300ce 12valve or 24valve

1986-1995 : 200TD, 200CE, E200, 260E, 300E 2.6, 300E 2.8, 300E, E320, 400E, E420, 500E, E500, 300CE, E320, 230TE, 300TE, 300D 2.5 TURBO, E300 DIESEL, 300TD, 300E 4MATIC, 300TE 4MATIC, E36 AMG

300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby PugChimp » Wed 08 Mar, 2017 11:52 am

Hi guys,

I've been looking for a 300ce now for about 6 months but I haven't found a combination of colour, interior, engine that I'm happy with yet.

I see a common argument between the single cam & twin cam engine. Apart from the obvious, what's the concurrence in a forum like this?

For the six months I have been looking, there are not many cars moving irrespective of price. $2,000.00 in Brisbane or a $14,000 just not selling yet everyone is advertising them as "Rare"

Comments?
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby PugChimp » Thu 09 Mar, 2017 11:12 pm

I see replies must be being delivered by Australia Post.


......real popular forum?
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby Bartman4800 » Fri 10 Mar, 2017 11:15 am

Yes

Being smug will increase the speed - not


If you do a bit of effort and search around in this forum you might find your question has been answered before.
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby PugChimp » Fri 10 Mar, 2017 3:45 pm

Nah wont bother here..

Heaps of other forums are full of help elsewhere as that's what a forum is all about. If I want misinformation I will Google it as you suggest!

... Nice place!
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby Ivanerrol » Fri 10 Mar, 2017 4:36 pm

In short.

The main issue with the 24v's is the electronics - the EZL and multi relay - Fuel pump relay etc.
Because these 24v engined cars were only produced for a couple of years those electronic bits are hard to find and very expensive.

Still used KE injection on the M104 engine rather than the multipoint PMS injection ignition system on later cars.
At least they didn't suffer the dreaded biodegradable wiring.

EZL's are very hard to find.
W202 - C200
W210 - E240
Departed
W202 - C180 - On consignment to nephew
W126 - 380SE , 380SE (Ex SA Import), 560SEL
W124 - 300e, 260e (ex Japan)
W111 220s (Indonesia) 4 speed manual column shift
W123 230
W116 450SEL
W140 420SEL
W210 E240
W209 CLK 240
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby CraigB » Fri 10 Mar, 2017 5:06 pm

For what it's worth, 1 day on this forum isn't enough to cover the breadth of models, sorry if that doesn't live up to your expectations. Your chosen model has its followers but not the most popular and sounds like something you have worked out for yourself with sales figures. Although I have seen it written here by an admin that he thinks it one of his favourites and explained why. That sort of stuff exists here if you want to look for it, which if you have another read is what Bartman was suggesting and not for you to google. But you won't get him on here everyday and i think a lot of us have a life that won't see us here everyday, busy getting experience we can share back later to appreciative others. If you want to check out say Benzworld, you will probably get some quicker answers but from my experience you will also need to filter out the armchair experts that are on their computers all day ready to give you a response but rarely venture outside to get real knowledge. Good info on Benzworld too and i hope that's on your list of acceptable forums.

But doesn't sound like a problem and you've found your answers elsewhere.
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby MercMad West Australian » Fri 10 Mar, 2017 9:55 pm

I agree with the negatives on the 24 valve version.

I'm onto year 3 with mine now (same engine, sedan version) and have not experienced any concerns after the initial bulk load of work to bring it up to scratch. Having said that it would be lucky to do 2000km a year.

I have a spare EZL and MAS relay should they ever be required. The ones currently fitted are the same ones it rolled off the production line with though. You can find them on eBay by searching the part number, they are rarely under $600 minimum though (EZL) my mas relay I got for $50 delivered.

It's quite enjoyable, my only complaint is how much spring pressure is on the accelerator pedal in comparison to my fly by wire daily diesel mundaino, it is friggen annoying.
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby brette013 » Wed 15 Mar, 2017 2:01 pm

I've only owned my 24 valve for just over a year now and at 219000km's had to get an oil leak fixed recently as it was just getting too bad. Had that done while getting anything else in the way replaced at the same time, resulting in a large bill. Also found out when I first bought it that my rear subframe mounts were rusty and had to get that fixed as well.

The 24 valve models also have bigger brake discs and from what I've seen so far front lower control arms with a non-removable balljoint. So if a balljoint is worn, expect paying for control arms ranging from $400AUD aftermarket to $1000 genuine Mercedes. Of course, buying overseas will be cheaper just be mindful of postage. If you fit them yourself you'll save $200 a side in labour, alignment is required however. Not terribly difficult if you have a spring compressor and can remove the tight to access bolt and nut holding the balljoint in.

My electrics so far is all good, only thing electric that went wrong was the aftermarket automatic antenna unit, just sourced a new replacement from the sponsor here.
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby grr » Mon 15 May, 2017 4:41 pm

Ivanerrol wrote:EZL's are very hard to find.


Hi Ivan, having needed to replace mine two to three years ago I found them quite numerous on ebay.com (USA), and found two places that rebuild them with warranty for about $500USD; one in London, the other in Florida. it seems expensive but one must consider that it will last twenty years, and let's face it how many 300CE-24s are daily drivers? Any classic means spending a few dollars that a 'normal' car wouldn't require. And they are cheap to maintain regardless of the EZL issue.
Also a place in Hallam,Vic. that rebuilds EZLs but at the time of my enquiring back then didn't do our model as they stated it couldn't be done. When I advised them that at least two o/s businesses can rebuild they said they would look in to it; maybe they do now?

Many people freak out Re the EZL but I found out that it's not scary at all, plug and play, and if one plans ahead (I didn't LOL) a spare can be kept handy along withe the FPR and OPR relays.

Cheers.
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby AMG » Mon 15 May, 2017 6:08 pm

CraigB wrote:If you want to check out say Benzworld, you will probably get some quicker answers but from my experience you will also need to filter out the armchair experts that are on their computers all day ready to give you a response but rarely venture outside to get real knowledge.
But doesn't sound like a problem and you've found your answers elsewhere.



hahahaa. Thanks Craig in a nutshell. OP seems a little arrogant for a noob.


But only to add the following from experience:

10 years ownership:

1 broken thermostat, causing partial blockage of radiator, - which resulted in the head being removed and new gasket, timing cover seal fix
(was not 100% necessary at the time, it was done as preventative)
1 water pump replaced
distributor cap, rotor, oring, backpiece, coil, leads
1 header tank
a couple of header tank caps
radiator / heater hoses, brake hoses
at least a dozen regular oil changes, 3 sets of plugs.
biennial coolant changes
2 automatic transmissions - should have only been one, but that long story covered elsewhere
which resulted in a 3 year residence in JG's workshop while waiting for hoist time, and eventually a 6 speed manual transmission swap.
Several suspension changes / upgrades / decisions / reconfigurations performed - only through a desire to experiment with handling characteristics and obtain a desired 'feel'.
several different wheel / tyre combination changes - Funny how the original factory wheel offerings seem to find their way back on the vehicle... not through lack of trying others though....
Headwork was done when it was pulled for the gasket, incl a 'shave' to bump compression to just under 12:1


All in all, The car is quite cheap to run, goes like clockwork, gives no grief, and is lovingly cared for.

Most people who encounter problems with the 24v engine cars are those who buy someone elses problems.
I will say that the later HFM cars are decidedly more troublesome, due to the 'bio-harness' and this can cause any number of issues, ranging from minor component replacements to full-on 'replace everything electrical' in the engine bay.

Mechanically, I think the earlier m103 is simpler, and more cost-effective to own. the M104 is certainly robust, extremely powerful for a 3 Litre engine, and unlike the m103, has a power delivery that encourages you to really rev it out. The aural experience on an M104 is definitely one of the highlights of owning one.

If I had my time again, I think I would have bought a 124 coupe or cabriolet in preference to the R107. However, the C107 has a special place in my heart, as it was a true GT coupe. beautiful timeless styling, a lovely revvy v8 and 4 speed auto with nice positive shifts and a great engine note, but above all, a beautiful compliant ride.

Something the 124 does 'just a little differently'. Not better, not worse, just not the same.
I know deep down, that the AMG Hammer was always the car I wanted, so it's no surprise I have a coupe bias.

But the operating costs - I think it 100% comes down to how a vehicle is treated. If you look after it, then there should be no surprise that there will be some occasional maintenance costs which are a little higher than you anticipate. It's the same with every car though. 12 valve or 24 valve, the answer is not in ownership costs, but if that is a factor because of purchase budget or ongoing ownership concerns, then there is a slight advantage to the 12v M103 engine, simply because it was produced in far larger volume, so parts are more readily available.

The only other real decision is bodystyling - series 1, 2 or 3. I prefer the pronounced chrome grille surround of series 2, with the side-cladding. I'm not a fan of the series 3 bonnet and headlights. That's just me. It's not a reflection on the car.

The only thing I would be wary of is a HFM engined vehicle without evidence of a good service history.

The 5 speed auto is not an issue for sedans as much as it is for the coupe owners. It's also very easy and relatively straightforward to rectify, and once it's done (properly) then it's not an issue. but it can cost a bit if you're not mechanically minded.

Most of us are sensible enough to enlist the assistance of professionals when it comes time for major sub-assembly overhauls, and to that extent, any extensive engine, transmission or differential/driveline work should really be undertaken by a specialist independent MB professional workshop.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardenne Green "Oswald"
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby Ivanerrol » Mon 15 May, 2017 7:54 pm

Can't emphasis enough the need to really trawl through the internet for bits.
I bought my W202 at a cheap price because the P.O. had been quoted $3,800 + GST for a new ECU.
I checked the Russian site, found the equivalent updated unit part number and found out the Sprinter was equipped with the newer ECU - sourced one in Oz for $175.00

However $500+ for a 24v EZL versus $50.00 for a 12v. for a car that's only worth a couple of thousand :whistle:

In Australia W124's are daily drivers - they are cheap and if you fix it yourself are cheap D.D.'s

Having said that :dance: . Wife is pushing me for an up to date car. Mindful of the depreciation I'm looking through 2005 to 2012 cars. These cars are Daimler Chrysler era design :wall:

Nephew bought a 2007 CLK with a M272 engine. After six months of ownership a Check engine light has turned up - fault codes indicate its the dreaded balance shaft issue - a minor mega thousand dollar fix. :dontknow:
W202 - C200
W210 - E240
Departed
W202 - C180 - On consignment to nephew
W126 - 380SE , 380SE (Ex SA Import), 560SEL
W124 - 300e, 260e (ex Japan)
W111 220s (Indonesia) 4 speed manual column shift
W123 230
W116 450SEL
W140 420SEL
W210 E240
W209 CLK 240
W201 190e 2.6 (ex U.K.)
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby AMG » Mon 15 May, 2017 8:52 pm

Les, Not sure if you're a 204 fan, but the last of them are well enough spec'd for a shopping trolley ;)
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardenne Green "Oswald"
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby Ivanerrol » Tue 16 May, 2017 12:08 am

AMG wrote:Les, Not sure if you're a 204 fan, but the last of them are well enough spec'd for a shopping trolley ;)


Just missed a 2011 204 wagon with just over 40k's on it for less than $25K - procrastination :color:
W202 - C200
W210 - E240
Departed
W202 - C180 - On consignment to nephew
W126 - 380SE , 380SE (Ex SA Import), 560SEL
W124 - 300e, 260e (ex Japan)
W111 220s (Indonesia) 4 speed manual column shift
W123 230
W116 450SEL
W140 420SEL
W210 E240
W209 CLK 240
W201 190e 2.6 (ex U.K.)
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby grr » Tue 16 May, 2017 1:07 am

Ivanerrol wrote:...In Australia W124's are daily drivers...


Ivan, I was referring to 300CE-24 only as mostly not being daily drivers, at least the good ones :dance: .

Cheers.
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby AMG » Tue 16 May, 2017 6:36 am

Ivanerrol wrote:
AMG wrote:Les, Not sure if you're a 204 fan, but the last of them are well enough spec'd for a shopping trolley ;)


Just missed a 2011 204 wagon with just over 40k's on it for less than $25K - procrastination :color:


Bloody hell that's cheap. :Doh:
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardenne Green "Oswald"
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby Ivanerrol » Tue 16 May, 2017 1:20 pm

AMG wrote:
Ivanerrol wrote:
AMG wrote:Les, Not sure if you're a 204 fan, but the last of them are well enough spec'd for a shopping trolley ;)


Just missed a 2011 204 wagon with just over 40k's on it for less than $25K - procrastination :color:


Bloody hell that's cheap. :Doh:



Rather than keep hijacking this W124 thread, I started a new one

http://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=23954
W202 - C200
W210 - E240
Departed
W202 - C180 - On consignment to nephew
W126 - 380SE , 380SE (Ex SA Import), 560SEL
W124 - 300e, 260e (ex Japan)
W111 220s (Indonesia) 4 speed manual column shift
W123 230
W116 450SEL
W140 420SEL
W210 E240
W209 CLK 240
W201 190e 2.6 (ex U.K.)
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby Ivanerrol » Tue 16 May, 2017 1:28 pm

grr wrote:
Ivanerrol wrote:...In Australia W124's are daily drivers...


Ivan, I was referring to 300CE-24 only as mostly not being daily drivers, at least the good ones :dance: .

Cheers.


If I had a good CE I'd be using it as a daily driver - these cars need to be driven.

Having owned a few KE cars I.M.H.O. I'm no longer in favour of them - there's too many individual expensive parts to the system - all now getting too old.

If you find a good car then it's only worth doing a Merc Mad W.A. Replace all the critical KE components with brand new ones. This also valid for 12v cars.
Expensive exercise but well worth it overall.

Either that or buy a last series car and make sure the wiring harness and throttle body is changed.
W202 - C200
W210 - E240
Departed
W202 - C180 - On consignment to nephew
W126 - 380SE , 380SE (Ex SA Import), 560SEL
W124 - 300e, 260e (ex Japan)
W111 220s (Indonesia) 4 speed manual column shift
W123 230
W116 450SEL
W140 420SEL
W210 E240
W209 CLK 240
W201 190e 2.6 (ex U.K.)
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby john_1066 » Tue 16 May, 2017 8:43 pm

11539219_10153511205569382_1815982403228763946_o.jpg
Until recently my CE was a Daily Driver, however I have bought it an assistant (a Renault Clio RS200 which offers a somewhat different driving experience). The Mercedes is still often used to go the the supermarket, which fortunately is in the next town. Here is a photo taken on the way to the supermarket.
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby Tony From West Oz » Tue 16 May, 2017 10:04 pm

At first glance that looks like you are traveling fast, but then the Star would not be blurred. It looks, to me, like you went over some rough road while taking the shot. Unless you suffer from Parkinsons or the DTs (LOL)
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Josephine) - sold.
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby john_1066 » Tue 16 May, 2017 11:27 pm

Tony From West Oz wrote:At first glance that looks like you are traveling fast, but then the Star would not be blurred. It looks, to me, like you went over some rough road while taking the shot. Unless you suffer from Parkinsons or the DTs (LOL)

No, the camera was on a tripod, but with Image Stabilisation turned on, which it shouldn't have been, so the camera was overcorrecting. The blurred scenery, and the star for that matter are a function of the exposure time of course. But this is an MB forum, not an Olympus forum. Here is one with IS off, if you prefer.
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby brette013 » Wed 17 May, 2017 12:14 am

Your coupe looks like its gonna go back to the future at that rate of speed!
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby Tony From West Oz » Wed 17 May, 2017 12:31 am

john_1066 wrote:
Tony From West Oz wrote:At first glance that looks like you are traveling fast, but then the Star would not be blurred. It looks, to me, like you went over some rough road while taking the shot. Unless you suffer from Parkinsons or the DTs (LOL)

No, the camera was on a tripod, but with Image Stabilisation turned on, which it shouldn't have been, so the camera was overcorrecting. The blurred scenery, and the star for that matter are a function of the exposure time of course. But this is an MB forum, not an Olympus forum. Here is one with IS off, if you prefer.

John,
That shot is better.
Yes the exposure has caused the impression of traveling at high speed.
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Josephine) - sold.
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby john_1066 » Wed 17 May, 2017 6:07 pm

Tony From West Oz wrote:
john_1066 wrote:
Tony From West Oz wrote:At first glance that looks like you are traveling fast, but then the Star would not be blurred. It looks, to me, like you went over some rough road while taking the shot. Unless you suffer from Parkinsons or the DTs (LOL)

No, the camera was on a tripod, but with Image Stabilisation turned on, which it shouldn't have been, so the camera was overcorrecting. The blurred scenery, and the star for that matter are a function of the exposure time of course. But this is an MB forum, not an Olympus forum. Here is one with IS off, if you prefer.

John,
That shot is better.
Yes the exposure has caused the impression of traveling at high speed.

Thanks Tony, yes I should have gone with that one first up. Shaky vs slightly out of focus. Tough decision. And to brette013, unfortunately the flux capacitor is buggered, another difficult part to source for this model.
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby grr » Thu 18 May, 2017 10:19 pm

Ivanerrol wrote:If I had a good CE I'd be using it as a daily driver - these cars need to be driven.


I would like to drive mine more, not every day though, at least a few times a week, but with our current driveway configuration it's difficult to do; to get it out I need to move the wife's W203, hitch my tandem trailer to my ute and move that as well, and then do this in reverse after I drive it :banghead: Not convenient at all.

And that is the main reason I've decided to sell it.
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Re: 300ce 12valve or 24valve

Postby MercMad West Australian » Fri 19 May, 2017 10:13 am

Ivanerrol wrote:Having owned a few KE cars I.M.H.O. I'm no longer in favour of them - there's too many individual expensive parts to the system - all now getting too old.

If you find a good car then it's only worth doing a Merc Mad W.A. Replace all the critical KE components with brand new ones. This also valid for 12v cars.
Expensive exercise but well worth it overall.


I must be getting old too like the components, now that I've fixed everything I've lost interest in the car and don't even drive it anymore. I guess I was more interested in the challenge than the end game. I will find something else newer to mentally stimulate me eventually, this year hopefully.
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