R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

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R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:33 pm

Driving home from Melbourne CBD, going down busy Moray Street South Melbourne, at around 7pm on last Friday night (freezing cold - pouring with rain) my beloved SL500 came to a very abrupt halt.

It wouldn't start so got it towed.

Today, I got the news from the "doc" that the engine was turning over but the camshafts were not turning :banghead:

After further inspection, it was confirmed that the timing chain broke - which means many bent valves and unimaginable expense to get the engine fixed.

Has anyone else suffered this type of catastrophe?

My car is a 1995 SL500. It had done 210,000 kms - R129s AFAIK are not known to suffer broken timing chains.

I am advised it would cost around $4k in labour to remove the old engine and put in a replacement engine (if a good one could be located)

Anyone know if it is possible to buy reco or second-hand engine? And likley cost?

Any and all constructive advice appreciated

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by Tony From West Oz » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 10:29 pm

Contact the forum sponsor MB Spares in Canberra. They would know if any are available and likely cost of same.
They may also be able to advise the options for repairing your engine.

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Tue 28 Jun, 2016 11:02 pm

Thanks Tony

I have gone to their web-site and left them an email.

Appreciate the suggestion!

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by AMG » Thu 30 Jun, 2016 6:50 pm

There are several variants of the m119, so you're going to need to provide more information - VIN would be appropriate in this case.
Generally speaking, not a terribly common engine in oz, so look to europe or japan / hkg / sg for a replacement. Might be a few in kiwiland also, if you cannot locate one here.

In terms of rebuilding, probably already a forgone conclusion, it is not cheap to rebuild an M119, but it is not impossible, and many new old stock parts are around the place.
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by kimrh » Fri 01 Jul, 2016 4:18 pm

Yes the 1st step is identifying which engine model as they varied so much in specs
I think it would be the LH M119-972 short-deck/open-deck (the M119-970 was for the W140 )
(M119-974 for the 500E W124 chassis only)
In 1996 came the Motronic M119-980 short-deck/open-deck which was the final variant of the M119.
The earlier SL500 M119-960 was the tall-deck/closed deck CIS. This was the only block that could be bored out to 100mm/6litres as the others had wet liners.
I have two compete sets of mint spare heads with cams i imported direct from Germany a few yrs ago as i own two of these 500 engines)
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by John Green » Sat 02 Jul, 2016 10:27 am

We don't have any good used engines. And you are unlucky as those engines are generally not prone to chain issues. I would be interested to see what brand it was and whee it broke.
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by 95redC180 » Fri 08 Jul, 2016 12:43 am

I have a perfectly good M113 AMG engine if thatll work for you, not sure what youll need in order to get it into the space of an M119, it can come with a complete car roadworthy and perfectly drivable if you like, this way you have 5spd trans, computer, traction control, AMG wheels, etc etc...

Engine and trans have just short of 161,000klms and always serviced with only genuine parts.

Send me a PM if youre interested.

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Thu 14 Jul, 2016 11:57 pm

Tony From West Oz wrote:Contact the forum sponsor MB Spares in Canberra. They would know if any are available and likely cost of same.
They may also be able to advise the options for repairing your engine.

Tony
Hi Tony - Thanks for suggestion

I receieved an email back from MB Spares just saying they could not help

But was worth a try...

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Fri 15 Jul, 2016 12:01 am

kimrh wrote:Yes the 1st step is identifying which engine model as they varied so much in specs
I think it would be the LH M119-972 short-deck/open-deck (the M119-970 was for the W140 )
(M119-974 for the 500E W124 chassis only)
In 1996 came the Motronic M119-980 short-deck/open-deck which was the final variant of the M119.
The earlier SL500 M119-960 was the tall-deck/closed deck CIS. This was the only block that could be bored out to 100mm/6litres as the others had wet liners.
I have two compete sets of mint spare heads with cams i imported direct from Germany a few yrs ago as i own two of these 500 engines)
Email me direct if you want kimrh1@gmail.com
Hi Kim

Thanks for your input!

I have sent you a direct email but for everyone's info, the details of the car are as follows
It looks like your speculation is correct, the engine number does contain 119 972

Vin Number WDB1290672F124540

Engine Number 11997222018958

I am pretty sure my engine is a 1995 model

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Fri 15 Jul, 2016 12:08 am

AMG wrote:There are several variants of the m119, so you're going to need to provide more information - VIN would be appropriate in this case.
Generally speaking, not a terribly common engine in oz, so look to europe or japan / hkg / sg for a replacement. Might be a few in kiwiland also, if you cannot locate one here.

In terms of rebuilding, probably already a forgone conclusion, it is not cheap to rebuild an M119, but it is not impossible, and many new old stock parts are around the place.
HI AMG,

Thanks very much for your input,

I think it is a 119 972 variant, based on engine number

Vin Number WDB1290672F124540

Engine Number 11997222018958

I wonder about the economies of repair - It looks like getting a secondhand engine and replacing it will cost around 9 - 10K (If I can get a s/hand motor)

The car will only be worth $18 k after its fixed and as it has done 210k kilometers, I am at risk of transmission failure and other major companent wear failure - touch decision

ALan

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by Bartman4800 » Fri 15 Jul, 2016 4:16 pm

Some engines available on fleabay - worth a try?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Complete-Engine ... icle=Front

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by kimrh » Fri 15 Jul, 2016 10:21 pm

None of those engines listed are 32v M119's
They are pretty rare these days to find even in USA as all that were around in wrecking yards a few years ago got snapped up for projects and spare parts
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Fri 15 Jul, 2016 11:25 pm

Bartman4800 wrote:Some engines available on fleabay - worth a try?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Complete-Engine ... icle=Front

Bart
Hi Bart

Thanks for the suggestion...I have checked them all and as Kim says in the next message, none of them are 119 972 motors

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Fri 15 Jul, 2016 11:34 pm

kimrh wrote:None of those engines listed are 32v M119's
They are pretty rare these days to find even in USA as all that were around in wrecking yards a few years ago got snapped up for projects and spare parts
Yes, Kim

There is a supplier in the US that sells long engines, refurbished, but they charge about $10k US plus freight..and they want the old block in exchange as well. Not economical at that level


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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Fri 15 Jul, 2016 11:43 pm

After input from my contributors here and other discussions, it has been suggested that it may be possible that the pistons and the engine below the heads is not damaged and may not need replacement.

This possibility would need to be explored by removing the heads and examining the cylinders I am advised.

That work can be done with the engine still in the car.

Assuming that is the case and the work needed only relates to repair of the heads and valves, that would potentially mean the engine could be repaired and saved.

So, the question becomes, what would be the cost of the repairs to the heads in best and worst case?

Anyone care to try to provide some educated estimates as to what could be the best and worst case work required, and how many hours for each scenario?

The reason that it may be that the engine may not be completely ruined, it has been speculated, is that the car was not traveling very fast and when the engine failed, it just stopped running ( like the fuel cut out) it was instant..and the car rolled to a standstill.


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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by Bartman4800 » Sat 16 Jul, 2016 10:44 pm

Best case scenario is having to replace some of the 32 valves + a new chain, tensioner and guides. Quite easy to find out which valves are bent or not.

Worst case is a bent valve drive train + damaged pistons + bent piston rods...

But when this only happened at idle there is a fair chance only some valves are bent and little impressions were made on the pistons.


Good luck!

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by kimrh » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 12:26 pm

I agree as discussed direct with Alan - once the heads are off the damage can then be assessed.
In the meantime you could simply get a camera probe down the spark plug holes to inspect the tops of the pistons to see how many pistons were hit which would be a good start
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 9:30 pm

Ok - Here is a pic of the broken timing chain...

[img]
IMAG2458_1.jpg
[/img]

One "arm" out of two on each of the two chains are broken at the same link - IS that an indication that some foreign object came between the chain and the sprocket and caused both chains to fail in the same link?
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 9:40 pm

IMAG2464_2.jpg
Ok so this is the state of the engine at the moment with rocker covers off and broken chain removed

Next step is for heads to be removed and asses the extent of valve and other damage (Potentially damage to head of cyclinder
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by 95redC180 » Mon 18 Jul, 2016 6:01 pm

Never know ya luck mate, may just be ok!!

Sorry i havent phoned yet ive been quite busy with work, id imagine youll want to wait and see what happens there before you consider an M113 swap too, because if you can repair that engine itll be a whole lot cheaper!

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 1:03 am

kimrh wrote:I agree as discussed direct with Alan - once the heads are off the damage can then be assessed.
In the meantime you could simply get a camera probe down the spark plug holes to inspect the tops of the pistons to see how many pistons were hit which would be a good start
Kim, great idea - I will get that done tomorrow hopefully!

What can I expect to actually see if there is no damage or a lot of damage?

Alan

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Sun 24 Jul, 2016 12:29 am

Screenshot 2016-07-23 23.24.10.png
Hi All,

For your interest here is a link to some photos showing the left cylinder bank and the base of the valves after left head removed

One small photo above - more and bigger versions by following the link

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dr9x28twb3a6 ... mvWaa?dl=0
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by Tony From West Oz » Sun 24 Jul, 2016 1:39 am

I can't see any major damage. Valves seem to be seating well and pistons do not seem to have any gouges or fresh marks on them.
One way to confirm this is to have the heads checked by a specialist and measure the piston crown to top of cylinder clearance and verify that all pistons have the same clearance at TDC for that piston.
Others have more experience with these engines and may be able to advise further.

You may have missed out on major damage.

Regards,
Tony
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Sun 24 Jul, 2016 1:04 pm

Tony From West Oz wrote:I can't see any major damage. Valves seem to be seating well and pistons do not seem to have any gouges or fresh marks on them.
One way to confirm this is to have the heads checked by a specialist and measure the piston crown to top of cylinder clearance and verify that all pistons have the same clearance at TDC for that piston.
Others have more experience with these engines and may be able to advise further.

You may have missed out on major damage.

Regards,
Tony
Thanks for the input Tony - I'm hopeful, although the other head is yet to be removed so fingers crossed.

Also, how can one tell if the timing chain sprockets are worn and would they wear down after 200,000 km?
(It would not be good to put it all back together and replace the timing chain if somehow, the condition of the sprockets would be below tolerance and contribute to another instance of timing chain failure)
What else do I need to think about if the other head comes off and the cylinder heads look good - what else do I need to know?

Thanks

Alan

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by kimrh » Sun 24 Jul, 2016 8:39 pm

Sign up to the 500Eboard Forum (dedicated M119 specialists) as they know anything there is to know about these engines.
Post up what happened in the engine section and where you are at now with pics and they will advise correctly on anything you ask re cam cogs etc
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/forum.php
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by 95redC180 » Mon 25 Jul, 2016 1:25 am

redgear wrote:
Tony From West Oz wrote:I can't see any major damage. Valves seem to be seating well and pistons do not seem to have any gouges or fresh marks on them.
One way to confirm this is to have the heads checked by a specialist and measure the piston crown to top of cylinder clearance and verify that all pistons have the same clearance at TDC for that piston.
Others have more experience with these engines and may be able to advise further.

You may have missed out on major damage.

Regards,
Tony
Thanks for the input Tony - I'm hopeful, although the other head is yet to be removed so fingers crossed.

Also, how can one tell if the timing chain sprockets are worn and would they wear down after 200,000 km?
(It would not be good to put it all back together and replace the timing chain if somehow, the condition of the sprockets would be below tolerance and contribute to another instance of timing chain failure)
What else do I need to think about if the other head comes off and the cylinder heads look good - what else do I need to know?

Thanks

Alan
No way id reuse any of the sprockets, they all should be replaced when the chain is!

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by merc-304 » Mon 25 Jul, 2016 10:51 am

If the other head valves and pistons show no damage ...you dodged a missile and will be saving big $ in head rebuild costs so no skimping on the the sprockets - replace them.
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by CraigB » Mon 25 Jul, 2016 11:13 am

as a general comment on sprockets, be the drive chain on a bike or whatever, the chain pulls in one direction so you can see an uneven shape to the base of the teeth on the sprocket. But thats not disputing the advice to replace when going to all this work and having the damage.
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by redgear » Sun 23 Apr, 2017 9:03 pm

A big "THANK YOU" to all who have provided input and advice around the resurrection of my SL500

Well just to close the loop (or at least an update to present time), a second-hand engine was found and has replaced the damaged engine which turned out to be unusable and far too expensive to repair.

The new engine feels quite fresh - It supposedly had many fewer kilometres than the original engine and it feels strong.

A new timing chain and sprockets was included in the engine rebuild to ensure there would not be any more timing chain mishaps.

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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by CraigB » Sun 23 Apr, 2017 9:21 pm

Good news! Thanks for letting us know
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Re: R129 - Timing Chain broke on Friday nite (24/6)

Post by John Green » Fri 28 Apr, 2017 8:16 pm

Looking at the picture of the old chain, it appears to be an aftermarket chain. The genuine MB unit is made generally by IWIS or SACHS with the brand clearly stamped onto each link. We will only sell either brand, preferring to sell the IWIS brand.
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