kugelfischer . . . ok who do I speak to about this ?

190E 2.3-16, 190E 2.5-16, 190E Evolution 1 & 2 models
16v specific information.
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kugelfischer . . . ok who do I speak to about this ?

Post by aquaihoi » Thu 17 Jun, 2010 4:01 pm

Any one got ANY info on the kugelfischer injection system for a 190e cosy ? I have emailed people in the states and there is pretty much nothing available on the net aside from " they are expensive and rare " - ok how expensive and nothing is " too rare " you can find one eventually . . . any one got a part number or something if one were to search in Germany ?

I mean if I'm gonna double the power by replacing the fuel injection system and changing valves and cams - that's not really expensive at all yes ? Happy without forced induction yes.

Hello . . . anyone . . . anything . . . hello . . .
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Re: kugelfischer . . . ok who do I speak to about this ?

Post by John Green » Thu 17 Jun, 2010 5:52 pm

Ummm, is that a huge typo?? Kugelfischer injection is from the 70's!
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Re: kugelfischer . . . ok who do I speak to about this ?

Post by aquaihoi » Thu 17 Jun, 2010 11:54 pm

Hi John,

no I have been reading waaayyyy too much on juicing the most power out of a 190e without turbo charging it. This is apparently the fuel injection system used by the DTM spec 190e - so naturally I would like one to see what the fuss is all about. Apparently it almost doubles the Hp of the 190e 2.3 by bolting one of these on and replacing the valves in the head without a complete rebuild.

There's heaps of info on these systems for BMW 2000 ti, Peugots and Alpha's but nothing on the Merc 190e - all it says is " the road version useses the Bosch injectors instead of the race version " kugelfischer " - so I started to read and read and read, so I know it's a derivative of a diesel pump / injector for gasoline motors and it is a very high pressure application, purely mechanical system that is timed to compress fuel and oxygen mixture on engine cycle top dead centre for maximum efficiency and combustion - hence higher power yield. Sorta like forced induction but not. Ok. I understand some what. Sounds complicated.

Lucky for me I was talking to one of my mates about it today and I will go and speak to a guy called Peter from Thornbury carburettors in Melbourne who specialises in old school injection systems for street and race apps for the above mentioned cars and webber systems for old ferraris and the like. I'll see what develops from that hey. Let eveyyone know if I find out some juicy stuff.

Yep. The old technology is sometimes the best technology, just like old music. I am a hybrid gen x / y .
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Re: kugelfischer . . . ok who do I speak to about this ?

Post by John Green » Fri 18 Jun, 2010 9:03 am

See you do learn something every day!!! Did a little reading, but could not find the "double" the power claim?? According to Wiki:

The roadgoing version of the engine was reconfigured with reduced inlet and exhaust port sizes, different camshaft profiles, no dry sump configuration and Bosch K-jetronic replacing the specialised Kugelfischer fuel injection.

So just bolting on the Kugelfischer pump is most likly only a fraction of the work required to make one of these go hard. Also if a stock 2.3 made 136kw then double is 272kw which is quite a bit. The rare AMG version of the 2.5lt variant only made 165kw.... and the Evo 2 173kw...
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Re: kugelfischer . . . ok who do I speak to about this ?

Post by aquaihoi » Fri 24 Aug, 2012 11:08 pm

hmm . . . got kind lost there for a while and had to find my bearings ( lost / forgot my details ) forgot I had this account, busy busy busy . . . err yes, the doubling the power thing, its kinda like the story of the fish that got away, every second person who tells it, adds a couple'O "'s until the thing is the size of moby dick himself !

Though in all seriousness, I wouldn't mind dropping a 3.0 + or if i really wanted to get crazy 5.0 into a 190e body, just the priceless expression of peoples faces when you blip that throttle a little is enough of an encouragement . . . but I have been told I would need some serious investment in the braking department, its all well and good to get going really, really fast, but there is the stopping, and suspension and a whole bunch of other engineering technical feats to get right . . . but I do love a good challenge and a good laugh along the way.posting.php?mode=reply&f=3&t=10599#
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Re: kugelfischer . . . ok who do I speak to about this ?

Post by AMG » Sat 25 Aug, 2012 12:15 pm

There are a couple of guys who really know their stuff when it comes to these engines - however they are not located near you.

The guy who built my engine was responsible for many engine builds for 2.3 & 2.5 16 v engines in the race cars campaigned here locally and overseas.

He doesn't advertise, nor does he muck around. he also doesn't share the secrets, which is why he's still in demand.

If you are serious, then we can put you in touch, but make sure your money is where your mouth is, or he'll tell you where to go.

He's a perfectionist, and you leave him alone to do his job. when you get the finished article it's exactly what you asked for.


just so you know - the DTM engines were built to a spec, and they had a lifespan of 1.5 hours between rebuilds.

Mind you they could hit 12,500rpm.

So I think you might need to be a little more realistic about your goals. 350hp is achievable in NA form, reliably.

any more than that and you need to put some forced induction on it.

An alternative is DIY.

talk to Thorsten Stadler http://190teile.de/Aktuelles_Flachschieber_e.html

see how you go.

forget the kugelfischer.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: kugelfischer . . . ok who do I speak to about this ?

Post by ONE90E » Sun 23 Sep, 2012 11:20 pm

Hi aldo,

Been trying to send you some pm's but doesnt seem to be going through.

Ive still got that mosselman turbo setup still forsale and i'm also from reservoir.

Let me know if your still interested.

Thanks Dave.
2.5 16v Turbo = Fun times

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Re: kugelfischer . . . ok who do I speak to about this ?

Post by eric78 » Sat 16 Feb, 2013 8:05 pm

Didn't Kugelfischer make only mechanical injection systems?

Actually until now I thought they only did diesel stuff, either way they no longer exist, the most recent thing I can think of that had Kugelfischer injection was a Peugeot 505 diesel.

Edit: Oh, I see looking at the other posts that the system on that race engine was based on a diesel pump.

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Re: kugelfischer . . . ok who do I speak to about this ?

Post by AMG » Sun 17 Feb, 2013 11:15 am

Yes, and there is good logic in the reason for use. Extremely high pressure producing excellent atomization of the fuel, which increases power and combustion efficiency. Much the same as the direct injection engines of today (although todays engines have a very smart electronic control system for the injection valves)

In the day, it wasn't really useful on a car that was not being driven on a racetrack. Slidethrottles and short inlet manifolds and high pressure fuel injection all required LOTS of rpm's to function in synergy. There is simply no way you could drive one of these on the street, let alone get it past roadworthy checks :laughing6:

However, for a racecar restoration project which requires authenticity, the retrofit would make sense.... if you could find an original injection setup.

Compared to the current EFI retrofit system offerings available to suit petrol engines, even a dirt cheap aftermarket system has more simplicity, tuning flexibility and usability than a kugelfischer setup.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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