OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

190E 2.3-16, 190E 2.5-16, 190E Evolution 1 & 2 models
16v specific information.
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aquaihoi
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OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by aquaihoi » Wed 19 Feb, 2014 12:49 pm

Hi guys,

just got my 3.69 and 3.46 ratio gears from QLD here they are, 3.46 is in a 123 diff ( whole ) : Image, so now I have a ASD diff with 3.07 on the car now, a 16v LSD with a 3.29 which I got from the states sitting there and the two gears, I think there was a post about this with Greg or Brian saying something about speed / diff / tyres - but I can't seem to find the thread - but this is what I would like to do :

I would like to put the 3.27 into the 2.3 16v, in the mean time put 3.69 or 3.46 gears into the ASD diff which I will pull out, I will get the hydro fluid pump and reservoir ( have to source ) and reconnect these back onto the cosy, then put the higher ratio 3.69 or 3.46 ASD diff back into the car or keep it for a 2.5 16.

:read2: :think: :banghead: :think: :read2: :banghead:
Now what I would like to know is, if I increase the diff ratio - I think from memory we can go up to 3.46 ratio and the speedometer would be accurate, but not so sure about the 3.69 - can someone shed some light on this from their experience - I know I would be losing top end speed with the higher ratio drive but thats exactly what I would like - faster acceleration, what would be the calculations, so if a stock diff gives 7.8 secs for 60, what do I get for the faster diff - the ASD setup with the higher diff would also be giving traction and hopefully minimising wheel spin with softish tyres - so from diff swap alone how much time would I be shaving off the sprint ? 3.46 -- 3.69 - I really don't want to mess around with the gear box - yet ! Just trying to " spend the right money in the right things " for now and am just gathering information, I still have suspension to do as well as ITB and ECU upgrade.

Aside from sprint speed, how would this effect my speedometer - how do I maintain my existing speedo with correct speed with the higher diff - will it go out of whack - can I get it recalibrated for the higher ratio, do I need a different speedo cable ? I just have had the speedo all fixed and working and I really don't want ugly digital gps as a speedo - stock speedo is preferred.

Who is a good diff person in melbourne that could do this for me ?

These are the things I need to find out about, thanks in advance for the help !

On a different note what does this smell like : Image . . . no no not for me ( I'm more Ralph Lauren ), for the car interior . . .lol . . . coz the " new car scent pine tree thingy " gives me the sniffles and obviously the interior would smell like . . err . . . mercedes benz . . . see thats what it says on the bottle . . . see :whistle:
Last edited by aquaihoi on Sat 22 Feb, 2014 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by Hendrik » Wed 19 Feb, 2014 1:51 pm

Perhaps buy a new S class, that comes with inbuild scent diffuser?

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by oz coz » Wed 19 Feb, 2014 2:10 pm

[quote][/quote]Hi Aquaihoi,

Could you fill me in a little on your 16v. What is its build date/was it originally an ASD build with a3.07 diff ratio/is it a manual or auto and will it stay a manual or stay an auto? Has it factory air or after-market air or no a/c?
oz coz

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1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by AMG » Wed 19 Feb, 2014 2:55 pm

The 3.69 ratio was used in M104 powered 5 speed automatic 124's, I know this for a fact. not sure of any 201 with that short gearing. I probably posted the info in the diff thread on 190rev if it exists.

the 3.46 was only offered in the Evo from chassis # F723282 - prior to that (up to F723281) it used a 3.27 which means using a different speedo unit in your cluster for each specific ratio for correct reading. That is how MB speedo's work. note the part number in the bottom of the gauge. that will tell you what ratio the car was originally fitted with. different ratio diff, means different speedo part number. 201 542 68 66 for evo1 and 201 542 36 67 for evo 2
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by aquaihoi » Thu 20 Feb, 2014 4:16 am

Hi gang ok - the diff I got from qld is a 1.1 liter from a w123 which was going to be converted with a cosy LSD - so after talking to a friend and asking some questions on 190rev I decided to take a punt - the price was right I suppose for the punt. The gear is 185mm diameter and has a adapter plate - so theoretically you can put the center diff from the cosy into the w123 diff so the reversal should be possible ...


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OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by aquaihoi » Thu 20 Feb, 2014 5:19 am

... OzCoz Brian I presume ? can call me Aldo, ok the cosy I have is a 86 model uk import which I bought off a Stuttgart classics in Adelaide, the diff was off a standard 2.0 190 - no LSD 3.23 I think and we discovered it when we were repairing the back, I would presume that t it was a 3.07 euro diff originally, I tried to find out about it but couldn't, so what I see is what I got.

It's manual ( otherwise I never would have bought it ) , after repearing the rear end I sourced a asd diff with a 3.07 ratio bringing it back up to spec - but sls has been removed, pump has been removed and hydro fluid reservoir- which I will get back sortly. I have also bought another 3.27 diff from the USA, plan was to swap out the asd with the 3.27 diff knock off 0.5 secs off the mark and get stuck into the suspension and handling while also get busy changing ratio gears in the asd to 3.46 / 3.69 etc then swap it with the 3.27 and run some tests - this cosy is becoming my experimentation vehicle, connect the asd system back up just for the diff with the 3.69 / 3.46 and see how it goes ... I will be upgrading to ITB as well with the aim is to get the car into sub 5 seconds off the mark ... Well that is the plan and a 2.5 16 might get the better diff setup - but I am at the stage of getting info on this - I think the 190 they ran at nardo for the world record was fitted with a 3.69 ratio drive, so if all goes well with this experiment I could have theoretically two diffs - 1 x ASD with 3.69 drive and 1 x LSD with either 3.46 or 3.27 - so when I get the next car this bit is done and the one that I want to be crazy or track car gets the better diff - it's just came about this .. . didn't plan it at all the parts came out of no where and it was too good to resist, right place right time sorta thing - figured out compatibility of drive shafts in the process as we'll so will be trawling wreckers for a pair of spares soon


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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by AMG » Thu 20 Feb, 2014 12:33 pm

Don't like your chances of getting a set of ASD driveshafts locally.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by oz coz » Thu 20 Feb, 2014 1:02 pm

Hi Aldo,
Can you look up your VIN and get your exact build date and vehicle specifications. I have a feeling that if your car was a 1986 build then it would more than likely have had a normal 3.07 LSD. In 1987 as I recall ASD was introduced as standard fitting on the 2.3-16.
You seem to have picked up a few bits and pieces for an ASD diff and I cannot see why you would want to go ASD on a car that was not built for it. To adapt a non ASD car to ASD is not exactly a simple task.
Your car has lost its hydraulic pump etc for the rear SLS. Unless you are stuck on having rear SLS, I would stay with a convential setup to go with a normal LSD. So save your dollars for the ITBs.
Joe has told you of the different speedo gears needed if you are going for a low ratio diff.

If you are going to use the car as a road car, these low diffs will drive you nuts. Your gearbox has a 1:1 top gear whilst the M104 motor in an auto W124 had an overdrive top gear to offset the use of a low diff.

I haven't read about the Nardo cars for quite a few years but I can't see it that they would have had a low ratio diff and pretty standard engines yet run at about 250 kph continuously. They did however have both front and rear SLS for aerodynamic reasons.

Let us know what you find on the original build sheet. You have found out just how far some of these cars get stuffed around by poor quality decisions.
oz coz

1986 190E 2.3-16 Blue-Black
1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by aquaihoi » Thu 20 Feb, 2014 10:23 pm

True, I'll check it out when I get home today, yes I know what you mean about stuffing around a good car - true that's why I got the 3.27 to put in straight LSD - the asd diff with the low gears I could use for another car project which is the aim - Dave on here has got the 2.5 16 silver rolling chassis I could play with which was the plan I'll make the 2.3 mint and keep it like it is with the ITB and ecu upgrade - but it's good to swap the diff to see the speed difference in a running car, with Dave's car I'll need two front seats and a 2.5 engine I don't even want to know how much that's going to cost me !


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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by aquaihoi » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 9:58 am

Hi Brian, my vin number is : WDB2010342F193514, I think Supahasan tred to get me details on but couldn't, I tried as well, that dubious site is russia didn't work for me, I also went to the point of trying to get my pommy mate Johnny to see if he could get the details from me from the UK, but as soon as the car is exported out of there they destroy the records, but if you can dig up its history that would be sweet ! I can add it to my folder of receipts and bits on the car.

Image


Image

JoeB wrote:Don't like your chances of getting a set of ASD driveshafts locally.
Ok re the ASD - this is in my car now with a 3.07 ratio, Joe I got the half shafts with the diff - I made certain of that, in the process I also discovered that :

" The CV Half Shaft`s from a 2.6 without asd are the same as the 2.3-16 and the 2.5-Turbodiesel without ASD, the 2.6 ASD Shaft`s are the same as the 2.3/2.5-16 and 2.5-Turbodiesel with ASD. " - so get to the wreckers and start collecting !!

Regarding the 3.69 ratio "In the summer of 1983, the 190E 2.3 16V set out to break as many long distance high speed FIA records as possible at Nardo, Italy. After 202 hours of continuous running, multiple records were broken including the 50,000 km level at an average speed of 248 kph (154mph). Very impressive when you consider they had to stop to refuel, change drivers and service the car while the clock was ticking. During these endurance trials there were some minor aerodynamic modifications including removal of the mirrors and wipers. In addition, a lower rear axle ratio permitted a higher top speed but overall this car was almost stock and reflected well on the entire 190 series. - which I read some where that they did indeed use a 3.69 ratio.

Here is a thread which is discussing it : http://mercedes-190.co.uk/topic/6579313/1/ - they say you could even put in a 3.96 ratio !!! but 3.46 is the best all round one.

The gears I have are apparently super rare as they are to swap out the stock gears in cosy diff then dump the cosy open diff into a W123 diff case - SO - that would mean that I could put the open diff back into the cosy diff case and have a 3.46 or 3.69 diff ratio - the diameter of the gears match . . . but which diff work shop do I go to to do this, I could attempt to do it myself - but I think its better to leave it to the experts !

I will never know unless I try out both gear sets to see drivability - so then I know which one I can use in 2.3 16 ( weekend car ), 2.5 16 go nuts road / race car, just would ike some confirmation or where to go to find this out. Joe I think I will go the autronic ecu - its just more specialised - which means that it is more flexible :-)

Hendrik - one of my favourite rides is the R129 500 / 600 SL - ones bulletproof but guzzles gas, the other one is more refined but with electrical gremlins . . . so I couldn't make up my mind on which one - the new SL's have't grown on me yet except possibly the SLR Stirling moss - but that my friend is a pipe dream ! CLK GTR is my ultimate dream come true - they have a RHD one at the Museum - wonder if I could get them to swap me the RHD for LHD so I can drive it on the road over here :laughing6: - THAT WOULD BE NUTS !
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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by oz coz » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 12:21 pm

I had to go to my "archives" for this information.

The Nardo cars ran final drives of 2.65 to 1 instead of the standard 3.07 to 1, no fan, 160 litre fuel tanks, weight 1345KG, computer optimised to the constant high speed.

This information was published by the MB W201 16V Club e.V. in its February 2008 magazine following its visit to the MB Museum GmbH (My translation/ interpretation of the article is pretty correct). The Nardo cars were the highlights of the visit.
oz coz

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1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by AMG » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 12:33 pm

Here's your datacard, now use the thread in the reference library to decode the 3 digit option codes
WDB2010342F193514.pdf
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Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by scorchi0 » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 1:09 pm

JoeB wrote:Here's your datacard, now use the thread in the reference library to decode the 3 digit option codes
WDB2010342F193514.pdf
Be wary of code definitions. Also, the list in the reference library section is missing many codes. I use the full list from here:
http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~mtor/mbcodedsc.html
EPC is also a bit dodgy for codes as over the years codes have been reused and EPC simply uses the latest definition. Code 822 on my dad's UK delivered 560SEL is a good example, EPC shows it up as SOUTH AFRICA VEHICLES ADDITIONAL PARTS but is it actually OUTPUT INCREASE WITH 560 SEL/SEC.

In EPC, code 467 shows ELECTRONIC DIFFERENTIAL LOCK. However the correct definition for this code, for this car, is CENTRAL LOCKING SYSTEM AND INSTRUMENTS WITH ENGLISH LETTERING.

Code 211 is AUTOMATIC LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIAL (ASD), of which your car doesn't have.

Code 603 is HEADLAMP WIPER UNIT AND OIL FOR REAR AXLE WITH LIMITED-SLIP DIFFERENTIAL, IN CANISTERS AND CONTAINERS so I'd say your car is meant to have a standard LSD (no idea what ratio though).

Trent
1991 S124 300TE - Smoke Silver
1993 C124 320CE - Brilliant Silver
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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by AMG » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 1:27 pm

According to epc the vehicle has a 3.07 ratio
and it's likely that the car has or was originally fitted with ASD - as it has the same option codes as mine - for the most part...

Here's yours:

199 Blue-Black Metallic Paint (Blauschwartz Metallic)
240 outside temperature indicator
341 additional turn signal lamps
362 RHD vehicles as per EC regulations (control code)
410 electric sliding roof with wind deflector
420 4-speed automatic transmission with tempomat
430 headrests in the rear
467 code 461 and 466
461 instrument with mileage reading and English lettering
466 central locking system
507 outside rear view mirror, left and right, heated (left electrically adjustable), R.H.D.
584 electric window lifters (front and rear doors)
593 heat-insulating glass, all-around, heated rear window pane, single-sheet safety
603 HEADLAMP WIPER UNIT, OIL FOR REAR AXLE WITH LIMITED-SLIP DIFFERENTIAL IN CANISTERS AND CONTAINERS
613 head-lamp unit, asymmetrically, L.H. traffic
682 fire extinguisher
876 Rear courtesy light and door contacts
199 Paint code - Blauschwarz (Black Pearl metallic)

071A Cloth, Black


Here's Hermann's:


199 Blue-Black Metallic Paint (Blauschwartz Metallic)
238 Bucket seats
240 outside temperature indicator
241 left front seat electrically adjustable with memory feature
242 right front seat electrically adjustable with memory feature
251 radio MB exquisit, USA (Becker radio mexico cassette, full stereo electronic)
341 additional turn signal lamps
362 RHD vehicles as per EC regulations (control code)
412 electric sliding roof with tilting device
420 4-speed automatic transmission with tempomat
430 headrests in the rear
440 tempomat (cruise control)
467 code 461 and 466
461 instrument with mileage reading and English lettering
466 central locking system
507 outside rear view mirror, left and right, heated (left electrically adjustable), R.H.D.
531 automatic antenna
543 sun visor with vanity mirror, illuminated
551 anti-theft warning system
586 code 580 and 584
580 Behr air conditioner
584 electric window lifters (front and rear doors)
593 heat-insulating glass, all-around, heated rear window pane, single-sheet safety
606 HEADLAMP WIPER UNIT, OIL FOR REAR AXLE WITH LIMITED-SLIP DIFFERENTIAL IN CANISTERS AND CONTAINERS AND MOUNTING FOR CUSTOMS LICENSE PLATE
613 head-lamp unit, asymmetrically, L.H. traffic
682 fire extinguisher
873 Heated Front Seats
876 Rear courtesy light and door contacts
199 Paint code - Blauschwarz (Black Pearl metallic)

271A Leather, Black
271 Instrument panel (knotted walnut veneer)
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by scorchi0 » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 2:11 pm

JoeB wrote:According to epc the vehicle has a 3.07 ratio
and it's likely that the car has or was originally fitted with ASD - as it has the same option codes as mine - for the most part...
But there's no code 211 shown on the datacard. There's also no code for ABS (470), so I assume the diff originally fitted would be 201 350 47 20. How can you tell if its an LSD? Were they all LSDs?

EPC shows that ASD diffs are from chassis numbers F 315279, part number 201 350 83 64.
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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by oz coz » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 2:43 pm

I would have to side with Scorchio on this . This VIN is way too early for ASD. Its build date would be late 1985 or early 1986. My 2.3-16 was built in April 1986 and this car has a VIN well before mine and an engine well before mine.

The differential in mine is stamped with the part number 1243510608. Without looking up the EPC, not sure of the 201 part number.
oz coz

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1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by scorchi0 » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 2:54 pm

oz coz wrote:I would have to side with Scorchio on this . This VIN is way too early for ASD. Its build date would be late 1985 or early 1986. My 2.3-16 was built in April 1986 and this car has a VIN well before mine and an engine well before mine.

The differential in mine is stamped with the part number 1243510608. Without looking up the EPC, not sure of the 201 part number.
The order number for this car (0 6 537 64031) shows that it was ordered in 1986. Also, for reference the 537 means it was delivered to the UK.

124 351 06 08 is the part number for the end cover on the diff, it will be common to all of them I'd imagine.
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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by AMG » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 3:04 pm

scorchi0 wrote:
JoeB wrote:Here's your datacard, now use the thread in the reference library to decode the 3 digit option codes
WDB2010342F193514.pdf
Be wary of code definitions. Also, the list in the reference library section is missing many codes. I use the full list from here:
http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~mtor/mbcodedsc.html
EPC is also a bit dodgy for codes as over the years codes have been reused and EPC simply uses the latest definition.
Trent
Hi Trent,

- check the thread in the reference library, you will notice the link you mention is present at the bottom of the thread - it has been there for quite some time. The thread post was edited in september last year when the new russian VIN site was added at the bottom.

Yes, all 201.034/35/36 vehicles are LSD. ASD is an LSD diff also remember - it just has the additional electro-hydraulic locking mechanism.

The 201 printed manual will tell you this. It will also tell you that the ratio is 3.27:1. It doesn't mention the 3.07 ratio at all.

It's worth noting - The 2.3-16 and 2.5-16 vehicles have many anomalies which are not in accordance with, nor covered by the EPC, and for RHD euro spec vehicles you really need to refer to the original factory manual supplements - particularly the German printed versions, which starts with the model 201 manual (which is accurate, partially), the updates for all 16v models - the ASD manual, 2.3-16 supplement and the 2.5-16 / evolution supplements, as I and other 16v owners have found also, that the EPC/ WIS is not 100% accurate in terms of location of many vehicle items, especially on the Euro specification RHD 16v cars.
The English manuals for the most part, are all carrying specification and location information pertaining to the low compression USA market versions. These are also what appear in the WIS / EPC.

It's similar to what you quoted for the AMG badge location in that TE thread for the 124's the other day. If you believe the EPC to be 100% accurate... as an example, that document is a 2007 WIS revision, and does not pertain to the original B code reference for the kits, as they were produced between 1990-2. It's actually the document for the post-merger revised kits for US market from 1994-5. the printed documentation that comes with the gen 1 B code options pre dates the WIS information and does not actually relate to the same option code, they just put one document in the WIS and expect it to cover everything. - the 16v cars and the pre-merger AMG vehicles are just like that... full of surprises and not perfectly accurately documented. It's a case of the WIS having 'some' documentation, and being accurate for a specific english speaking market (USA). In many ways, the WIS and EPC can be proven to not be perfectly accurate. The problem is not really lack of accuracy - as every catalogue and manual can contain the odd mistake - it's just that in the case of the 16v, there are SO MANY anomalies.... and noone documented them with the typical technical accuracy we have all come to expect from germany.

The exception to this are the limited production Evolution spec models. These are VERY well documented, and the part numbers and chassis cutovers are from all accounts dead-accurate. Possibly because it was produced much much later in the model variant line-up, and the evo models were high-spec, given very individual attention on the production line.

Things that differ which are not documented for example, the RHD factory alarm unit location, the location of the tempomat control unit, auxillary fuses, certain fuses & relays, e.g. electric seats-, air conditioning (afterthought) some overlap in part numbers for ignition modules & distributors, some engine internals where the engine production number is close to the MY mechanical update cutoff chassis numbers and a bunch of Euro vs USA parts which were used on cars seemingly without any care or attention paid to the actual chassis number.

Cutover numbers on footnotes in the EPC for 201.034 /035 are very loosely interpreted, and if you have an engine for example which is on a production number cutover, and for example, the vehicle was assembled in Bremen, then you would likely want to physically check the part number on the existing part, before replacing it - contrary to what the EPC's real purpose is for... alleviating this need to physically identify parts before replacing. The EPC & WIS are only a framework to be loosely interpreted in the case of these vehicles. Again, except the 036 - which seems to fit perfectly with all footnotes. I think this is because the 036 was a high-value special model variant - all of them were LHD, with a huge number of vehicle-specific parts, not just the 'bolt on' externally visible body pieces.

In many cases, it seems quite absurd. For example: I have the original EZL unit on my 16v which has a part number which was retired several years before my vehicle was manufactured. I bought a spare unit with the correct EPC part number, and it changed the vehicles behaviour - for the worse. Correct superceeded part number, but designed for a set of revised 2.3-16 cams, again, my car having a different set of camshaft part numbers. Bought another (rather found a matching old unit with exact same part number - from a 2.5-16 no less! ) and car is back to normal. No idea why that unit was fitted to the 2.5-16, and no way to verify if it was there from original, except that when I removed said unit, the nuts looked like they had never been touched, the zinc heatsink paste was there and dry, as if it had never been removed. Unit was a siemens unit, which suggested early production also - as later revised ones are bosch - except on Evo 2...
0309.jpg

The bottom line is that for the 16v models, nothing is 100% accurate, and the only true way to determine what is correct is to physically investigate if the parts have been serviced or replaced in the vehicles life.

I have spent hundreds of hours checking and validating tiny details, as have other owners here on their own 16v cars (and we've all checked out each others in great detail also) and the differences even between identical cars is astounding. There simply is no hard and fast rule when it comes to the 16v - despite the guidance of the EPC and the 'authority' it carries.

It is the usual story of a vehicle manufacturer doing a low volume model run - exhausting stock of certain parts, until a revised/superceeded part number replaces it. Obviously these low volume production parts simply do not all run out at the same time, so naturally certain part numbers can differ in series production by several numbers. It also means one has to know exactly what is being removed and what it is being replaced with.

camshafts, exhaust headers, EZL's, idler sprockets, timing covers, temperature senders, water pumps, the list goes on and on.. And while some are directly sourced from the high volume production runs, many are model designation specific, and this is where the confusion, and incorrect replacement of model specific parts can occur.

The only way to honestly confirm if the car had ASD from factory is to remove the instrument cluster and check if the screws have been tampered with. If they haven't and the speedo has the ASD warning light in it, then it's likely the car came fitted with it. Otherwise, there would be no ASD speedo fitted to the car. The option code for ASD is not always present, and depending on the destination market, the 603/606 code is applied.

From the data card, one can determine the destination market - 603 a RHD euro destination (english) and 606 a euro spec RHD 'customs' delivery (Japan). I only discovered this anomaly when investigating what the 'mounting for customs license plate' meant. Makes no difference really - the vehicle spec is the same euro spec, regardless of destination market. One thing of note however, is the radiator on my vehicle. It is not the 'english' version, which is very small in comparison. It may also have a lot to do with the vehicle having factory A/C. Again, the individual SA numbers do not specifically show this. I thought for years my car was english...

makes no difference anyway. We've seen some really weird EPC versus chassis numbers occur before - like the 129 that recently came into MB Spares with a LHD VIN and being delivered new to Singapore (via Japan) yet the car is RHD from the factory. Wouldn't have thought Cycle & Carriage would have let that one slip through, but there you have it.... the proverbial happens.

The thing that is dubious is the maintenance history of Aldo's car. It's going to take him ages to validate every single original part, identify which hasn't been replaced or tampered with, and that only comes through removal & checking of individual components systematically from front to rear.

If Aldo comes back and says no ASD speedo, then obviously, I would not be correct in my earlier statement saying it was 'likely' his car came with ASD. Obviously. But time and time again I have proven the EPC is wrong when investigating my own car, and now I just take everything it says regarding the 201034 with a grain of salt. I check my own part number against the EPC number. For the most part it's accurate. But in many instances it has not been - and that has cause many problems when ordering parts.

I don't envy him.
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Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by scorchi0 » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 3:26 pm

Cheers Joe, you make a lot of sense.

I've come across EPC anomalies before, just didn't realise it was so prolific for 201 16Vs. Makes sense since they were a low production variant.

Interesting that you said the printed manuals don't mention a 3.07 diff and EPC lists only a 3.07 for early cars!

Trent
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1993 C124 320CE - Brilliant Silver
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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by AMG » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 3:36 pm

Want me to take a pic to prove it?

Trust me, I couldn't believe it when I saw it, knowing full well that my car has a 3.07 in it. (and ASD but not ASD on the datacard)

It's complete bollocks, I can assure you. I don't want to come over all high & mighty about it - I've learned the hard way quoting EPC and finding myself to be completely wrong before.

Rather, I hope this serves as an example to those who own the lower volume production variants.... special model runs, amg cars, even pre 1995 wagons seem to suffer - so we've seen recently.

c36 is another which comes to mind - on the post-merger borderline. loads of good wis info and plenty of missing data in the EPC.


was it Ned Kelly who originally proclaimed "such is life" ?? or perhaps someone else....
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by scorchi0 » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 3:55 pm

JoeB wrote:Want me to take a pic to prove it?

Trust me, I couldn't believe it when I saw it, knowing full well that my car has a 3.07 in it. (and ASD but not ASD on the datacard)
Oh I believe you! EPC/WIS is fantastic for what it is, but as you say it's not perfect. I can imagine the job of transferring the info from paper manuals and microfiche when the EPC was first released was immense and not everything was done thoroughly.
JoeB wrote:It's complete bollocks, I can assure you. I don't want to come over all high & mighty about it - I've learned the hard way quoting EPC and finding myself to be completely wrong before.

Rather, I hope this serves as an example to those who own the lower volume production variants.... special model runs, amg cars, even pre 1995 wagons seem to suffer - so we've seen recently.
:occasion5:
1991 S124 300TE - Smoke Silver
1993 C124 320CE - Brilliant Silver
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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by Greg in Oz » Fri 21 Feb, 2014 4:45 pm

It's not just the EPC and WIS that can get it wrong. I know from personal experience that data cards can be incorrect as well. My white 1990 190E 2.3 is an example.

The data card correctly shows the car as being a 201.028 with a 102.985 engine (190E 2.3) fitted with a 5 speed manual transmission. It also correctly states Sportline package including sports seats, steering wheel, suspension, wheels and tyres. All the other options are also as listed on the data card. The card also correctly states the colour as Arctic White however it incorrectly shows the seats as being blue fabric when they are in fact blue leather. I'm not even sure that blue fabric was available for the Sportline seats. These seats are essentially the same 4 bucket setup as in the 16 valve models and were usually available in either the black & grey fabric or black leather. Obviously they could be supplied in blue leather as in addition to mine I have also looked at a white 2.6 Sportline with blue leather (if I had my time over I would buy that one) however I doubt that the "sport" fabric was available in anything other than the black & grey combination.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by AMG » Sat 22 Feb, 2014 1:49 pm

So I guess we can reliably say that 'German precision' is an oxymoron?
:laughing6:
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by aquaihoi » Sun 23 Feb, 2014 7:43 pm

Woah thats a lot of info ! Thanks Guys ! would the epc error also mean the gearbox being manual or auto ?
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190e 2.3 16 - Lil Hammer'
( It's like ' Lil Bastard ' but better )

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by AMG » Sun 23 Feb, 2014 8:49 pm

Highly unlikely.

the engine serial number and gearbox serial number are put into the datacard as a requirement for chassis identification. smaller ancillaries and vehicle components aren't.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by Dr Diesel » Mon 24 Feb, 2014 1:48 am

aquaihoi wrote:Hi Brian, my vin number is : WDB2010342F193514

Ok re the ASD - this is in my car now with a 3.07 ratio
Excuse me, has this car an ASD or not? :wave:
Accordingly to the VIN this car has 3.07 LSD (w/o ABS and ASD). :read2:
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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by Dr Diesel » Mon 24 Feb, 2014 2:07 am

scorchi0 wrote:But there's no code 211 shown on the datacard.
The data-card of the all 201.034's do not contains code 211 (ASD) or 256 (LSD), because it is a standard, not special, equipment.
N.B. But, not in all cases the data-card not contains codes for standard equipment, for example code 620 or some other.

Ciao! :king:
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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by Dr Diesel » Mon 24 Feb, 2014 2:29 am

Greg in Oz wrote:It's not just the EPC and WIS that can get it wrong. I know from personal experience that data cards can be incorrect as well. My white 1990 190E 2.3 is an example.
Excuse me, can you send me the VIN or option list (+ upholstery code) here or via PM?
Greg in Oz wrote:I doubt that the "sport" fabric was available in anything other than the black & grey combination.
The sports seats (codes 243 or 244) was available (except 16V-models):
in 2 colors for cloth/leather - black and blue
and in 2 colors (+ 2 colors from approx. 1990) for leather and cloth "Karo" - black, blue and creme, gray
and in 3 materials - cloth+leather (3 patterns), leather, cloth "Karo" (german for "Rhombus")


:spam1:
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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by aquaihoi » Tue 04 Mar, 2014 8:56 pm

oz coz wrote:I had to go to my "archives" for this information.

The Nardo cars ran final drives of 2.65 to 1 instead of the standard 3.07 to 1, no fan, 160 litre fuel tanks, weight 1345KG, computer optimised to the constant high speed.

This information was published by the MB W201 16V Club e.V. in its February 2008 magazine following its visit to the MB Museum GmbH (My translation/ interpretation of the article is pretty correct). The Nardo cars were the highlights of the visit.


Ahhhhaaa . . . that makes more sense, lower gearing for higher top end speed.
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Benzina®. Burn it Up !
http://www.benzina.com.au

190e 2.3 16 - Lil Hammer'
( It's like ' Lil Bastard ' but better )

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Re: OK ! got a 3.69 + 3.46 ratio gears what next . . .

Post by Greg in Oz » Tue 04 Mar, 2014 9:27 pm

aquaihoi wrote:
oz coz wrote:I had to go to my "archives" for this information.

The Nardo cars ran final drives of 2.65 to 1 instead of the standard 3.07 to 1, no fan, 160 litre fuel tanks, weight 1345KG, computer optimised to the constant high speed.

This information was published by the MB W201 16V Club e.V. in its February 2008 magazine following its visit to the MB Museum GmbH (My translation/ interpretation of the article is pretty correct). The Nardo cars were the highlights of the visit.


Ahhhhaaa . . . that makes more sense, lower gearing for higher top end speed.
A 3.07 is actually lower gearing than a 2.65 because lower gearing refers to greater reduction through the gear train for lower speed (and greater torque). Sometimes the term "shorter" gearing is used for lower gearing and "taller" gearing for higher gearing.

The same applies for a gearbox (or auto transmission) as for a diff. A four speed transmission may have a ratio of something around 3.5:1 for its "low" gear or first gear and a direct (1:1) ratio for its "top" gear. A 5 speed may have a "taller" ratio of around 0.8:1 for its "overdrive" top gear.

Combining say a 3.07:1 diff with 5 speed transmission with a first gear of 3.5:1 and a top gear of 0.8:1 will result in overall gearing ratios between the engine and driven wheels of 10.745:1 in 1st gear and 2.456:1 in 5th gear.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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