Chinese engineering...

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Mercmad
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Chinese engineering...

Post by Mercmad » Fri 11 Nov, 2016 11:45 pm

i bought a unused 2nd hand drill press lately very cheaply. it wasn't until i got it home i realised that the reason it was unused was ... :think: :think:
IMG_0170.JPG
First one to spot it doesn't get a prize but just be thankful you dont own it...LOL!. :dontknow:

yes the table is down as far at it goes. no, the head doesn't lift any higher . :coffee2:
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Giles » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:17 am

Whoops, surely not?

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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Tony From West Oz » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 12:17 am

And you didn't notice it until you got it home? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha .
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Pete49 » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 1:24 pm

Just purchase some black pipe and make a new piece. I did that to give me a slightly taller drill due to the jobs I was doing at the time.
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Ludwig » Sat 12 Nov, 2016 6:11 pm

Oh how the Chinese elite must laugh at us foolish westerners.
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Mercmad » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 10:49 am

I didn't notice it because you dont think that anyone could be so stupid as to actually make a thing like this. I have some large tube and I might make it into a floor mounted drill press .The quality is amazingly bad though. the spindle wobbles as if the bearing(if it has one) is worn out. I only need something to do rough work but there is limit... ha ha

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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by 220SEB » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 1:00 pm

We bought four of these Chinese built Presses for our students to use and they all came looking like that…what we discovered was, that is the way they were packed to save on shipping, with the column pushed down into the base.
There were three grub screws that secured it, undid the screws and slid the column out and all was good. Until the students got to them, they lasted 1 year before being tossed out and replaced with "brobo waldowns 8SN's" which will out last the students and their children!

Incidentally, one of these stuffed Chinese drill presses went to a machinist friend, he spent considerable time repairing it, worn/bent shafts, stuffed bearings and cracked castings. In the end he stated that it was a good copy of a bad design :wall: and would never have lasted in the training environment even if well made.

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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Ludwig » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 10:40 pm

Ron,
You got off easy.
I know of a company here in WA that bought a full container lot of shadecloth.
Very cheap! Very good! You like?
Problem was...............material NOT UV stabilised.
Started to fall to pieces within a few months so.....................red faces and refunds all around and the rest ...........off to the tip.
A refund from the supplier?............................Yeah. Of course. NOT
IF IT'S MADE IN CHINA IT'S CRAP.
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by TheMadRacoon » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 12:21 am

Should that be "enchineering" then....?
Emad,
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Ludwig » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 12:48 pm

another example of Chinese Crap.
I bought a Chinese made cement mixer (yes...stupid Westerner)
anyhoo...after a while one of the tyres went down and so I removed the dust cap from the valve and it disintegrated in my hand. Plastic not UV stabilised. Now I ask.....how much did that valve cap cost to manufacture and how much more would it have cost to use the proper plastic? What would t have added to the cost of the cement mixer? I suspect a very small fraction of a cent.
they just can't help themselves. They just have to rob, cheat and steal.
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Pete49 » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 12:59 pm

[quote="220SEB"]We bought four of these Chinese built Presses for our students to use and they all came looking like that…what we discovered was, that is the way they were packed to save on shipping, with the column pushed down into the base.
There were three grub screws that secured it, undid the screws and slid the column out and all was good. Until the students got to them, they lasted 1 year before being tossed out and replaced with "brobo waldowns 8SN's" which will out last the students and their children!
quote]

:Doh: :Doh: there's your answer...obvious really if you think about it ...Not that I did this time.
Pete
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Ivanerrol » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 11:26 am

TheMadRacoon wrote:Should that be "enchineering" then....?
Not quite.

The engineering is done in the west.

These are just clones made from the cheapest crap that's available to the manufacturers.
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Ivanerrol » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 11:37 am

220SEB wrote:We bought four of these Chinese built Presses for our students to use and they all came looking like that…what we discovered was, that is the way they were packed to save on shipping, with the column pushed down into the base.
There were three grub screws that secured it, undid the screws and slid the column out and all was good. Until the students got to them, they lasted 1 year before being tossed out and replaced with "brobo waldowns 8SN's" which will out last the students and their children!

Incidentally, one of these stuffed Chinese drill presses went to a machinist friend, he spent considerable time repairing it, worn/bent shafts, stuffed bearings and cracked castings. In the end he stated that it was a good copy of a bad design :wall: and would never have lasted in the training environment even if well made.
The good old days - when technical schools still existed.

I spent a couple of years at a dedicated technical school.
That school had fully kitted out workshops with professional level equipment.
Plumbing, Sheet metal,welding, and fitting and turning workshop were supplied with either redundant or excess to stock lathes,drill presses, furnaces, welding equipment from the local Comonwealth Arms factory.
The Armanent factory in turn depended on a steady supply of metal tradeapprentices from the school.

The school only needs to supply consumables and maintenance.
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by TheMadRacoon » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 5:38 pm

Ivanerrol wrote:
The good old days - when technical schools still existed.

I spent a couple of years at a dedicated technical school.
That school had fully kitted out workshops with professional level equipment....
The Armanent factory in turn depended on a steady supply of metal tradeapprentices from the school.
.... and in turn supplied experienced tradespeople to the likes of GMH etc or who went on to have their own businesses taking on more apprentices, servicing a wide range of industries.

I'm on the periphery so can't say as fact, but the cycle seems broken now. Sure we have other new industries but we are losing a lot of skills (and skilled jobs) across the board.
Emad,
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by TheMadRacoon » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 5:49 pm

Ivanerrol wrote:
TheMadRacoon wrote:Should that be "enchineering" then....?
Not quite.

The engineering is done in the west.

These are just clones made from the cheapest crap that's available to the manufacturers.
One problem is that there are many state owned companies trying to compete for export dollars. They are legacy companies with out-dated (even 30 years ago) machinery trying to produce goods. They are probably subsidised (directly or indirectly by access to easy credit). But in time they will invest their earnings and update and grow. They are at the start of their journey, with a sizeable labour and engineering-labour cost advantage that will continue for some time.

We are not helping ourselves buying this sort of stuff. Why do we expect so much for so little outlay? Nobody would buy such crap from us if we made it. It's small beer for us and we can (for now) afford to throw such stuff out or modify it and put it down to experience, but they've still earned their dollars. NO offense, but we just can't resist what we think is a bargain, but to our own detriment.
Emad,
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1975 350SLC Astral Silver (725) / Blue (2012, 284,900 km - present.... a real Benz, getting better and better)
1988 190E Deep Blue (900) / Cream (2006, 190,000 km - 2007, ~ 215,000 km .... FSH and still spent big $$$)
1974 280E Reed Green (860) / Bone (1993, 316,700 km - 2004, ~490,000 km and still A1)

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Chinese engineering...

Post by ChristoC » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 6:53 pm

Yes MadRacoon, you describe almost all products available at our familiar Chinese hardware chain, Boo Nings.


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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Ludwig » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 7:49 pm

Where Japan and subsequently Korea and Taiwan began by producing shoddy goods,later polished their performance and now produce products of high quality, China has a history of producing progressively declining quality. An example is the silk trade with Europe, going back to the time of Marco Polo when all silk came from China. Over time their quality declined to a point where the wealthy Europeans would no longer buy their shoddy products and the trade was almost completely usurped by Japan.
For an insight into the nature of the Chinese businessman read "Poorly Made in China" (can't remember the author) This book was written by an American who worked for many years in China and provides an insiders view of the Chinese business philosophy. I deliberately do not say "Chinese business ethic" because ethics play no part in their business dealings. I challenge you to read this book.
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by TheMadRacoon » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 10:08 pm

There are quality made-in-China products, but like from anywhere else they are not dirt cheap. Though we don't see many such products here.
Emad,
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1975 350SLC Astral Silver (725) / Blue (2012, 284,900 km - present.... a real Benz, getting better and better)
1988 190E Deep Blue (900) / Cream (2006, 190,000 km - 2007, ~ 215,000 km .... FSH and still spent big $$$)
1974 280E Reed Green (860) / Bone (1993, 316,700 km - 2004, ~490,000 km and still A1)

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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Ludwig » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 11:04 pm

Quality made Chinese products?????
Go on...................name one.
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by redlaser » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 8:48 am

tHEY ARE CHEAP AND SADLY POOR QUALITY..U GET WHAT U PAY FOR..I BOUGHT A SOLDERING IRON FOR A COUPLE OF DOLLARS AND IT LASTED 5 MINUTES ..TO BE EXPECTED... CHINESE GOODS ARE SUSPECT AND CHEAP!!

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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Bartman4800 » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 11:35 am

Ludwig wrote:Where Japan and subsequently Korea and Taiwan began by producing shoddy goods,later polished their performance and now produce products of high quality, China has a history of producing progressively declining quality. An example is the silk trade with Europe, going back to the time of Marco Polo when all silk came from China. Over time their quality declined to a point where the wealthy Europeans would no longer buy their shoddy products and the trade was almost completely usurped by Japan.
For an insight into the nature of the Chinese businessman read "Poorly Made in China" (can't remember the author) This book was written by an American who worked for many years in China and provides an insiders view of the Chinese business philosophy. I deliberately do not say "Chinese business ethic" because ethics play no part in their business dealings. I challenge you to read this book.
There is an excerpt of his book that can be read here:

http://knowledge.insead.edu/node/1244/pdf

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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Bartman4800 » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 2:08 pm

Ludwig wrote:Quality made Chinese products?????
Go on...................name one.

Well, there are Western Companies who own Chinese production facilities.

Apple comes to mind, and various car manufacturers have a facility as well.

The difference is that these are Western run (and owned) companies with a Chinese workforce.

So in theory a Chinese produced VW should be exactly the same as a Spanish or German produced one....



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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Ludwig » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 2:31 pm

Ahaa.
The key word is "owned".
An American owned company operating in China is producing American goods in the same way that an American company operating in (say) Illinois and using all foreign labour is also producing American goods. There is nothing wrong with the Chinese workers. They know that they are producing crap and are, I am sure, as amazed as am I that "stupid westerners" buy it. No, it's not the folks on the tools, but their Chinese masters who can't be trusted.
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by ChristoC » Fri 18 Nov, 2016 6:28 pm

A friend who does a lot of valuable high-tech business selling into China says for many Chinese businesses, which are largely State-owned or closely allied with the State, profit is not a high priority; they are desperate maintain local employment and to earn foreign currency, so they aim to break even with a high turnover of low quality goods and have very little emphasis on quality control.


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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Mercmad » Sun 27 Nov, 2016 5:26 pm

Many who have tried to buy ex tafe machine tools will know that there is a massive demand for the gear . Even lathes that are 40 -50 years old are snapped up because new ones are so lacking in Quality.
We had Arboga gear drive drill presses at my high school, made in sweden ,with vices etc also made in Sweden. When ever i see an Arboga drill press turn up for sale,the prices is often in 4 figures. A new one is $8000 + . One piece of machinery i did buy was a Heenan and Froud G3 Dyno,which had been used by the woolongong tafe . Unfortunately it required too much floor space to be set up properly so i sold it.

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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Chai » Sun 27 Nov, 2016 10:11 pm

On the other hand ... I was shocked when I inspected a brand-new Miele cooktop installation last month and noticed that the unit had a faulty thermocouple. It wouldn't register that the burner was on its lowest setting and the safety device then shut off the gas supply. Couldn't understand how that unit passed quality control. Was not the quality of the Miele items I have owned for the last 25+ years, which were/are still going strong (touch wood) past their 20th year.

Also have a Swiss-designed, EU-made LauraStar steam ironing board. The electronics played up under one year. Brought it back from warranty repair ... the problem still recurred.

When I buy cheap Chinese-made goods from eBay, I am glad if they work long enough until the next upgrade purchase. After all, they usually cost less delivered to my doorstep than the cost of fuel driving to the shops in my 450. However, if I pay good money relative to the competition, I expect them to work and last.
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by TheMadRacoon » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 8:14 am

Chai wrote:On the other hand ... I was shocked when I inspected a brand-new Miele cooktop installation last month and noticed that the unit had a faulty thermocouple. It wouldn't register that the burner was on its lowest setting and the safety device then shut off the gas supply. Couldn't understand how that unit passed quality control. Was not the quality of the Miele items I have owned for the last 25+ years, which were/are still going strong (touch wood) past their 20th year.

Also have a Swiss-designed, EU-made LauraStar steam ironing board. The electronics played up under one year. Brought it back from warranty repair ... the problem still recurred.

When I buy cheap Chinese-made goods from eBay, I am glad if they work long enough until the next upgrade purchase. After all, they usually cost less delivered to my doorstep than the cost of fuel driving to the shops in my 450. However, if I pay good money relative to the competition, I expect them to work and last.
I guess a lot of manufacturers nowadays are really assemblers. They have specifications for bought in parts, rather than design or build them. Of course this has been the case for a long time, but perhaps now the vetting of suppliers (testing) is not as it used to be? The automotive sector has always relied on suppliers, but you couldn't (wouldn't) change suppliers often - and if you did it would be to ones who've supplied you before. There were always long term relationships. But now there are so many choices and if engineers had little clout before they have less now vs accountants.

But I like you're yardstick for value: comparing it to the amount you spend on fuel to pick goods up. Hehehe, everything's cheap next to a cast iron M116 / M117 's fuel consumption!
Emad,
TheMadRacoon
1975 350SLC Astral Silver (725) / Blue (2012, 284,900 km - present.... a real Benz, getting better and better)
1988 190E Deep Blue (900) / Cream (2006, 190,000 km - 2007, ~ 215,000 km .... FSH and still spent big $$$)
1974 280E Reed Green (860) / Bone (1993, 316,700 km - 2004, ~490,000 km and still A1)

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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by Mercmad » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 8:20 am

I have been happily buying cheap chinese tools sold under the Force brand for 16 years. I bought a set of sockets first ,thinking they would last a few months, the biggest problem i found wasn't wear ,but losing the tools on the job .. I find them to be as good as Stahlwille and hazet tools i bought 40+ years ago. if buying chinese ,make sure the spelling is correct..
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Re: Chinese engineering...

Post by TheMadRacoon » Mon 28 Nov, 2016 4:47 pm

Actually Mercmad, HEAVY DTUY is the name of the guy who operated the drop forge :laughing5:
Emad,
TheMadRacoon
1975 350SLC Astral Silver (725) / Blue (2012, 284,900 km - present.... a real Benz, getting better and better)
1988 190E Deep Blue (900) / Cream (2006, 190,000 km - 2007, ~ 215,000 km .... FSH and still spent big $$$)
1974 280E Reed Green (860) / Bone (1993, 316,700 km - 2004, ~490,000 km and still A1)

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