seeking info on W114 / 115 wagons - any conversion

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Thu 20 Nov, 2008 9:08 pm

As everyone no doubt knows, M-B built no station wagons (estate cars) until the W123 series. If one wanted a wagon before then, one had it converted from a sedan by a coachbuilder.

Coachbuilders known to have made wagons from M-B sedans include:

Crayford (alone and in conjunction with FLM Panelcraft) (UK)
Binz (Belgium)
IMA (Belgium)
Pollmann (Germany)
Rappold (Germany)
Miesen (Germany)
Harper (Detroit)
Hooper (California)
Cooper & Cooper (Johannesburg).

Of the 15 or so W116 wagons built, I know of eight definitely and five possibly still extant.

The W115/115 series is proving more elusive.

There were more than 400 of these conversions made by Crayford alone; others were made by Miesen and Binz. It is also rumoured that Cooper and Cooper (Jo'burg) built some W114/115s under licence from Crayford.

To date, I've been able to track only two such cars in existence: one Crayford in the UK and another Crayford recently purchased there and exported to Germany for restoration.

If anybody knows of other W114/115 wagons - particularly Crayford, but info on any conversion will do - please contact me via PM here or e-mail to ozbenzhead@internode.on.net.

Visit my Crayford-Benz World site at http://www.crayford-benz.org.

Your help will be much appreciated. :D

Post by **Des** » Thu 20 Nov, 2008 9:53 pm

Dear Gordon

good to have you back with us,
:)
we have missed you Sir!

have you looked at the pictures that are posted here under the 114/5 section?

I have put up a few different wagens,

something to look at anyway.

Kind Regards
Des

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Thu 20 Nov, 2008 10:35 pm

Thanks, Des.

Yes - I have most of those pics, but I might add one of that rather nicely done hearse - particularly the tailgate and D-post treatment: it would have been a better design than the Crayford version (which was, I think, grafted from a BMC Maxi!).

The only one of your pics (that I found, anyway) that was a Crayford was that unfortunately fugly LWB Dachshund. What an abortion!

Post by **Des** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 11:07 am

Do you know which coach builder made these Gordon?

Or this?

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 11:27 am

Des wrote:Do you know which coach builder made these Gordon?

Interesting, Des. :D

The first two pics are of a conversion I've not seen previously -- that kicked-up windowsill line on the rear door is unique, I believe. The combination of that door and the cargo-zone side window are somewhat reminiscent of a Fraud Cortina.

The green wagon going uphill is definitely a Crayford, and is owned by the membership secretary of the Crayford Club, Rory Cronin, with whom I spoke last week.

Thanks for the pics - particularly of the unidentified conversion; another mystery to solve! :D

BTW: My first e-mail for today was from a chap in the UK who owns a W123 St Tropez -- the Crayford ragtop. This is the first one I've come across still in existence, and I've requested photos and details for my registry. Exciting! (Well, unless one has a life outside Crayford-converted Benzes! :roll: )

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 11:31 am

You know, the more I look at that unidentified wagon, the more it looks like a Cortina with a W114 front grafted on.

The entire profile of the car from windscreen back is all wrong for a Benz.

Post by **Des** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 11:43 am

OzBenzHead wrote:You know, the more I look at that unidentified wagon, the more it looks like a Cortina with a W114 front grafted on.

The entire profile of the car from windscreen back is all wrong for a Benz.

Dear Gordon
Do your Linguistic skills reach beyond English? If you can understand German you may be able to find out what is happening in these pictures from here:

http://nast-sonderfahrzeuge.de/MB-Exote ... p?id=24415

Kind Regards
Des

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 11:59 am

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 12:10 pm

Des wrote: Do your Linguistic skills reach beyond English? If you can understand German you may be able to find out what is happening in these pictures from here:
http://nast-sonderfahrzeuge.de/MB-Exote ... p?id=24415
Kind Regards
Des

Des: What that says (poorly translated, no doubt!) is this:

Always a 115 why the T-model rebuild, the way Kombination [= wagon] on an existing 115er E-Class look rebuild there is a very interesting alternative ...

With a Kombination without these "hip movement" in the Window line, there are perhaps would have been even better matched.

BTW: Kombination is the German word from which is derived the short form kombi. It refers to combined uses as a passenger vehicle and goods vehicle.

Doesn't tell us much, I'm afraid.

I shall ask Sebastian (who posts on another forum I'm involved with: the German Classic Mercedes Club forum) what he knows of those pics. (Mind you, S and most of his colleagues on that forum seem to be all p!ss and wind, little substance and even less useful information.)

Post by **Des** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 2:30 pm

Thanks Gordon,

I only understand the basics of German....Achtung, schnell, danken, Auf Wiedersehen
etc...

yeah it is a good forum for pictures though, all different weird and wonderful benzes.

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 2:40 pm

Des: It was actually the German Classic Mercedes Club forum I was referring to, not the Exotics forum (but Sebastian Nast posts on both).

I started learning German a couple of years ago, but got sidetracked and have done nothing with it this year. New Year Resolution: get back into it!

Ich moechte Deutsch lernen aber Ich lerne es sehr langsam. :roll:

Post by **GreaseMonkey** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 6:20 pm

Early seventies Opel Reckord wagon.
Couldn't even be bothered to paint it.
Great to find such a piece of homemade junk though!
Chris M.

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 6:35 pm

GreaseMonkey wrote:Early seventies Opel Reckord wagon.
Couldn't even be bothered to paint it.
Great to find such a piece of homemade junk though!
Chris M.

Thanks, Chris. Mystery solved. :D

Post by **Rufus** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 7:24 pm

The german text says:

...why always convert a W115 into a station wagon, as it may be an interesting alternative to give an existing station wagon a W115 E-class look...;-)

Albeit that a station wagon without the jumping "hip line" would perhaps have been better, more suitable option.

An Opel Rekord wasn't such a bad car. Opel is GM so the German "Holden". The later model Rekord looked like the Commodore.

Found these photos of the Rekord station:

2853205216_6339cd9b2b.jpg

2852372649_aaacafbacc.jpg

The coupe version was a nice looking car in the late 60, it still is I think

oprekc-coupe.jpg

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 7:35 pm

Thanks, Rufus. :D I did warn that my German was, er, sehr schlecht. :roll:

Post by **Des** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 7:48 pm

That last picture reminds me of the HK-HG Monaro, which I think from memory Gordon had a bit of a love affair with.

:D

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 8:15 pm

Des wrote:That last picture reminds me of the HK-HG Monaro, which I think from memory Gordon had a bit of a love affair with. :D

Yup - a very short love affair. Mine was a brand-new HG GTS. Biggest POS I've ever owned. In the first 8,000 km, if it could break, fail, or fall off, it did. A complete lemon - that cost $3700 when a Kingswood cost $2700 (and I was earning about $70 a week). Its immediate predecessor was a Mazda R100 - a far better-built car, even if it couldn't handle the speed and power of its rotary engine. I replaced the Monaro with a 12-year-old Mk I 3-litre P5 Rover. Now that was approaching what a car should be (back then).

Post by **Ivanerrol** » Thu 11 Dec, 2008 9:11 pm

Here's an interesting site, information for Binz conversions for ponton's

http://www.mbzponton.org/pax058/people/variants.htm

Post by **Djenka018** » Sat 24 Jan, 2009 9:42 pm

Dunno if it helps, I've learned driving on 114/115 station wagon with raised roof AND AFAIK, it was Merc built. Actualy, I think that in previous life it was a hersh as it had roof line lower than ambulance.
It had steering coloumn shifter, 4 speed manual

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Sat 24 Jan, 2009 10:34 pm

Djenka018 wrote:Dunno if it helps, I've learned driving on 114/115 station wagon with raised roof AND AFAIK, it was Merc built. Actualy, I think that in previous life it was a hersh as it had roof line lower than ambulance.
It had steering coloumn shifter, 4 speed manual

G'day, Djenka. :D

M-B used to supply part-bodies to a number of coachbuilding specialists to make commercial versions for them: ambulances, wagons, vans, hearses, etc. Builders included IMA (Belgium; they built the "Universal" kombi based on the Heckflosse series W111); Pollmann; Binz; Rappold; and Miesen (all Germany). So it is possible that it was an M-B "original" without the wagon-type body being ex-M-B factory.

There still exists a W116 450SEL 6.9 wagon / estate / kombi that was built by Pollmann, on order direct from M-B, for the then head of MBUSA; it is now owned by John Olsen of SLMarket renown.

To date I know of only three Crayford W114/115 wagons still "alive": one 200D (under restoration in Germany); one 250E in good condition and regularly driven; and the unique Dachshund - a very stretched, and very ugly! - W114 or ~5 (I forget which variant).

Post by **Rufus** » Sat 14 Mar, 2009 8:21 pm

This is a Crawford that i found on the web; doesn't look too bad

crayfordru1.jpg

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Sat 14 Mar, 2009 9:05 pm

Rufus wrote:This is a Crawford that i found on the web; doesn't look too bad

crayfordru1.jpg

Yes - that one is on my website and is believed to be the last standard-wheelbase example in British captivity - belonged for some time to Rory Cronin, Secretary of the Crayford Convertible Car Club; however, Rory has just sold it to Christian Dannert of Germany. Christian acquired a W115 wagon from the UK about a year ago; it is a major restoration project, while Rory's is quite good.

Christian believes - and I have no evidence to the contrary - that he now owns the only two standard-wheelbase W114/~5 wagons in existence. (There remains the one-off Dachshund - a really ugly, stretched W114/~5 wagon, which I believe it still resides in the UK.)

In response to calls posted on many forums, the three W114/~5 wagons mentioned above are the only examples to come to light. The other 400+ that were built must have died of cancer (a very common problem with any W114/~5, and far worse in Crayford conversions. It seems that Crayford never heard of rust prevention.)

There are still quite a few non-Crayford wagons of this series: built by mainland European firms.

Post by **GreaseMonkey** » Sun 15 Mar, 2009 7:34 am

I still don't believe those odds, 3 out of 400, certainly they will have fallen into disrepair, and I well remember W114s rotting quite readily in the UK, but surely there must be a couple more somewhere that got pushed in the back of the shed until one day............
Having said that, I am not a great fan of the design, so I probably would not have gone to any great lengths to save one either.
Chris M.

Post by **John Green** » Sun 15 Mar, 2009 8:52 am

still don't believe those odds, 3 out of 400,

I tend to agree, but I are actually suspicious of the quantity made figure. With 400 made there would be a lot more historical pictures of them around. The only one I know of is the movie shot from step toe and sons.

Gordon, where did that figure come from??

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Sun 15 Mar, 2009 9:25 am

John Green wrote:
still don't believe those odds, 3 out of 400,
I tend to agree, but I are actually suspicious of the quantity made figure. With 400 made there would be a lot more historical pictures of them around. The only one I know of is the movie shot from step toe and sons.

Gordon, where did that figure come from??

I agree that it seems an outrageous non-survival figure, but no others have come to light. I'd have thought perhaps that more of the South African built ones (Hooper and Hooper, Jo'burg) might have survived, but absolutely no evidence of those at all.

The 400 figure was from the Crayford Club magazine, Crayview (which has not always proven itself accurate; one example: in a Crayview there is a photo of an alleged W109 300SEL 6.3 wagon. I have had a couple of exchanges with a chap who swears that car once belonged to his father -- the number plate was identical -- and that it was a 280SE 3.5.) This vehicle (see http://www.crayford-benz.org/Gallery-Ot ... ons.html#8) was allegedly destroyed in a shed fire. This was the claimed fate of the chap's father's 3.5, too. (I've not yet amended the caption to that photo on my site, as I'm hoping for better confirmation.)

If only one could extract the records from Barry P and sort through them for the truth ... .

Post by **GreaseMonkey** » Sun 15 Mar, 2009 9:46 am

If indeed B.P. does have factory records that can confirm figures for these, and W116s of course, then yes, maybe we need to go over there and pay a visit?
BTW, I may have located another W116, not in Aus, a bit far flung and unconfirmed, I will get back to with the full story soon.
Chris M.

Post by **John Green** » Sun 15 Mar, 2009 12:39 pm

When i visited him in 02/08 he told me there were no production data. Do you guys know about the story of when Crayford went under and McMillin fleed to the USA how it all went in a dump master and Barry pulled out what he has in his stash of factory stuff.

Post by **GreaseMonkey** » Sun 15 Mar, 2009 8:23 pm

Well that sounds entirely believable.
So now we just have David Mcmullan's memory to rely on.
Oh well, if no more show up in the next five years, I guess we can say we know what is left.
Chris M.

Post by **Rufus** » Tue 31 Mar, 2009 7:45 pm

I found some interesting wagon conversions. Well, these are hearses actually. German firm Paul Stolle and Pollmann made these conversions I believe. There is a number of W114/W115 hearses for sale on the German eBay. Some of them look fantastic :P

Some photos below

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c824_3.JPG

!BOho8YgBGk~$(KGrHgoH-DcEkJw2KwwWBJvN7BoJsQ~~_12.JPG

557b_12.JPG

2828_3.JPG

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Wed 08 Apr, 2009 9:40 am

This morning I received an update from Christian Dannert, the chap who now owns the only two known surviving /8 Crayford wagons -- a W114 and a W115. He has a registry here: http://www.roststopp.de/strichacht/crayford.htm.

Post by **OzBenzHead** » Sat 11 Apr, 2009 9:14 am

I had an email this morning from Christian and he said I may post some pics here of his W115 220D as he took it for an Easter drive.

Here is his message and a link to his pics on a German /8 forum.

I had a small outing in the 220D Crayford [...] today in fine easter weather, please have a look at the pictures and use/post them in the Ozbenz forum if you like.

http://www.strichacht-forum.de/read.php?1,58433

Post by **GreaseMonkey** » Sat 11 Apr, 2009 10:58 am

That doesn't look so bad in the dark blue, previous examples I have seen never looke3d right, so it shows what difference a colour can make.
He has a lot of work ahead though, see the rust in the C-pillar?
Although, one could say his sheds need more attention!
Chris M.

Post by **Chalda** » Sat 14 Jul, 2012 6:34 am

Hi,

it has been some time since the topic of Crayford estates has been discussed here.

A couple of W116 estates turned up. I am amazed that so many of those conversions survived.

No news however regarding W114/W115 Crayford estates. The LWB 230.6 in GB has been featured in the Mercedes-Benz Enthusiasts Magazine, but thats that. The 220D/8 Crayford is still unrestored, as is the 250/8 Crayford, but the latter at least is able to turn its wheels under its own power from time to time over here in Germany.

Yours, Christian

Post by **Mercmad** » Sat 14 Jul, 2012 6:56 pm

Gordo Ozbenzhead is feeling a lot better now,so perhaps he'll pop up again.

Post by **GreaseMonkey** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 9:24 am

Hi Christian,
good to hear you are still working on your wagons.
Certainly all things Crayford have gone quiet here.
This is the latest news on the Australian W116 wagons, no known W114 or 115 in Australia.
Gordon I believe had problems with his ISP and gave up on his website - a shame as he had done a great job, and it would have been the best way to keep track of known survivors.
I heard his 'RolfWagen' is now with a new owner in Sydney, who may or may not choose to update us of any progress on here, but that one needs a lot of work.
The green 280SE I had is now in Malaysia as Gordon was contacted by a collector who was looking for one, and he passed on my contact info. This person claims his friend (also in Malaysia) has a W109 wagon by Crayford, but has yet to provide any photos.
John Green, as far as I know still has both his blue 280SEL and the 450SE awaiting attention, and the other known Autralian one is that sad 280SE in remote W.A. that turns up on ebay occasionally with no bids. It looks to be trashed and is too far from anywhere to be worth rescuing.
I still miss the old bus though, once I had gone through everything, given it a tune and service and replaced the self-levelling suspension, it was a great car to drive, but hopefully the new owner is making more progress than I did with tidying up the cosmetics.
Chris M.

WAGON.JPG

Post by **Mercmad** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 9:32 pm

The malaysian scene is pretty big and it would not surprise me to hear that a (the) W109 wagon is there. I have posted a pic of it here.

Post by **Mercmad** » Thu 19 Jul, 2012 10:12 pm

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/mercedes ... 26991.html

Post by **MovieMule** » Mon 26 Oct, 2020 4:39 pm

We've had this 1972 220d w115 Chassis # 115.102 for about 10 years or more. I was told it was a Binz conversion and ambulance but that doesn't seem right as the roof is lower than any ambulance I have seen as well as rear seat. Seat fold down for large cargo area but certainly not enough for patient transport. The chassis # indicates it started out in Europe. Can anyone help identify it. I'll post more photos later . I lost my phone which held more.

1972-Mercedes-Benz-220D-Wagon. - 02.jpg

Post by **CraigB** » Mon 26 Oct, 2020 6:11 pm

Great looking car. I agree it doesn't look like an Ambulance and as Gordon indicated in the initial post, they did make wagons. See what info can be found. Thomas on here is busy rebuilding a W114 ute... with a couple of mods!

Post by **T-Modell** » Mon 26 Oct, 2020 6:32 pm

Hi nameless,
I'm pretty sure it's not a Binz as I have imported an Argentine one to Germany. Doesn't look like a Santos either.

You can have a look here: https://forum.mercedesclub.de/index.php ... /&pageNo=3 ... the "vdh-club" here in Germany has a W114/115 station wagon collection (see the pics) and you might contact them. I got the Argentine one for them.

To me it looks like a Miesen Kombi ... see this photo here: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:M ... 7A8059.jpg

Regards
Thomas