuum line where it may be so. Curious! The manual I think is wrong, it says it should have the vacuum adavance circuit only. Any ideas?

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 12:20 am

BradA wrote:I just had a look under the bonnet of my w123 280E. It appears to be similarly afflicted. Question is, how to disable?

Brad
Brad, I also have a M110 engined 280, I have done similar work to it, as I'm doing to the 380. The position of the solenoid is the same as the 380, read my correction below. I assume you are mechanically minded, you may as well throw some advance on it as well, but you MUST use 95 RON fuel. In the owners manual should be the Australian suppliment that should detail the emissions system.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 12:27 am

John Green wrote:Couple of stunning cars there... Re the lower hose from memory you just use a 420/560 lower hose. We should have them in stock.
Gosh, that's quite a compliment coming from you! And thanks re: the hose. I have a rather long list John, when it's finalised, I'll send it off.

I would rather have the shorter hose, but I won't change it until I do the coolant for the second time. I've had a few of these laid up cars before, I found I never get more than 1,000 kms from the water pump after recomissioning. So I'll do the pump and the hose together :) Along with the corect blue coolant!

A word of warning, if anyone wishes to remove the air pump bracketry, note, the lower radiator hose has a "P" clamp attached to the bracket. This stops the hose from rubbing against the alternator belt. With the bracket removed you lose the mouting point for the clamp. I think it's prudent to fabricate a bracket to support the hose. I made one this evening and I'll post pictures in the coming days.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by Dr Diesel » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 1:36 am

carl888 wrote:
Dr Diesel wrote:"RATIO 1:3.27; ONLY FOR SWEDEN & AUSTRALIA; WITH ANTI-LOCK BRAKING SYSTEM & LIMITED- SLIP DIFFERENTIAL".
Well this is interesting. The limited slip differential was not standard for Australia.
Like an option, of course,
i.e. ratio is 3.27 even with LSD.

:bom:
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Re: 380 SE

Post by Dr Diesel » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 1:47 am

Dr Diesel wrote:
carl888 wrote:Thank you for the vacuum diagram, it will certainly help to improve my German, which is a good thing. I see the distributor is supposed to have two vacuum lines from it, mine has one, I will investigate this. I assumed (Perhaps incorrectly??) that the vacuum arrangement was unique to the Australian cars.
Investigate please. :dontknow:


:read2:
OK, here is the results of the my investigation :book: :

"The vacuum control unit for vacuum advance on ignition distributor is not connected. The vacuum connection is open for connection of unit to atmosphere."
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Re: 380 SE

Post by Dr Diesel » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 2:02 am

Dr Diesel wrote:"The vacuum control unit for vacuum advance on ignition distributor is not connected. The vacuum connection is open for connection of unit to atmosphere."

AUS-version (M116.963, from MY1982).
  • Ignition distributor Bosch: 0 237 405 024.
  • Ignition timing with vacuum at idle: 5* after TDC.
  • Ignition timing w/o vacuum:
    1500/min: 8-12*
    3500/min: 23-27*
  • Vacuum adjustment in direction of:
    "retard" at idle: 9-11*
    "advence" at 3500/min: ---


Standard-version (116.963).
  • Ignition distributor Bosch: 0 237 401 010.
  • Ignition timing with vacuum at idle: 13-19*
  • Ignition timing w/o vacuum:
    1500/min: 11-15*
    3500/min: 25*
  • Vacuum adjustment in direction of:
    "retard" at idle: -
    "advence": 15-17*

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Re: 380 SE

Post by Mercmad » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 12:51 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:
Dr Diesel wrote:
carl888 wrote:Thank you for the vacuum diagram, it will certainly help to improve my German, which is a good thing. I see the distributor is supposed to have two vacuum lines from it, mine has one, I will investigate this. I assumed (Perhaps incorrectly??) that the vacuum arrangement was unique to the Australian cars.
Investigate please. :dontknow:


:read2:
OK, here is the results of the my investigation :book: :

"The vacuum control unit for vacuum advance on ignition distributor is not connected. The vacuum connection is open for connection of unit to atmosphere."
I just read through this meaning to say exactly this. the extra rubber bend is left vented to the atmosphere. If you have the thermo idle control you should have a vacuum switch over valve on the left mudguard. This steps up the idle when the car has the aircon running by advancing the distributor .
My 380 (1980) has the odd size 90mm bore and stroke,M116-961 . Still 3.8 liter but quicker revving than any of the OZ delivered cars. . At 100kph it really steps out and flies when kicked down. Yet it is very economical when driving long distances at 100k's. There's no charcoal canister, Air pump or EGR valve. At 105,000 miles from new I cannot see this car being sold too quickly and i actually bought it to wreck....

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 11:15 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:
Dr Diesel wrote:
carl888 wrote:Thank you for the vacuum diagram, it will certainly help to improve my German, which is a good thing. I see the distributor is supposed to have two vacuum lines from it, mine has one, I will investigate this. I assumed (Perhaps incorrectly??) that the vacuum arrangement was unique to the Australian cars.
Investigate please. :dontknow:


:read2:
OK, here is the results of the my investigation :book: :

"The vacuum control unit for vacuum advance on ignition distributor is not connected. The vacuum connection is open for connection of unit to atmosphere."
Thank you Dr. Diesel.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 11:22 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:
Dr Diesel wrote:"The vacuum control unit for vacuum advance on ignition distributor is not connected. The vacuum connection is open for connection of unit to atmosphere."

AUS-version (M116.963, from MY1982).
  • Ignition distributor Bosch: 0 237 405 024.
  • Ignition timing with vacuum at idle: 5* after TDC.
  • Ignition timing w/o vacuum:
    1500/min: 8-12*
    3500/min: 23-27*
  • Vacuum adjustment in direction of:
    "retard" at idle: 9-11*
    "advence" at 3500/min: ---


Standard-version (116.963).
  • Ignition distributor Bosch: 0 237 401 010.
  • Ignition timing with vacuum at idle: 13-19*
  • Ignition timing w/o vacuum:
    1500/min: 11-15*
    3500/min: 25*
  • Vacuum adjustment in direction of:
    "retard" at idle: -
    "advence": 15-17*

Thanks again Dr. Diesel.

At 1,500 rpm and 3,500rpm for the Australian engines, if the vacuum retard is taken into consideration, then the Australian cars could be a full 9-10 degrees retarded and 5 degrees retarded respectively in 3rd. and 4th. gear in comparison with their European counterparts.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 11:27 pm

"The vacuum control unit for vacuum advance on ignition distributor is not connected. The vacuum connection is open for connection of unit to atmosphere."[/color][/quote]

I just read through this meaning to say exactly this. the extra rubber bend is left vented to the atmosphere. If you have the thermo idle control you should have a vacuum switch over valve on the left mudguard. This steps up the idle when the car has the aircon running by advancing the distributor .
My 380 (1980) has the odd size 90mm bore and stroke,M116-961 . Still 3.8 liter but quicker revving than any of the OZ delivered cars. . At 100kph it really steps out and flies when kicked down. Yet it is very economical when driving long distances at 100k's. There's no charcoal canister, Air pump or EGR valve. At 105,000 miles from new I cannot see this car being sold too quickly and i actually bought it to wreck....[/quote]

Thank you, I cannot see evidence of the thermo idle control for my car, certainly no voltage is at the electrical connection for either of the vacuum switches on the left mud guard when the air conditioning is activated. Remember the Australian cars do not have the advance mechanism connected, so the only way that advance can be affected is by reducing the retard. I cannot see that this is possible with the current arrangment. Can anyone confirm please?

That sounds like a very nice 380 with the revvy early engine. Do you have a picture you could share? A 1980 model is very unusual.

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 11:44 pm

Here are the results of some work today. Today I disabled the vacuum retard, EGR and as you've seen, the air pump. I connected the vacuum line from the intake plenum (The fed the vacuum retard circuit) to the vacuum advance mechanism. The advance mechanism made some groaning noises as it was energised, very funny, being brought back to life after 27 years sleeping.

I then disconnected the vacuum advance again and set the timing at 750rpm to an amazing 10 degrees BTDC. Fuel is 95 RON. I was expecting detonation but an agressive road test revealed none. I was surprised at this figure, however I may have to be careful in warmer weather, it was just 9 degrees when when I did this. I then reconnected the vacuum advance and road tested the car. At 750 rpm with vacuum connected advance was 25 degrees. With the advance connected, the idle is smoother, that is the only difference I can detect so far.

The car is much improved. The throttle repsonse is very quick, it's lost that lazyness that it had before and the mid range flexibility is noticeably better. I am very happy with the performance.

The only issue I have is a very agressive cold idle. For the first two minutes the car will idle at 1,600 rpm, which is too high. If I disconnect the advance mechanism (Making sure the hot idle speed is re-set) it idles nicely at 1,100 rpm when cold, which is where it did before. So I am curious how high the cars with the advance circuit only idled?

I am thinking, it would be very easy to incorporate a 50 degree thermo vacuum valve in the advance circuit to disable it during the warm up phase. In fact, this valve is already in position and not being used (Was for the smog pump). However I do not see any such device in the vacuum circuit for the cars with the advance mechanism, so perhaps I simply have a control pressure imcompatibility as the Australian engine does not expect the advance circuit to be connected. Would anyone care to comment about this cold idle issue?

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Tue 12 Jun, 2012 11:51 pm

The first picture shows the engine as it was originally. You can see the rubber hose that supplied filtered air to the air pump exiting the the RHS of the air cleaner and down past the top of the cam cover to the pump. The following photos should be self explanatory.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: 380 SE

Post by carl888 » Wed 13 Jun, 2012 12:23 am

The poor battery box...............

Image

Image


And I squirted some cavity wax in the area I treated with rust converter.

Image


All back together!

Image

Image

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