M119 5litre / M117gen2 500/560 Head flow rates

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kimrh
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M119 5litre / M117gen2 500/560 Head flow rates

Post by kimrh » Sat 20 Dec, 2014 12:51 pm

Trying to determine the maximum flow rate on a M119 5litre engine heads (mucking around with T/body/MAF /plenum inlet size maths)
Assuming the 960/970/980 are similar although i am aware of slight changes in the cams/lift/inlet valve size on the later engines for emissions purposes only and not performance.
I have found a chart (in Norwegian language i think) attached below if anyone who is well versed in this field can inform me of the total # for the engine (i am not an expert at reading these)

Also be interested to find out if anyone has the flow rate on the stock Gen2 500/560 heads as well?

This rough guide to a 303ci engine with max revs at say 6500 and assuming 100% VE calculates around 570cfm
http://www.pcengines.com.au/calculators ... %20CFM.htm

Assuming using a top quality Throttle body like Accufab or BBK -they flow around
60mm = 526cfm
65mm = 616cfm
70mm = 726cfm
75mm = 845cfm
80mm = i don't have that data on that size but assume around 950cfm mark
90mm = 1225cfm

The electronic T/Body on the M119-980 engine is aprox 76mm and the lower plenum chamber opening hole is 77mm but that lower plenum chamber is shallow (not a lot of volume) with the long intake runners doing the work of speeding up air velocity into the heads ( I doubt that swirl matters on an EFI set-up with the injectors squirting fuel direct onto the valves)
I guess MB kept the single T/Blade diameter down in width for better throttle response in the lower rev range versus going any larger.

I am keen to explore if a larger cable operated 4 x throttle blade / progressive staged opening blades with a 1" x 4 barrel spacer (1,000fcm is smallest i can find) and aftermarket calibrated MAF would be of any advantage with a custom tune running a Haltech 2000 ECU and custom dual exhaust back from the 980 headers (looking at this set up for my white 500 SEC)

Also i think those M119-980 injectors are only around 19lb - the 1997 injector is a white body x two nozzle Siemens injector - The MB part # was 000-078-83-23. However The current aftermarket catalogs are showing that the current/orderable Bosch equivalent is Bosch # 0-280-156-024, which is a narrow, plastic-bodied, blue-color injector ??? Confusing
Amazing when you think what lb injectors other 5litre engines makes are operating with

Just doing some R&D exploratory work at this stage on the M119 ditching the MB electronic T/Body and going to a cable system with the Haltech ECU
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Last edited by kimrh on Sun 21 Dec, 2014 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M119 5litre / M117gen2 500/560 Head flow rates

Post by Lance » Sat 20 Dec, 2014 3:36 pm

Finnish or Estonian, not Norwegian.
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Re: M119 5litre / M117gen2 500/560 Head flow rates

Post by CraigB » Sat 20 Dec, 2014 9:41 pm

and I just wanted to say Kim that I read it, but I can't help! but I did read it and thinking about it.
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Re: M119 5litre / M117gen2 500/560 Head flow rates

Post by cuisses » Sat 20 Dec, 2014 10:16 pm

I too have read it, and I was somewhat confused about what is being asked. I teach a little bit of this in my car physics course, but I suspect this goes a bit beyond what I usually try and teach.

Am I right in thinking (in layman's terms) you want to get more air into the cylinders by using a different throttle body and different "pipes" connecting the throttle body to the intake valves. Is that right? And, you want to make sure that the throttle body you choose and the pipes you choose can actually shift all the air you need at a given rev rate?

I did learn that "nosto" is Finnish for "lift" - presumably valve lift in mm.

I can easily calculate the amount of air needed for any engine at any speed, given the volumetric efficiency, but you already have a calculator for that. As an aside, you do realise that the volumetric efficiency can be greater than 100% - because the inertia of the inflowing air rams it into the cylinders, but 100% is a good estimate.

Sorry I am not being very helpful - partly because I don't have the question clear in my head.
David Williams

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kimrh
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Re: M119 5litre / M117gen2 500/560 Head flow rates

Post by kimrh » Sun 21 Dec, 2014 12:16 am

Sorry the whole equation of matching an EFI intake manifold / Throttle Body / MAF / intake induction to the engines CFM capacity
Now we all know this can get complex when moving away from a factory tune and factory intake components
But assuming no change to the factory heads/cam/headers
A lot of M119 owners grizzle that the M119 intake design restricts the potential to improve torque and HP of these quad cam engines that are said to flow well from the factory.
When Tim over in NZ first starting playing with his W126 SEC WB track car with its M119 engine - he gained +100HP from going to a 4 x throttle body intake and a custom Lynx ECU dyno tune and less restrictive exhaust.
(It was his only project engine 2 that he went all out - 6.3 litre M119 with big custom cams/ 102mm bore/ M117 crank-rods/forged pistons/12.1 comp /custom headers etc etc that ended up around 600hp - bit this was really set up for racing and peak power in the upper rev range as that engine was consistently pulling 7500rpm)
Not what we are talking about here with a street car

So i did some accurate measuring tonight on the stock M119-980 intake manifold
The lower plenum chamber holds 2,800mil or 2.8 litres of water - plenum opening 77mm (T/Body mount opening)
Intake runners measure 390mm from top of water level to face that bolts to the head
opening of the runners in the plenum 50mm that narrows done to 40mm approaching the join to the upper runner 80mm up (so it has narrowed to 40mm by aprox 60mm of distance)
upper runner continues with 40mm diameter until about 80mm before the opening -then it starts changing into an oval shape which exists at the face with a port of 49mm x 29mm
There is an outward shaped recess also at the port for the injector head that squirts fuel direct onto the valve head -but for measurement sake the port is 49mm x 29mm at the face
So at this point i have a guy in USA who is going to punch in the data and run some flow simulation tests to determine the velocity profile and VE efficiency of the standard intake with its long runners.

I am sure MB did a lot of R&D work back in the day to come up such an intake
However it would have been taking into consideration emissions requirements / EGR needs / fuel economy / smooth running engine with good throttle response at lower rev range

Where i am coming from now is with the chance to do some R&D work on the M119-980 custom tuned by an aftermarket Haltech 2000 ECU
I need to ditch the factory electronic 75mm T/Body and ditch the EGR
And look at the options open to an aftermarket T/Body + aftermarket MAF + customised M119 aircleaner intake
So the whole set-up is matched to the engines capacity and maintaining good street torque manners
In other words do i leave the plenum opening at 77mm or bore out to 80mm / do i stick with a 75mm t/body or go out to 80mm

Or perhaps remove the whole intake and explore an 8 x side draft Throttle body set-up - pinched from an LSI kit with a highly modified customised M119 upper intake chopped up and modified which is a lot of work and perhaps no gain with factory spec heads/cams etc. (The BMW S65 was a great example of this - but downdraft- see pic)

Hence why asking for some engine info and head flow stats to match a T/Body and MAF
(and if the 19lb injectors are sufficient in the equation or already on max duty cycle with factory tune?)
Just pulling idea's /info at this stage but iam hoping a custom tune might yield some more torque & HP
(I already have a Haltech 2000 purchased for this engine and an aftermarket PCM 2000 to run the 5 speed 722.620 trans)
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87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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kimrh
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Re: M119 5litre / M117gen2 500/560 Head flow rates

Post by kimrh » Sun 21 Dec, 2014 3:14 am

Interesting way of conducting a test bench run on an M119-980 engine out of the car - not sure how he managed to hook that up to actually run?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjbaDGheCiU
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M119 5litre / M117gen2 500/560 Head flow rates

Post by niibe » Tue 26 Apr, 2016 9:08 pm

I am also concerning same things like you !
You might be interested attached ITB.

Niibe

http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/
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kimrh
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Re: M119 5litre / M117gen2 500/560 Head flow rates

Post by kimrh » Wed 27 Apr, 2016 9:38 am

Niibe is a dedicated and serious M119 engine performance enthusiast based in Japan.
That is one of his engines fitted with the multi throttle body set up made by "AT Power Throttles Ltd" based in the UK specifically for the M119 engine (not sure which version he has 960/970/980?)
He got one of the last 2 new crate motors direct from AMG in Germany back around 2005... complete long block, zero miles, for something crazy like USD$4k back then.
Anyway - if you poke around on Niibes Facebook pics, you can see his highly-modified engine was putting out 300kw to the wheels, or ~400hp. Depending on what powertrain loss you use, that translates into roughly 490hp at the crank. Not bad for a factory intake with those long runners.

Not sure what the end result was with those that multi throttle set-up -but we are talking a street car here - not track. So it would be interesting to find out the end result after tuning and testing?
https://www.facebook.com/E500E/?fref=ts
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87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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