Self-driving cars anyone?

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willtosleep
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Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by willtosleep » Fri 15 Dec, 2017 1:20 am

They say we'll probably get driverless cars by 2021 https://tranio.com/world/spotlight/self ... rket_5354/ made by Ford, General Motors, BMW and Toyota. Do you guys look forward to it? As much as I look forward to see and get some experience with them, I don't quite believe they will be widespread before 2030's. It should take a lot to implement them in the local infrastructures, and there are some ethical questions about programming them too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixIoDYVfKA0 Wonder what you guys think about it

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Ivanerrol » Fri 15 Dec, 2017 7:57 pm

Shamelessly stolen quote from excellent article on alternative energy vehicles.

The same applies to self - driving cars.
There seems to be an amazing amount of appallingly bad misinformation on both traditional and alternate energy out there. Driven by everything from wishful thinking to hidden agendas to hero worship to big business hatred to government stupidity to subsidy ripoffs to bad labwork to utter cluelessness to R&D funding grabs to outright scams.
Two examples.

Last week I had to go to outer south of Melbourne. I used the GPS in the W204. A major new freeway wasn't on the GPS.

Two weeks before that I had the occasion to need to drive from the Melbourne CBD to an address five kilometers away in Port Melbourne.
I used the iPhone and gogglemap GPS. - It's got the latest updates
I followed the GPS directions on the phone knowing it was leading me astray.
I ended up in a carpark underneath the Bolte Bridge 7 kilometers away from my destination.
Resetting the GPS and starting again, the first command was to take a road that would have required me to drive through a 2 meter wire mesh fence.

Government stupidity driven by P.T. Barnum showman such as the Muskrat is leading the gullible over a cliff.
Car companies are going along for the ride - there's tax benefits to be had.
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Mercmad » Tue 19 Dec, 2017 3:20 pm

It was the lemming which ran off the cliff wasn't it?https://youtu.be/AOOs8MaR1YM

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Mercmad » Tue 19 Dec, 2017 3:25 pm

imagine your self driving car taking you out to Bourke via Louth? And what do you do if the battery runs down ?

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Christo C » Tue 19 Dec, 2017 3:36 pm

Mercmad, It is FAKE NEWS: ‘twas in 1958 Disney invented that story and faked the footage about Lemmings in a documentary; discredited now as totally untrue; even Disney Studios admit they told a fib.
Or is that your point?
(In case you are wondering, Mickey Mouse was fake too! Sorry to rain on your parade.)
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by T-Modell » Tue 19 Dec, 2017 6:04 pm

Hi,
coming back to the topic; here in Germany traffic is getting more and more heavy, i. e. in 80% of the cases, you can just "swim" with the traffic. So "self-driving" and making speed is less and less possible. So when you're on long business trips, exhausted, it's quite a challenge to drive 300-600kms home.

That's why a few weeks ago I test-drove the facelift S-Class with Distronic and an assistant to change lanes automatically. I was totally surprised, how well these systems work already. You put the cruise control at e. g. 140km/h and the car does the rest. The distance to the front car is in a way constant, that you think it's connected to it with a steel bar. Setting the indicator, the car checks if it's safe to change lanes and does it automatically.

No technical system will ever work 100%, but imho it's a huge relief when you HAVE to drive.

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Mercmad » Wed 20 Dec, 2017 1:49 pm

Christo C wrote:
Tue 19 Dec, 2017 3:36 pm
Mercmad, It is FAKE NEWS: ‘twas in 1958 Disney invented that story and faked the footage about Lemmings in a documentary; discredited now as totally untrue; even Disney Studios admit they told a fib.
Or is that your point?
(In case you are wondering, Mickey Mouse was fake too! Sorry to rain on your parade.)
I just put the link up to show lemmings jumping into the sea ,but if you want to look closer,you can see they were actually thrown into the sea by the film crew.... I have known this part of the story since at least the 60's . :laughing6: :laughing6:

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Mercmad » Wed 20 Dec, 2017 1:52 pm

T-Modell wrote:
Tue 19 Dec, 2017 6:04 pm
Hi,
coming back to the topic; here in Germany traffic is getting more and more heavy, i. e. in 80% of the cases, you can just "swim" with the traffic. So "self-driving" and making speed is less and less possible. So when you're on long business trips, exhausted, it's quite a challenge to drive 300-600kms home.

That's why a few weeks ago I test-drove the facelift S-Class with Distronic and an assistant to change lanes automatically. I was totally surprised, how well these systems work already. You put the cruise control at e. g. 140km/h and the car does the rest. The distance to the front car is in a way constant, that you think it's connected to it with a steel bar. Setting the indicator, the car checks if it's safe to change lanes and does it automatically.

No technical system will ever work 100%, but imho it's a huge relief when you HAVE to drive.

Regards
Thomas
The driver less vehicle has been around long before the car... it's called a bus. If i had to live where there were more cars than Brisbane i would leave. :laughing6:

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Ivanerrol » Sat 23 Dec, 2017 9:37 am

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/exc ... ePageNews7

Interesting but must be read carefully
Haab says a level three introduction period of 2020-2025 “sounds reasonable” in Australia, where autonomous driving abilities are likely to be restricted to controlled zones on major dual-carriageways.
Haab says it will be decades before people can buy a “car” that would allow anyone – even children, infirm or blind people – to travel anywhere, anytime with the same freedoms offered to regular drivers.
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Ludwig » Sat 23 Dec, 2017 11:35 pm

yeah driverless cars. I need to go into town to pick up some parts for a windmill. Drive 50kms along almost uninhabited roads, collect the part and then drive back before driving down into the paddock to where the windmill is located. oh dear, I forgot some tools so.....drive back to the shed....no not there....maybe down at the dam....yes, that's right, I was fixing a water pump yesterday and left my stilson on the fuel tank......ok found it so now back to the windmill....but while I'm here, ill take a drive around the paddock to check on the lambs........why is that one limping.....back to the shed to pick up a dog and the first aid kit and then back to the paddock....where are they now.....oh there they are in amongst those trees...........
I could go on but you get the point. driverless cars my arse. oh...and I don't need to own a car....just call one up when I need it????? oh yeah that's gonna work too.
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Mercmad » Sat 30 Dec, 2017 11:33 am

Musk is becoming the green guru of the 21st century and just like most cult leaders, hes a fake. Here's cardogan's bitchy view of it all. Bitchy but right on the nail .https://youtu.be/LlvYv1SJJEY and in the past where cult members have no real idea of history;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Electric_Truck

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Ivanerrol » Sat 30 Dec, 2017 8:03 pm

The trouble with Cadogan is that he's a Journo.
It's obvious he has no engineering or scientific high level education.
He studies "Facts" in some pseudo scientific or online economic publications and bases his reasoning on these "Facts".
He quote's laws of Thermodynamics constantly but I highly suspect he has no Physics knowledge to go with to actually understand the science behind them.

He calls Tesla devotees Cult Members but he is himself a full scale member of the Globull warming cult. Global Warming and runaway rising temperatures is itself contradictory to the Laws of Thermodynamics - but I suspect if you pointed this out to him he would call you a dickhead.

He has some good points about self driving and electric cars but has missed the real Physics and real world issues.

Now.... :snooty: Here is the game changer.
In the last couple of weeks those associated with the US military program investigating "UFO"'s have admitted that UFO's are real.
This hasn't yet sunk into the general MSM and or general public.

The technology associated with these UFO's is unknown - at least to the general public.
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Bartman4800 » Fri 05 Jan, 2018 4:29 pm

Ivanerrol wrote:
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 8:03 pm
The trouble with Cadogan is that he's a Journo.
It's obvious he has no engineering or scientific high level education.
He studies "Facts" in some pseudo scientific or online economic publications and bases his reasoning on these "Facts".
He quote's laws of Thermodynamics constantly but I highly suspect he has no Physics knowledge to go with to actually understand the science behind them.
He actually claims he does have a degree in Mechanical Engineering.
Being an engineer myself I have not been able to fault him on his facts.

He was spot on with the Ford Ranger ad, where the "madmen" who made the ad obviously got their Force calculations skewed...
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Mercmad » Thu 11 Jan, 2018 6:50 pm

Electric cars haven't progressed much since the late 1800's .They are still heavy, expensive and have a pitiful range. To me , most Teslas I've seen are simply pimped up Toyota camrys with nothing to really make them stick out .As PT Barnum said, theres a sucker born every minute.

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by brothermaynard » Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:19 pm

Having driven from Melbourne to Sydney and back via the Hume last week I can confidently say i would have been stoked to have had a new S class to assist with most of the driving. That trip must qualify as the most soul-destroying drive in the world. Adaptive cruise control and automated lane changes would have been pretty nice. It does introduce the risk of drivers falling asleep at the wheel though...

And no, there won't be level 5 autonomous self driving cars in your paddock this decade. Or even in the next.
But there might be a car available to me in ten years that allows me to read a book or take a nap whilst driving down the Hume, and take back control somewhere just before Sydney. That'd be a damn good start. And don't forget there are plenty of controlled environments out there where self driving vehicles are nothing new anymore - RioTinto has successfully been using self driving haul trucks in mines for years, thousands of self driving pallet movers are in use in warehouses around the world. Step by step these technologies will move into less predictable environments.

But this progress will be slower than companies predicted in 2014. This Wired article is a nice one on that topic: https://www.wired.com/story/self-drivin ... hallenges/

As far as electric cars go - to say they haven't improved much since the 1800s is nonsense. No, they can't replace internal combustion engines for all use cases. Maybe they never will. But there's no reason to say they're a failure until they do.

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Ludwig » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 1:19 pm

Aw C'mon. Read a book or take a nap while the car hurtles down the road at 100 kmph. I can't even take a nap or read a book when someone else is driving let alone when a computer is doing it. Dump trucks on mines? yeah....but someone is driving it while watching on a remote TV and, like automated pallet lifters in warehouses thy follow a fixed path with nothing coming the other way controlled by a human. They are in a managed environment. So....maybe in big cities over limited routes but really..........why bother. The capitalist system works by creating more and more products, for which there is no demand, using more and more of the earth's resources, creating more and more pollution and then convincing gullible (stupid) people that they really must have a system that turns their house lights on before the get home or a car that drives itself while they sit back and scratch their balls (or whatever it is that ladies do). FFS has the whole world gone mad?
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by brothermaynard » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 2:16 pm

Ludwig wrote:
Wed 17 Jan, 2018 1:19 pm
Aw C'mon. Read a book or take a nap while the car hurtles down the road at 100 kmph. I can't even take a nap or read a book when someone else is driving let alone when a computer is doing it.
Nobody says you have to. And with the way some of my mates drive i'm definitely not taking naps in the passenger seat either. But eventually this technology is going to be more reliable than a human driver on an eight hour drive down the Hume. I've got some insight into the stats for driver fatigue monitoring systems on long haul trucks going down the Hume. Professional drivers get fatigued and drift out of their lane every day. Computers don't fatigue, don't blink, don't get distracted.
Dump trucks on mines? yeah....but someone is driving it while watching on a remote TV and, like automated pallet lifters in warehouses thy follow a fixed path with nothing coming the other way controlled by a human. They are in a managed environment.
That's partially correct. They drive along pre-mapped paths in the mine/warehouse and they have sensors on board that make sure they stay on track and stop if anything is out of the ordinary. Nobody is driving them remotely, that would completely defeat the purpose. There are a few controllers for a few dozen trucks. Managed environment = 100% true. That's why level 5 autonomous cars replacing all drivers is still decades away.
So....maybe in big cities over limited routes but really..........why bother. The capitalist system works by creating more and more products, for which there is no demand, using more and more of the earth's resources, creating more and more pollution and then convincing gullible (stupid) people that they really must have a system that turns their house lights on before the get home or a car that drives itself while they sit back and scratch their balls (or whatever it is that ladies do). FFS has the whole world gone mad?
I don't even know where to start with that. For a start i wish you good luck running a successful business creating products for which there is no demand. Now let's keep it simple and just look at increased productivity of millions of people in Australia alone spending say, six hours per week (conservative estimate?) driving themselves to and from work. They could do things that are more productive or fun. I haven't even gotten to the safety benefits yet. Australia's road toll is pretty significant and i bet mechanical failure and wildlife accounts for only a very small percentage of it - human drivers are to blame for the majority of traffic deaths.

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Ludwig » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 4:59 pm

Ahhhh yes........ Leisure time......How wonderful.....and with more leisure, surely there will be less stress and greater happiness. More time to spend with the children "Sorry darling, I can't come to your ballet daddy/mummy has to work back". Yeah tell me about all of those labour saving devices and the leisure which they created. shall we start back in to 50's with the vacuum cleaner or maybe into the 60's with spin dryer washing machine.....oh the 70's with the automatic washing machine/dishwasher and then the microwave (meals in minutes). What will we do with all of the spare time which we have? Oh......and the happiness. people were reasonably happy back in the 50's so with all of the wonderful time saving innovations they must surely now be in a constant state of BLISS. NO........what happened then. Well now both partners have to work to maintain the "things" which they simply must have and without which life wouldn't be worth living. Kids? ........can't afford kids.....maybe when the mortgage is paid off and we get back from our years holiday to Europe. Menopause ? "Already, but I'm only 42". "I'm leaving you". "Sorry, but I'm just not happy". "NOT HAPPY with all of the gizmos, things and knick knacks that we have, how can you not be happy". "I know but (sigh) I just don't feel fulfilled".
so yeah.......save 6 hours a week driving and all will be well. NO IT FN WELL WON'T.
We are being played for SUCKERS by a system that convinces us that we won't be happy unless we have "things" and then offers us more things and more and more. Each time telling us that we cannot possibly be happy unless we have the latest "thing".
OK....so what to do?
DOWNSIZE your life
1...make a list of all that is important in your life
2.. prioritise that list
3.. go to the bottom and delete as many items as you can leaving only those which bring happiness.

My bet is that you will finish up with very few items on that list.
Health (self and family)
Time with loved ones.
Shelter
Food
Clothing
Music/art
Natural environment
(you add your own)
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Ivanerrol » Thu 18 Jan, 2018 7:59 am

Food for thought.
Long article but relevant.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/terrorist ... le/2011171
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by brothermaynard » Thu 18 Jan, 2018 10:38 am

Ludwig wrote:
Wed 17 Jan, 2018 4:59 pm
Ahhhh yes........
Now here we have a completely different argument. Is this whole system making us any happier? That discussion needs a glass of whisky to go with it and i'm sure we would find plenty common ground. Lots of pros and cons. Advances in healthcare keep up alive longer but air pollution gives us health problems. Transport technology allows us to see the world, child mortality is down in most societies, millions of people in China alone are no longer living in poverty. But the oceans are full of plastic, millions of people need anti-depressants to function in western societies and the divide between have/have-not is only growing.

Still - i really dislike driving the Hume and would much rather have a more 'train like' travel experience :)

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by brothermaynard » Thu 18 Jan, 2018 10:39 am

Ivanerrol wrote:
Thu 18 Jan, 2018 7:59 am
Food for thought.
Long article but relevant.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/terrorist ... le/2011171
Thanks for that - that's really interesting! Currently working my way through the long form essay it is based on at https://www.zachaysan.com/writing/2018- ... shing-cars

Engineering control systems that are safe enough to be hooked into the internet 24/7 is quite the challenge. Especially with hardware bugs now being found (read: published) in common processors. There's plenty more security flaws out there that haven't been discovered/made public.

I'm pretty happy planes are not connected to the internet! Oh wait, the new ones are.... And how about the control systems on oil refineries? Or hydro dam control systems? Best not think about it too long and get back to watching Netflix ;)

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Ivanerrol » Thu 18 Jan, 2018 11:23 am

brothermaynard wrote:
Thu 18 Jan, 2018 10:39 am
Ivanerrol wrote:
Thu 18 Jan, 2018 7:59 am
Food for thought.
Long article but relevant.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/terrorist ... le/2011171
Thanks for that - that's really interesting! Currently working my way through the long form essay it is based on at https://www.zachaysan.com/writing/2018- ... shing-cars

Engineering control systems that are safe enough to be hooked into the internet 24/7 is quite the challenge. Especially with hardware bugs now being found (read: published) in common processors. There's plenty more security flaws out there that haven't been discovered/made public.

I'm pretty happy planes are not connected to the internet! Oh wait, the new ones are.... And how about the control systems on oil refineries? Or hydro dam control systems? Best not think about it too long and get back to watching Netflix ;)
Little off topic. : The US defence budget is 10 times larger than Russia's and more than twice as large as China's. How much of that budget is invested into software and cyber warfare?
Most software has been originated in the U.S., China and Russia have stolen software and hardware from the U.S. Who is too know how many backdoors are included in the stolen code?
Russia and particularly China are now boasting about their latest Gen5 aircraft that are supposed to match the F22. The F22 was designed back in the late 80's early '90's How far have the U.S. come since then. There were originally supposed to be over 780 F22's made and deployed. There are only actually around 180. The U.S. has stated they don't need any more. Why? What have they got up there sleeve?
Maybe something like this? https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01- ... -been-made
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Mercmad » Mon 02 Apr, 2018 8:32 am

If you're sitting on top of a lot of toxic batteries ,texting while your Tesla is on autopilot, DO NOT expect the company to have any sympathy if there is a glitch in the system and it kills you in fiery burst of battery chemicals. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 83591.html.

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-p ... esla-0.jpg

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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by AMG » Mon 02 Apr, 2018 9:30 am

Along with all the rhetoric and bullshit about how autonomous vehicles are going to overtake the world and we'll all enjoy them, how about investigating reason and fact as to why they are not ready for public roads.

until the systems that power autonomous vehicles are at an acceptable standard where failures are near zero (think passenger aircraft) then it is simply not an acceptable means of transport. Either you own the risk and take the blame as a driver in control of the vehicle or you try and weasel your way out of it by blaming the manufacturer (who by the way can weasel their way out of compensation through careful manipulation of data)

perhaps take a look at Dave Jones (whinging nerd) EEVBlog vids and see how the latest autonomous vehicle incident in the US has now caused a widespread reaction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjeR13u74Mg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCCmqosHT-o

and our own media take on the issue...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-20/u ... sh/9565586
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Mercmad » Mon 02 Apr, 2018 11:19 am

Interesting to note that Tesla was very fast to the defence by accusing the deceased of driving for 6 seconds with his hands off the wheel . The deceased had already whinged about the car veering at this spot several times before, but Tesla refused to sort it. What has happened is that Tesla has simply done what all cults do, gone to ground and refused to acknowledge any fault . Also, when a Prius or any other electric car is in an accident, it is still live with enough electricity on board to kill you . If you hit one or see one in a smash,ring the authorities and let them know the car is hot and dont touch it unless it's already burning and the passengers cant get out. The fumes given off by gel in the batteries are also very carcinogenic when burning , again another reason not to get too close to these things.

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AMG
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by AMG » Mon 02 Apr, 2018 11:29 am

Mercmad wrote:
Mon 02 Apr, 2018 11:19 am
Interesting to note that Tesla was very fast to the defence by accusing the deceased of driving for 6 seconds with his hands off the wheel . The deceased had already whinged about the car veering at this spot several times before, but Tesla refused to sort it. What has happened is that Tesla has simply done what all cults do, gone to ground and refused to acknowledge any fault . Also, when a Prius or any other electric car is in an accident, it is still live with enough electricity on board to kill you . If you hit one or see one in a smash,ring the authorities and let them know the car is hot and dont touch it unless it's already burning and the passengers cant get out. The fumes given off by gel in the batteries are also very carcinogenic when burning , again another reason not to get too close to these things.
It's a classic case of manufacturers hoodwinking the general public into thinking these vehicles present a 'better' means of transport through 'lower emissions'

except when they have a fault, accident (which renders them a writeoff and the batteries must be scrapped) and then suddenly the REAL cost of emissions (how much mining, manufacturing, etc ad infinitum) are compared to the life of a vehicle that has been on the road for 20 years.

It's really bloody simple. The fuel companies are already sitting on synthesized fuels which have similar properties to what we currently use, and it's not an expensive retrofit to most vehicles (the ones that need retrofitting that is) to ensure a 'low emissions' vehicle.

but the public are just too f-king dumb to learn, or be educated, or believe that big corp hasn't influenced the governments decisions - and this is where the government have failed to serve the best interest of the people - a duty that it is charged with above all else.

This is why we have a problem. Politicians who should be collectively shot en-masse for not serving the interests of the citizens who elect them. I have no tolerance for these useless grovelling societal leeches.

Bear in mind I used to work for the fuckers too, so don't think I am being cynical. :occasion5:
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
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1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
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Ivanerrol
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Ivanerrol » Mon 02 Apr, 2018 2:53 pm

Tesla themselves are in a little bit of financial bother.

They are burning through cash "donated" by "investors at a huge rate.

They need $1.2 billion of new capital by early next year to continue.

Their stock value has gone down viciously and their bond values have decreased as well. Credit rating agencies have reduced their value to Junk Bonds.
This bodes badly when it will come to try and raise that $1.2 billion.

There are already some financial "experts" who are predicting bankruptcy. However I.M.H.O. they will be bought out by some company such as G.M. or thrown a life line by government agencies (Probably Californian).

It's daft government's who are mandating electric and self driving vehicles. Daft governments ignoring financial reality and without the advice of clear thinking engineers. Daft government figures who fall for the Muskrat type Kool Aid.

Oprah for U.S. president in 2020 :banghead: God spare us. :pray:

In other news. - Trump's hand picked skeptic E.P.A. head is working his way to reducing fuel emission standards. The Climate crowd are up in arms.
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by Tony From West Oz » Mon 02 Apr, 2018 10:12 pm

AMG wrote:
Mon 02 Apr, 2018 11:29 am
SNIP
It's a classic case of manufacturers hoodwinking the general public into thinking these vehicles present a 'better' means of transport through 'lower emissions'
except when they have a fault, accident (which renders them a writeoff and the batteries must be scrapped) and then suddenly the REAL cost of emissions (how much mining, manufacturing, etc ad infinitum) are compared to the life of a vehicle that has been on the road for 20 years.

SNIP
Where did you get the impression that the batteries must be scrapped?
They are fully recyclable anyway, if that were the case, but no, the batteries which are not damaged can be re-used, they are the same cells as used in your Li-ion batteries in your cordless drills. I can buy batteries for a Tesla on the second hand market which still have a long service life.
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

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'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
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Re: Self-driving cars anyone?

Post by AMG » Tue 03 Apr, 2018 12:18 am

Tony From West Oz wrote:
Mon 02 Apr, 2018 10:12 pm
AMG wrote:
Mon 02 Apr, 2018 11:29 am
SNIP
It's a classic case of manufacturers hoodwinking the general public into thinking these vehicles present a 'better' means of transport through 'lower emissions'
except when they have a fault, accident (which renders them a writeoff and the batteries must be scrapped) and then suddenly the REAL cost of emissions (how much mining, manufacturing, etc ad infinitum) are compared to the life of a vehicle that has been on the road for 20 years.

SNIP
Where did you get the impression that the batteries must be scrapped?
They are fully recyclable anyway, if that were the case, but no, the batteries which are not damaged can be re-used, they are the same cells as used in your Li-ion batteries in your cordless drills. I can buy batteries for a Tesla on the second hand market which still have a long service life.
When the vehicle is a writeoff or cell container is damaged due to a vehicular accident, the batteries contained within that structure are required by law to be scrapped. i.e. cannot be used in another vehicle.
Tesla recycle portions of their defective units (by replacing individual faulty cells) and have been doing so since they first marketed. It's part of the Elon Musk brand hype and BS.
Tesla's umicore process is also not available here in australia. in fact no auto manufacturer has a facility to process any lithium polymer battery in australia. They have to be returned to the manufacturer.
We have to ship our products (us made) failed cell batteries overseas (RTM) via sea, due to the IATA regs defining the Ah limit on cells - when they are not placed inside a network device chassis. When they are inside a device chassis (and the battery is a module), the issue is even more complicated for shipping vs volume vs containment. There are limits on the material density which is allowed to be shipped per cubic volume measurement.
Removing the cell container from a vehicle is an entirely different story.
Have a look at the prius and camry, and see how viable it is to remove the structure to replace defective individual cells - that's just a service cost, not an insurance assessment on a damaged vehicle.

However, in the case of the insurance assessment, the vehicles are written off (WOVR) far more frequently, due to the risk from potential damage by repairs, as much as it is through fire caused through electrical dead short. Despite the cells having protection, it has not proven to be 100% failsafe even though it is improving somewhat since 2010.

a lead acid battery is recycleable (scrap metal)
a lithium battery is not easily recycleable, without material safety handling issues addressed.
nickel metal hydride batteries are still not easily recycleable here, although nickel recovery is becoming more important due to metal prices. It is expected that nickel recycling is going to surge, since russian billionaire started funding the stockpiling of cobalt (used in auto lithium battery manufacturing)since about 2015.

There are legals reasons for not allowing the battery re-use in automotive applications, there are safety issues surrounding a battery 'pack' which has sustained an impact, and there have been enough fires caused through battery pack damage (not just tesla) in EV's since they were produced. Since it's also a part of the safety testing to gain vehicle compliance, it's not an issue that is overlooked, and the safety standards are certainly more prevalent, mostly due to the threat of electrocution to rescue officials than it is to vehicluar occupants.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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