The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

1986-1995 : 200TD, 200CE, E200, 260E, 300E 2.6, 300E 2.8, 300E, E320, 400E, E420, 500E, E500, 300CE, E320, 230TE, 300TE, 300D 2.5 TURBO, E300 DIESEL, 300TD, 300E 4MATIC, 300TE 4MATIC, E36 AMG
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PeterKathy
S Class
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat 02 Oct, 2010 7:11 pm
Model you own: w124

The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

Post by PeterKathy » Sat 27 Feb, 2016 9:22 am

Over the past 3 years I have been posting on the forum a variety of issues relating to the performance of the
M104.980 Engine in my 300e 24. The range from Idle ranging up and down,
Fuel starving indications, Surging Engine, No power at the lights when Engine warms up,
Stalling on full lock when parking, Weird happenings with the engine at 60 degrees,
then at 80 degrees, Rotor button overheating, Distributor caps failing early,
I replaced
Idle Control Unit,Fuel Pumps, Fuel Filters, Injectors, Injector Seals, Leads, Plugs, Coil,
Temperature Sensors, Clutch Fans, Thermostat, Several Vacuum hoses,
and then finally.....
after breaking down in Nowra, A young NRMA Mechanic noticed a quiet cracking sound
coming from the distributor. It appeared to coincide with the miss in the Engine!
A picture explains a thousand issues!
Closeup 1.jpg
and
closeup 2.jpg
The photos are of the Suppression Plate that sits between the rotor and the camshaft.
The 2 black circles I added shows where the initial points started.
Removed Suppresion Plate.jpg
The whole issue may have started quite sometime ago when I had a carwash.
During one time of replacing the distributor cap, I noticed the rubber seal had all but
perished. Water may have ingress-ed, and had the right conditions for a arc breakthrough.
I have replaced the cap with 2nd hand one, and am in the process of getting a brand new one.
I hope that this fix will help a lot for others!
Baroness von Blau now has ALL of her pickup back! :) :) :)
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MercMad West Australian
450 SEL 6.9
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Re: The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

Post by MercMad West Australian » Sat 27 Feb, 2016 9:35 am

Very interesting.

I think as preventative maintenance I will buy a new one to replace mine as it is original from 1990.
MMWA

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Ivanerrol
Mercedes Demigod
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Model you own: w204
Location: Melbourne

Re: The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

Post by Ivanerrol » Sat 27 Feb, 2016 10:09 am

In 99.9% of Benz's with a distributor I would suspect the suppression plate or it's rubber gasket have never been changed.
Probably leads and cap have been changed but never the plate.

An electrical circuit will always choose the path of least resistance.
The ignition spark can be likened to a bolt of lightning - it will always ground to the least resistive path to earth.
The spark coming from the rotor button will always short to earth through the suppressor plate if there is convenient exit rather than go through a resistive path to the spark plug.

This is why it's very frustrating to suss out. You may think that one cylinder is misfiring, you change the lead, plug cap etc when the real problem is that there is a path to earth through the suppressor cap
which is close to the point where the rotor button spark hits the terminal for the misfiring cylinder.

Of all the misfiring cylinder threads in all sorts of Benz forums I wonder how many were directly related to the suppressor plate.
W211 - E240
W204 - C280
W202 - C180
W210 - E240
Departed
W202 - C200
W202 - C180 - On consignment to nephew
W126 - 380SE , 380SE (Ex SA Import), 560SEL
W124 - 300e, 260e (ex Japan)
W111 220s (Indonesia) 4 speed manual column shift
W123 230
W116 450SEL
W140 420SEL
W210 E240
W209 CLK 240
W201 190e 2.6 (ex U.K.)

gjlockyer
Maybach
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Joined: Mon 29 Sep, 2008 1:17 pm
Model you own: w124
Location: Boronia VIC 3155

Re: The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

Post by gjlockyer » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 1:28 pm

Just replaced this plate in my car. Forum Sponsor could not source it, so got it from FCP Euro parts in the US. Current prices in $US are: Bosch Plate $70, Dissy Cap $58 and Rotor $21. Set of Beru Leads $77 and freight for all at $37. Total of US$270 converts to AUS$343 at todays exchange rate of 73c. Incredibly, that plate is the most expensive part!
Overall, a petty cheap maintenance fix. FCP Euro offer a lifetime guarantee - ship back old part and invoice and they'll replace it free. - includes all these bits. Freight costs may not make this viable in some cases.
Gary
1955 220a (1972-80) 1961 220SEb (1980-95)
1988 190E (2008-10/14) 1988 260E (11/2014-07/15)
1990 300E 2.6 (08/2015-07/17) Current car: 1991 300E 2.6

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Bartman4800
300 SLR
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Joined: Fri 10 Oct, 2008 12:10 am
Model you own: w111
Location: Perth WA

Re: The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

Post by Bartman4800 » Wed 23 Mar, 2016 4:27 pm

+1 on FCP

I get a lot of parts from them for my B5.5 Passat V6

What really sets them apart is their shipping cost. Most of the time about half what the others quote.

I wonder how they do that, since they use the same shipping providers....



Bart
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "missus car"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (my new commuter bus)

gjlockyer
Maybach
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon 29 Sep, 2008 1:17 pm
Model you own: w124
Location: Boronia VIC 3155

Re: The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

Post by gjlockyer » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 9:54 am

Like you, Bart, I would have thought this would be a fixed cost; their freight rate was the deciding factor in using them. With the exchanges rate as it is at present, the cheaper freight is even more so! When our $ dropped to 65c, I pulled out of an order as it wasn't worth it. I indicated the reason to them and they offered to find ways to make the freight even cheaper, and offered a small discount on the parts prices. I didn't follow up on this at the time as I needed a part fairly quickly. I'd be interested, though, in what they could do.
Gary
1955 220a (1972-80) 1961 220SEb (1980-95)
1988 190E (2008-10/14) 1988 260E (11/2014-07/15)
1990 300E 2.6 (08/2015-07/17) Current car: 1991 300E 2.6

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MercMad West Australian
450 SEL 6.9
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Re: The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

Post by MercMad West Australian » Wed 30 Mar, 2016 9:15 am

FCP shipping to Australia uses the same cost saving method as the pitney bowes global shipping program on eBay.

It avoids the costly LA - to NSW direct flight.

Instead it travels north to Alaska, then over to japan then all the way down to Australia via many stops. Much more complicated route, slightly longer delivery time but much, much cheaper especially for large heavy items.

Got my m104 specific OEM rear muffler from them and the postage was only $100 something, and its huge.
MMWA

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MercMad West Australian
450 SEL 6.9
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun 08 Dec, 2013 2:23 pm
Model you own: I own multiple different models
Location: Perth

Re: The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

Post by MercMad West Australian » Wed 30 Mar, 2016 9:17 am

gjlockyer wrote:Just replaced this plate in my car. Forum Sponsor could not source it, so got it from FCP Euro parts in the US. Current prices in $US are: Bosch Plate $70, Dissy Cap $58 and Rotor $21. Set of Beru Leads $77 and freight for all at $37. Total of US$270 converts to AUS$343 at todays exchange rate of 73c. Incredibly, that plate is the most expensive part!
Overall, a petty cheap maintenance fix. FCP Euro offer a lifetime guarantee - ship back old part and invoice and they'll replace it free. - includes all these bits. Freight costs may not make this viable in some cases.

The plate is $73 US on ebay with $6 postage from Latvia. Genuine Bosch. That's where I got mine if anyone else wants one.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/161930918597

Correct part number for and confirmed fits m104.980
MMWA

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peter gibbs
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Re: The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

Post by peter gibbs » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 2:24 pm

This is vital information for anyone who has a car from this period with the M104 engine. Interestingly, it was discovered both in the U.S., and Australia in 2016, when the cars were around 25 years of age. See attached.

https://starfest2016.mbca.org/star-arti ... 1990s-m-bs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye68bJMYWyo

The long and the short of it is that it causes the most infuriating list of issues which result in people replacing half the car to no avail....see above. But there are others. It DOES NOT, in all cases, contribute to classic misfiring that we all recognise instantly, but instead, manifests itself in a number of hard to pinpoint, subtle ways.
The car seems normal when cold to warming up, but the symptoms start to creep in as the engine becomes hotter. Power of acceleration is lost and an overall sluggishness pervades. The engine does not want to rev and consequently you can't access the power band. If the car is very hot or driven for a long time, then classic missing MAY start to creep in. As well, there can be pinging issues but replacement of the knock sensors does not fix the problem. I have no direct proof of this but my instincts tell me that the ignition module (EZL) is tricked by this which in turn causes the ECU to malfunction, causing a whole host of issues including wrong ignition timing.
Further, the marks/cracks on the disc mentioned above may NOT BE VISIBLE OR THERE, but I feel the disc breaks down after 25 years of electrical bombardment.

This disc and its rubber seal must be the most overlooked item affecting the correct running of these cars. The seal is available separately but also comes with a new insulation disc. If you remove the distributor cap on most of these cars you will notice that the seal is broken. Nothing stops these cars faster than humid air inside the cap. If you have starting/ missing issues after a week of rain or in foggy conditions, check the seal.

The availability of the disc is a problem. Hardly anyone stocks it. MB want AUD 380 for this bit of plastic! so it has to be sourced from overseas. As the above post mentions, FCP Euro are the best U.S. source because their postage is a fraction of the others. However, at the time of writing, they no longer stock it. The best source is on Ebay as mentioned above... from Latvia...about $100 all up. They have the cheapest Bosch parts on the internet.

Part numbers are:
MB. A104 158 00 88
Bosch. 1 230 500 238

If you have an M104 engine with the original disc, don't muck around...replace it.

Once this disc is fitted, if you have NO SLACK in the accelerator cable and your Bowden cable is adjusted to give the gear changes at the right time, you will have a new car on your hands. (Don't overlook the Oxygen sensor, another forgotten about part, which won't last past 25 years!)

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Ivanerrol
Mercedes Demigod
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Joined: Sat 12 May, 2007 3:21 pm
Model you own: w204
Location: Melbourne

Re: The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

Post by Ivanerrol » Thu 16 Mar, 2017 6:09 pm

That YouTube video was made by non other than the poster above yours - our own MMWA :salute:
W211 - E240
W204 - C280
W202 - C180
W210 - E240
Departed
W202 - C200
W202 - C180 - On consignment to nephew
W126 - 380SE , 380SE (Ex SA Import), 560SEL
W124 - 300e, 260e (ex Japan)
W111 220s (Indonesia) 4 speed manual column shift
W123 230
W116 450SEL
W140 420SEL
W210 E240
W209 CLK 240
W201 190e 2.6 (ex U.K.)

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MercMad West Australian
450 SEL 6.9
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun 08 Dec, 2013 2:23 pm
Model you own: I own multiple different models
Location: Perth

Re: The ANSWER to a LOT of issues!

Post by MercMad West Australian » Mon 20 Mar, 2017 12:32 am

Indeed it was me,

Speaking of replacing half the car chasing a problem, that's something I think we all do at some stage in our MB lives. LOL

Like when I was initially looking for the cause of my high idle right after installing a freshly rebuilt cylinder head. This was doing my head in for at least 6 months before the eureka moment.

(mal adjusted airflow meter pot by clowny tech compensating for crap, low idle caused by numerous other issues I fixed at the same time as the head)
MMWA

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