AMG M117 DOHC 32V

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AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by 48hp » Tue 20 Sep, 2011 6:54 am

Hello,

Does anyone have information on the evolution of the AMG M117 DOHC 32v engine?

I've recently acquired a very early version and I have noticed some differences between it and the later DOHC models. Two distinct differences are the external oil return lines and valve cover breathers. The early DOHC engine has external tubular oil return lines at each cylinder head and the later models have a cast flange and single line return. This engine also has a cast internal breather at each valve cover. The later version received a crude channel modification and later yet, a cast breather. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by AMG » Tue 20 Sep, 2011 3:28 pm

Henric,
AFAIK, the camshafts on later models had an increased outer shaft diameter as they early ones (24mm) were prone to snapping (oil gallery in cam front journal similar to the 2.3-16 / 2.5-16) behind the cam sprocket.

Apart from the differences you have mentioned already this is all I am aware of. Speaking to John Hodgman may help you in searching or more info.
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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by 48hp » Wed 21 Sep, 2011 4:47 am

Hello JoeB,

Thanks for the reply. I've been in contact with Mr. Hodgman and there was mention that the early narrow cam journals were less reliable. What is not known at this time are the reasons AMG made the changes mentioned above.

Meanwhile, Mr Hodgman will see if his contact Mr Feyhl at Renntech might help answer some of these.

Cheers,

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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by Mercmad » Wed 21 Sep, 2011 11:22 am

have you asked Talbir Bains? He has had a lot experience with the conversion engine in the past.

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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by 48hp » Wed 21 Sep, 2011 4:25 pm

Talbir installed this same early dohc model into his converted coupe. IIRC he merely pulled it from one vehicle and plopped into another without tearing into it. I've posted on the MB Club UK site as well. We'll see if he chimes in. :occasion5:

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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by 48hp » Fri 04 Jan, 2013 3:34 am

During the past year, since taking possession of the AMG DOHC 4V heads and engine, I have spent a considerable amount of time on research.

This particular example was pulled and disassembled over a decade ago. At the time, the heads were sent out for machining but were never completed and many of the valve train bits went missing.

Assuming that the DOHC 4V heads would check out to be sound, I continued to search far and wide for the missing bits and additional reference materials. One gentleman in Germany, Jörg, reached out and provided me with samples and reference materials for each of the missing bits, which could be used to reproduce the bits if needed. I chose to hold out, as I was still confident that the originals could be located that of which included intake and exhaust valves, valve springs, cups and retainers.

There was one potential resource that I had overlooked here, stateside, Mr. Hartmut Feyhl at Renntech. For those not familiar, he was the lead tech/engineer at AMG North America prior to AMG merging with Mercedes Benz and was responsible for all of the authorized DOHC 4V installations in the U.S. during that time. He later formed Renntech and completed a number of AMG DOHC installation there and continues to produce and engineer products for contemporary Mercedes Benz models today.

As a pleasant surprise, not only did he provide the missing pieces, but Mr. Feyhl also took the time to share his invaluable experience with the DOHC engines. The bits arrived last month and work could begin on the heads and block.

Everything was sent off to Motor Works near San Diego, CA, where Sergio Bartolino, who had work with these back in the day, began taking inventory, disassembling, cleaning and inspecting. The short block was stripped and proved to be reflective of the low mileage claimed by the previous owner. There was some scoring in one of the cylinders, but everything else in/on the short block passed inspection.

One of the valve seats was suspect and was replaced. Also, the valve guides installed previously were not only incorrect but not properly installed, thus they were removed and replaced.

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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by kimrh » Fri 04 Jan, 2013 12:22 pm

Henric you will now have a choice of two freshly rebuilt engines to swap into the widebody at some point in time (the AMG spec 5.4ltr and this new project)
It would be very interesting to read how you are going to tackle all the original issues with these heads (leaking, cams snapping etc) to come up with a modern day workaround to address those issues as you progress with the build (more pics as well would be great)
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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by 48hp » Sat 05 Jan, 2013 4:18 am

kimrh wrote:Henric you will now have a choice of two freshly rebuilt engines to swap into the widebody at some point in time (the AMG spec 5.4ltr and this new project)
It would be very interesting to read how you are going to tackle all the original issues with these heads (leaking, cams snapping etc) to come up with a modern day workaround to address those issues as you progress with the build (more pics as well would be great)
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s- ... pened.html
The M117 DOHC 4V motor does have a speckled history indeed, some truth and some misinformed internet heresay.

The 4V cams continued to be developed over the years until end of production, both in profile and cam journal diameter. . According to Hartmut Feyhl of Renntech, it was the earliest examples that experienced catastrophic failure due to cam journal diameter and oil passage design. The original cams measured 24mm in diameter and the oil passages were drilled straight through the cam's shaft. This and in conjunction with the smaller diameter, caused a weak point and was corrected almost immediately as orders for the 4V were in jeopardy. The oiling passages were now offset and the cam journal diameter was increased.

The most detrimental "leaking" what actually internal and most external leaks can be attributed to inferior sealing/sealants of the day. Many of these external issues can be addressed with modern gasket/sealant materials. It was the actual casting of the 3pc heads that proved at fault with the internal leaking issues. Sergio Bartolini of Motor Works mentioned that on a few examples he had actually found seepage thru the walls of the head between the coolant and oil passages. This too can be remedied by impregnating the porous casting.

All things considered, these 4V engines were the pinnacle of independent AMG engineering. They were never completely refined but they are a significant importance to the history of the marque. If there is 5-10% chance of failure as Mr Feyhl approximated, consider me a gambling man. :)

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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by kimrh » Sun 06 Jan, 2013 2:46 pm

If you are a gambling man then would this project take it to the pinnacle 6ltr 32v build as Jono suggests or keep the block bores as-is (i assume its going to be a 5ltr 32v)
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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by 48hp » Sun 06 Jan, 2013 3:42 pm

kimrh wrote:If you are a gambling man then would this project take it to the pinnacle 6ltr 32v build as Jono suggests or keep the block bores as-is (i assume its going to be a 5ltr 32v)
I'll keep it as delivered, five point oh.

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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by kimrh » Sun 06 Jan, 2013 5:57 pm

The 5 Ltr crank is a smooth/sweet revving beast anyway and the 32V heads will improve torque which is what you want "and the complementary raw beastly gutteral sound effects" -
yes bring it on Henry
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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by 48hp » Thu 10 Jan, 2013 5:43 am

kimrh wrote:The 5 Ltr crank is a smooth/sweet revving beast anyway and the 32V heads will improve torque which is what you want "and the complementary raw beastly gutteral sound effects" -
yes bring it on Henry
Most importantly, it is as delivered. Not attempting to build a bigger, meaner or faster 32V here. Rather, preserve a piece of AMG history and mate it to an equally well represented example.

Not to mention the absorbent cost of 6 litre conversion, upwards of $10k+. The $ to hp doesn't make any sense.

5L DOHC = 340hp
5.6 DOHC = 360hp
6L DOHC = 375hp(US) - 385hp

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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by 48hp » Thu 06 Jun, 2013 4:14 am

a bit of progress...
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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by kimrh » Fri 25 Jul, 2014 2:50 am

I see Henric in LA has had some more progress 1 year later by his local LA based engine builder (Sergio -Owner of Motor Works) on his 5litre 32v project
The original AMG 5litre block to these heads was recovered and torn down and rebuilt.
The heads with missing parts (lay around in a workshop for 10yrs) were slowly pieced together with the missing parts sourced from around the globe.
The heads are now bolted down to the block and his builder is on the homeward stretch.

Out of interest sake here are 3 short video clips in sequence of Jono in Atlanta (MB aftermarket service workshop owner) test driving a 6ltre 32v after servicing it - just to show the sound those 32v heads make under power - great very distinct and very brutal gutteral sound!!! turn your volume up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRNfzYS ... ekTr1DFKqg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr4tRby ... ekTr1DFKqg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohxsSef ... ekTr1DFKqg

There are "very few" of these 32v engines lurking around anywhere in Australia
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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by McGavin » Fri 25 Jul, 2014 11:04 am

Seeing Hendric's car in the flesh has been added to my 'bucket list'. ;)

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Re: AMG M117 DOHC 32V

Post by John Green » Fri 25 Jul, 2014 1:53 pm

Same picture as above started doing the rounds on Facebook yesterday..

https://www.facebook.com/20779876597589 ... =1&theater

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