AMG M103 motors, any experts?

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vanir
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AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by vanir » Sat 04 Oct, 2014 3:19 pm

Some talk with good details of the M104 AMG in the W124 forum inspired me to ask about the M103 AMG builds in here.

I'm working on scant details and a lot of assumptions about the M103 AMG motors. The idea is, now I've got a used M103.983 into the W201 with the 22/62 cam in, I'm looking at rebuilding next. Most importantly rebuilt head/valve gear for longevity but I'd like to at least have new rings/bearings in the bottom end, want to chase another 30hp or so (headwork, comp shave, fabbed headers), but all over the labour expense and size of the job means I may as well throw in other parts for as close-to AMG spec as I can get the 983, even a couple of grand for pistons is okay by me since the whole thing is going to cost thousands anyway from what my experience has been thus far, so I'd rather just throw the whole wallet at it and get the final results that I actually want the first time out. Not 2 grand here, 2 grand there and it winds up costing more in the long run going piecemeal for the results I'm going to chase either way.

I want like 250bhp in this 201/M103, more really. I'll put a 30/70 in and swap to a manual if I have to, but I want the power, n/a, no turbos, no more engine conversions, the motor should have it if I can get that power from an old Holden 202. This motor is much more n/a hp potential than a bloody 202.

So the AMG M103 motors. I've seen some specs for a 3.0 litre version and 3.2 litre version, basically they look like stock 98x motors with 10:1 compression and a cam, I'm guessing a 0.5-1mm head shave will get the compression, I've already got a roughly-AMG spec cam in, should be good for 215PS in the 3.0 and 230PS with the oversize pistons of the 3.2 build.
But I think those are mid-80s AMG builds for the 124, the AMG 3.2 in the W201 didn't appear until 91-3 from what I've heard and had more like 250PS. There's a guy on 190rev who posted about his, england based iirc, has 250PS all plated and everything (and it was either his or another stock one I read about that actually returned 255 on an engine brake in practise).

Okay I've basically laid out the giant can of crazy that is my head. Are there some M103 AMG experten who can steer me in the right directions and provide some real build info/details about now? Piston part numbers? Did they use stock rods? Is the 3.2 re-sleeved or overbored? Are valves/springs/seats stock? Any details are tremendously helpful, before I finalize the work order on the bits to be reco'd/rebuilt.
W201.029 w/ M103.983
22/62 cam w/11mm lift
63mm exhaust
215 and 235 kumho tyres.

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by oz coz » Sun 05 Oct, 2014 12:08 am

I am no expert on the AMG 3.2 but courtesy of Greg in Oz, I have a copy of the factory supplement on this 190E model but it is written in German. I got the copy to research doing something along the same direction that you are going. The translation of the supplement will be pretty slow going as I have little to no skills in this area.
But what I can make out is that outside of the engine bore and stroke being virtually identical to the M104, little more than a different camshaft sprocket and a freer flowing exhaust system were used. It seems likely that it has a 104 crankshaft and 104 rods - not sure on the pistons due to 12v versus 24v. But plenty could still be in the translation.
The body and suspension stuff is in it with suspension part numbers.
oz coz

1986 190E 2.3-16 Blue-Black
1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by vanir » Thu 09 Oct, 2014 9:48 pm

Actually another question popped up that the workshop manual might shed light on...

What brakes were used in the AMG 3.2?
W201.029 w/ M103.983
22/62 cam w/11mm lift
63mm exhaust
215 and 235 kumho tyres.

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by Greg in Oz » Fri 10 Oct, 2014 12:24 am

Oz coz mentioned in his post that I have the factory workshop manual supplement for the AMG 190E 3.2. It was one of four manuals I purchased recently (the others were the supplements for the AMG 300E/CE/TE 3.4, the 124036 500E, and the early CIS-E). Three are in English however the 190E 3.2 manual is in German.

I have just had a quick look at the AMG 190E 3.2 manual and it appears that the front brakes used the 4 piston callipers from the 300E-24 (124031) with 295mm x 22mm rotors and the rear brakes were the twin piston callipers with 278mm x 9mm rotors from the 300TE (124090).
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by MAX-230 » Fri 10 Oct, 2014 11:07 am

vanir wrote:Actually another question popped up that the workshop manual might shed light on...

What brakes were used in the AMG 3.2?
Here's some info using 400e brakes.

http://www.2phast.com/190e/brakes.htm

Cheers.

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by oz coz » Fri 10 Oct, 2014 11:26 am

From the supplement, the correct wheels and tyres to go with an AMG 190E 3.2 are "hammer" style 7.5J X 16 H2 ET 40 part no H WA124 400 06 02 and 225/45 ZR 16. These will fit the 24v callipers. I have a set and they were tried on a 320CE and cleared everything.
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1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by vanir » Fri 10 Oct, 2014 11:24 pm

I'm guessing the guideline authorities will use for roadworthiness of engine capacity increase will be the AMG 3.2 as the next closest thing to a 3.0 conversion and I don't want any trouble with re-registering.

It might be easiest to buy a full set of 400E calipers/rotors than fronts from a 300CE-24 and rears from a 300TE, but was the 400E even sold in Australia? Is it a W124 or W210? Will the stock master cylinder and brake lines be good?
I have 7.5Jx17 ET40 rims so they should give clearance if the 16" hammers do.
MB Spares has been terrific sourcing parts at good prices.
Is the 400E brakes a good choice, or is it better to stick with the AMG layout?
W201.029 w/ M103.983
22/62 cam w/11mm lift
63mm exhaust
215 and 235 kumho tyres.

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by Greg in Oz » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 10:28 am

vanir wrote:...It might be easiest to buy a full set of 400E calipers/rotors than fronts from a 300CE-24 and rears from a 300TE, but was the 400E even sold in Australia? Is it a W124 or W210? ...
The 400E was a Series 2 W124 manufactured only in LHD and therefore not sold in Australia. In the Series 3 W124 it became an E420 and, as the model number suggests, it had a 4.2 litre version of the M119 V8.

I am fairly sure the brakes used on the 400E/E420 were essentially the same as those used on the 24 valve (M104) six cylinder versions of the W124 anyway.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by vanir » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 11:37 am

Hey thanks for taking the time to answer these questions, it helped when I went to see a good mechanic this morning.
As it turned out he actually had two W201 cossies in for brake conversions, a 2.5-16 up on the hoist getting a 300-24 conversion and a 2.3-16 in a bay waiting for a 300E conversion (sliding piston instead of 4-spot whatever that means).
All his bays are full of 124, 126, 123 and 201 models, been so difficult finding a local mechanic who really knows these older ones.
Serendipitous indeed!

He cleared things up and it sounds like either the 300E or 300E-24 brakes are the way to go, the former being cheaper and more readily available and both increasing stopping power enough to more than qualify for an increased engine capacity roadworthiness.
I do like the idea of 300-24 calipers, but apparently they can sometimes be hard to source. I'll send an email to MB Spares and see what they can do for a set of hub assemblies and a master cylinder. The mechanic will put ADR approved braided lines in and set the whole thing up, just basically re-doing the job he's currently doing on the 2.5-16 cossie.
I'll get him to put new bushes in everywhere underneath the car while it's apart too. Rubber are better than nolathane/neoprane/whatevers isn't it? I don't do track work, just highway/road driving.
Probably a good time to get a coil cut off the 300E springs currently in the car, they're a bit high. Last ones too low, these ones too high, I don't want to have to buy another set.

Part reason he suggested regular 300E brakes is because he has a spare set in a car he's parting out and would do a good price. But I think I want the better 300-24 ones if MB Spares can supply them.
W201.029 w/ M103.983
22/62 cam w/11mm lift
63mm exhaust
215 and 235 kumho tyres.

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by AMG » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 3:36 pm

Just go see that mercedes wrecker in reservoir.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=11237&p=98823&hili ... ade#p98823
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by Greg in Oz » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:23 pm

vanir wrote:... it helped when I went to see a good mechanic this morning.
As it turned out he actually had two W201 cossies in for brake conversions, a 2.5-16 up on the hoist getting a 300-24 conversion and a 2.3-16 in a bay waiting for a 300E conversion (sliding piston instead of 4-spot whatever that means)...
I can understand the 24v brake conversion on the 2.5-16 however the 300E conversion on the 2.3-16 doesn't make sense. The conversion you mention suggests changing modified 2.3-16 brakes back to standard. The 190E 2.3-16 (and 2.5-16) came standard with the same size brakes as the 300E. The fronts were a single piston floating calliper of the same appearance as standard W201 front brakes, just a little larger in rotor diameter and pad area. The 300E-24 (and 320 that followed) came with fixed (rather than floating) 4 piston callipers.

The difference between fixed and floating callipers is fixed have the body of the calliper rigidly mounted and have at least 2 pistons (one piston operating the pad on each side of the rotor) whereas a floating calliper can slide and need have only a single piston operating a pad on one side of the rotor and the body of the calliper moving with the pad on the other side. The standard brakes on a W201 (and W124 excluding 24v and V8 models) have single piston floating front callipers and twin piston fixed rear callipers. The W124 24v and V8 front callipers are 4 piston fixed.

The reason 300TE rear brakes are often used for an upgrade is the S124 wagon had larger rear brakes than the W201 and W124 sedan.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by vanir » Sun 12 Oct, 2014 8:34 am

He did mention the two cossies had only come into the country in the last few weeks. The 2.5 is going to be for road/race and the 2.3 I think he said was his brother's or brother-in-law's car, perhaps it was modified by the previous owner and is being restored back to standard factory spec as a collectable? I didn't really ask very much about them.
He did explain the 300E brakes are basically the same thing as the stock 2.6 brakes but have slightly larger discs and more pad area, so would increase braking abilities, ie. this was the conversion he first suggested for mine but I liked the idea of having the same thing the AMG has.
I did relate the AMG spec of rear 300TE brakes but he thought they were the same as the regular 24v rears.

He did mention for correct bias it's best to change out the master cylinder type from the car the brakes came from as well. Is there any advice about this bit, is the 24v master cylinder specific to that model? Do I need to get a brand new one?
I've emailed MB Spares for a set of 24v hub/brake assemblies (I might ammend it and ask them for rears from a 300TE).



And lol no I won't be going to that place in reservoir o_O some things you just put well behind you and never think of them or drive past there again. Aside from all the engine trouble that guy gave me, I'm still not getting how the brake bands in my first 3 gears suddenly got terribly worn overnight when they were just as grabby as 4th the day I dropped it off. A trans specialist showed me a box full of 722.4 internals however and pulled out a gear coupling that has an alloy part pop-riveted to a steel part, which is a lot smaller in the 722.4 than the 722.3 and explained how that's the part a modded M103 is going to chew up and spit out as I get more power out of the engine (I'm on about 200PS and chasing 230 in coming weeks). He said it's basically a 4-cylinder trans in the 201 which is a fact you just can't escape, so it seems in any case I'll have to do a manual conversion, ergo even if by mistake (sic) the reservoir guy mixed up my good trans with a much higher mileage 722.4 laying around his yard during the engine change (I did go in when the engine was being put together, there are trans and motors literally laying around all over the shop and you get a sense of nobody cares attitude about everything, I should've laid off going there until I knew them better), it'll last long enough to do a manual swap over the next 12mths.
W201.029 w/ M103.983
22/62 cam w/11mm lift
63mm exhaust
215 and 235 kumho tyres.

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by AMG » Sun 12 Oct, 2014 9:51 am

Still a bit of a sore point eh... :occasion5:

Seriously, all you really need to do is use a 16v booster, and 24v fronts, 400E rears (because they are vented). It's more than enough in a 201... and keeps the unsprung mass low.

To get 400E rears, means looking to the US.
24v fronts - easy peasy. loads of w124's and plenty of R129 24v parts around.

But, before you go running off buying up the world supply of brake bits.....

If you really want to go OTT:
On the front, I *would* try searching for the alloy brembo 500E front callipers & get some dimpled/slotted front rotors - but... in doing so, you would need to upgrade the spindles & hubs to 500E / 500SL.
Then you would need the 500E booster and master cylinder. All in all, an expensive upgrade for any aussie based car.

The simplest option is to go for the 24v fronts and 400E rears, which is what I run on the 16v. There is no need for the vented rears unless you drive mountain passes every day.
The 300TE callipers & rotors are a good compromise and easily located.
But my biggest gripe is that the really useful part about the upgrade doesn't actually come from the rotor & calliper upgrade itself -

Braided hoses are a must. I'd actually do them before a calliper upgrade, or at the very least the same time as the upgrade.
And if you are really going to drive the car hard, then consider reducing the stress on the hub & spindle, by upgrading the spindles & hubs (and probably the LCA as well if budget allows) to the R129 500SL parts.
In fact, a whole front axle assembly from an r129 500SL would be an advantage in this instance, then all you would need is the booster / master cyl.

You could get away with the 2.6 booster and master cyl on the 24v front calliper upgrade by itself, but I'd recommend a booster change if you upgrade the rears as well.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by vanir » Sun 12 Oct, 2014 10:08 am

So to recap my order for MB Spares I'll need:

pair used W124.031 24v (M104) front brake/hub assemblies
pair used S124.090 300TE rear brake/hub assemblies
rotors and pads will be changed for new, just need to ensure all the parts for the conversion are there.

16v brake booster. Is this the same as the W124 booster or unique to the cossie? If it is hard to source or terribly expensive, is there an alternative? Do I need new or used?

W124 master cylinder for correct brake bias? Do I need a new one or used? Is this a superfluous requirement?

The mechanic sources ADR approved braided lines and can get more, he's using them on the other conversions, showed them to me and said it was important.
W201.029 w/ M103.983
22/62 cam w/11mm lift
63mm exhaust
215 and 235 kumho tyres.

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by Greg in Oz » Sun 12 Oct, 2014 9:57 pm

For what it's worth, I just looked at the AMG manual again and, whilst it's in written in German, it appears to state that the master cylinder was the same unit as fitted to the 201029 (190E 2.6). That would save you the expense of replacing the master cylinder and booster.

Also, just to throw some more food for thought at you, keep in mind that bigger brakes means more unsprung weight. Considerably bigger brakes also require bigger wheels which can also mean more unsprung weight. More unsprung weight is detrimental to road holding. I therefore am of the opinion that brakes should be the right size for the car and no larger. If you can drive your car hard and it doesn't run out of brakes and it is capable of locking the brakes (or triggering the ABS) on the most grippy of surfaces with the best tyres you are ever likely to run, then I argue that the brakes are as good as they need be for you purposes. Anything bigger may look great but in reality is just adding unsprung weight.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by vanir » Mon 13 Oct, 2014 8:23 pm

I do very much like the idea of going for an AMG clone type of spec. I've emailed an inquiry for prices on 300E-24 front brakes and 300TE rear ones, will be using my stock master cylinder and booster as related from the AMG manual.

My next question from the AMG manual would be part numbers for 3.2 pistons, rods and crank? Is the motor resleeved or just overbored? Doesn't it use the same stroke as the 3.0 with just a bore increase? Is it using M104 rods and crank, from the 3.0 M104? What's the difference between these and M103 3.0 rods and crank?

The head is getting a rebuild, whilst at it I wanted to at least put new rings/bearings in the bottom end. Since going to all that trouble, is it worth it to try to convert it to AMG 3.2 spec with the bottom end?
W201.029 w/ M103.983
22/62 cam w/11mm lift
63mm exhaust
215 and 235 kumho tyres.

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by oz coz » Mon 13 Oct, 2014 8:34 pm

The AMG 3.2 M103 uses an M104 crank as for the M104 3.2 and the same bore size of the M104 3.2. I haven't got the drawings and specifications of the pistons in the M104 3.2 so as yet cannot tell if the tops of the pistons are the same or different.The supplement does have the specifications of pistons used in the AMG M103 3.2.
oz coz

1986 190E 2.3-16 Blue-Black
1990 300TE Diamond Blue
1987 190E 2.6 Signal Red

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by vanir » Tue 30 Jun, 2015 8:41 pm

Been away a while.

Firstly, thanks for that info everyone and the last message, Oz Coz. Cheers fellers, it was a massive help.

The engine build is about to get done, sorting details and getting ready to slap down a deposit just now. Looks like I might get a brand spanking new M103.98x block and pistons. Rest is coming from a ca.300,000kms 983 because car is a daily and I can only afford a week off for the engine swap, not many weeks to rebuild the one in it. Full recondition, with the new block and pistons. Mechanic doing the job races W123 and W124 and works on plenty of 201 racers, dailies, stockers and projects. Head is getting flow benched and cleaned up as per his track car. Crank is getting knife-edged and radiused. Rods lightened. Reciprocal mass rebalanced. Intake manifold is getting bead blasted, cleaned and matched. My Dbilas 22/62 cam is getting swapped over. Exhaust is getting fabbed headers but that's after this at another place. Already 2.5" with bigger downpipes and sports cat for the rest of the exhaust, it's the best sounding part of the car, sounds like a V12 in tunnels at WOT, or one of those big Jag sixes with the 2" SU carbs. Anyhoo...

Anything I need to look at, consider, or am forgetting in a performance build M103 AMG clone?

Finally, an update on the brake conversion: oh frak me, these brakes are unbelievable. Wound up using 300-24 front/back with the braided lines. Feller recut the springs for me and got it sitting so absolutely perfectly, after the number of times I changed springs trying to get it right I almost had a tear in my eye. And it handles brilliantly, new bushes and joints and other bits I forgot probably help there big time. It's like it's on rails. I can't believe the speed I can confidently take corners at. And the braking, omg. A brand spanking new sportscar couldn't outbrake this car, no way. You'd need race pads and stuff like that, I mean a few car lengths from 100, stomp and it stops dead, it'll put someone through the windscreen before failing to pull up. Tyres are good, and I never have any weight in the car, but still. It's bloody incredible to me on the road, these brakes. I don't remember a 911 turbo braking this good.

The brake feel is so dramatically different to the stock 2.6, that one felt spongey, I never liked the feel despite accepting they were already very powerful brakes being a light car having 4w-discs and ABS, sized as good as any large sedan sold locally, stock it was much better than a Ford or a Holden anything in braking. But I never like the spongey feel and how far the pedal went under heavy braking.
The change is immeasurable. Under braking I feel like I'm in a race car now. Between the suspension (124 i6 hd springs, hd bilsteins, new bushes/components), tyres (215, 235) and these brakes, in tight circuits weaving a line around traffic to work it handles absolutely amazing. Only a serious hot hatch, current model, like a Golf GTI, AMG A45 and things like that have any shot, any shot and sticking with me. Now they kick my butt on an open course I know, some of this is driver and luck related being in traffic conditions. But just with an opened up exhaust, a 22/62 cam, refreshed perishables, but a tired old 3.0 it kinda gets up and boogies on the way to work, man. I mean it seriously has to be a pretty fast car by today's standards to give it a go. But all of that is what it is, the handling being so good, the braking just amazing, relatively little performance, my estimate is 190-215bhp depending on the day (upper end in cooler weather so pretty good nowadays but shithouse back in summer), hey that AMG 3.2 must be a real monster. Because once I've finished the engine soon I'm aiming at that spec as my target and I was hoping it would be a little bit "boy racer" ie. what I used call a bit of a monster. Like my Torana with the XU1 engine, 250bhp isn't that fast against Clevelands at the Dandy drags but to me, it was a monster, really lumpy cam, lifted the front/left wheel a bit on a hard takeoff, it was a beastie, not not that powerful really. I liked it.
W201.029 w/ M103.983
22/62 cam w/11mm lift
63mm exhaust
215 and 235 kumho tyres.

kiqnkf
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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by kiqnkf » Wed 01 Jul, 2015 9:01 pm

Good to hear you are moving forward...

I have the 300e-24 4 spots and 295mm rear brakes on my m104 3.2 manual 190e, the thing stops well, time after time, no matter how hard I flog it down Arthur's seat or Boneo rd...

I can't help but think about all the money you will spend on all this atmo gear - LPG and turbo may well be the same price, with much better performance and cheaper to run.

When I turbo the grey car, (Haltech is on, hoping to dyno in next few days) I will ring you, and come visit in it. I still owe you a whooped ass, IIRC!!!! :Doh:

I just got a pair of 4 spots for the 300ce too.. They are great!! I am planning an lpg/turbo/water intercooler/ghetto ignition system for this. Ordered copper head gasket yesterday, already have 12.9 head bolts, ordered dbilas valve springs today. Noteworthy, new dbilas camshafts not currently available ATM :( No ETA... Got shift kit for 722.3, we'll go the MAX on it.

Be nice to have this running by the end of the year...

kiqnkf
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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by kiqnkf » Sun 10 Apr, 2016 6:56 pm

For higher compression, why not a late "open chamber" 103 3.0 bottom end, and an early "closed chamber" head?

How did you go with the before and after head porting?

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by 260e3 » Fri 30 Dec, 2016 8:42 pm

HI
also interested in the porting results. the heads look pretty good to start with ? any flow data?
also Vanir - how is that 22/61 cam at idle - for traffic in a 3.0 ? a bit lumpy perhaps?

thanks

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by kiqnkf » Sat 31 Dec, 2016 8:48 am

Heyya 260e3,

I went for a ride in Vanir's 190e, with the 3.0 in it, and it was barely noticible, but went quite well after I tuned it. I thought my 2.6 was fast, I got out of the hole first, and it didn't take long for him to gain on me, and vanish off into the sunset...

I have ordered (in October, mind you) the stage 6 (296 degree, 105 lobe sep, 12.2mm lift one) DBilas camshaft for my 300ce likely-to-be-haltech-elite-2500 turbo. DBilas had a special on, (and it's on again, 10% off) so I also ordered a spare set of valve springs, as I got a set previously for when I reconditioned the 3.0L head.

6-Zyl. 260 - 300 ( engine M 103 ) hydro

Applikation : Rallye

/Oval track

Duration: : 296
Peak timing: : 105
Valve lift: : 12,2
Lift at TDC: :
Valve timing: : 43/73 - 73/4

It isn't near as expensive as I thought it would be, we don't pay "VAT", so that comes off when you register/log in, it was like $720....

I wouldn't go any bigger than the 11.7mm lift 280 cam for the street, even then, might be best to stick with the 264, like Vanir's, as I KNOW his works with the stock K-Jet... Oh, and replace your 2.6 with a 3.0...

260e3
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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by 260e3 » Sat 31 Dec, 2016 3:00 pm

thanks for that.
the 264 sounds good then . the 260 is still my daily drive.
i am going to upgrade to the 3tlr . i might do an engine build post for it ?
Last edited by 260e3 on Sat 31 Dec, 2016 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kiqnkf
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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by kiqnkf » Sat 31 Dec, 2016 4:34 pm

AMG wrote:You could get away with the 2.6 booster and master cyl on the 24v front calliper upgrade by itself, but I'd recommend a booster change if you upgrade the rears as well.

I've got the 24v fronts and the e320 (295mm-ish) rears on mine with the standard booster/master, and it's great.

kiqnkf
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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by kiqnkf » Sat 31 Dec, 2016 4:35 pm

260e3 wrote:might to a build post for it ?
I don't understand this...

260e3
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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by 260e3 » Sat 31 Dec, 2016 6:57 pm

Sorry - edited above

kiqnkf
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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by kiqnkf » Sat 31 Dec, 2016 8:22 pm

Have you ordered the cam yet? In 3-ish years, this is the only time (as in late 2016) I have seen them have a "sale"..... Get vavle springs too, just to be safe...

Have you seen the turbobandit turbo kits?

You can get away fairly cheaply with LPG (blow through a 400-440 cfm GasResearch carb w/2 convertors) and an MSD6 BTM...

http://turbobandit.com/Mercedes%20Tunin ... /mercakit1

with a BOV and oil line kit...

kiqnkf
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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by kiqnkf » Sun 01 Jan, 2017 3:29 pm

Actually, if you wait, this year I will put the big cam in before I inject it, just to see if it I can get it to work with the k-jet... Won't be any time soon though...

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by Mercmad » Tue 03 Jan, 2017 10:53 am

Kjet will deliver as much as you want. in reality the Kjet is only working at 10% of it's potential power delivery . look at cars like porsche,ferrari etc who all used it. Peter Bowers in Sydney http://bowerpower.com.au/ has achieved 700HP from a Kjet equipped volvo in the past. There are people who fit electronic injection in an effort to increase ther power but it's often a waste of money . Keep it simple and you will enjoy it more .

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by 260e3 » Sun 08 Jan, 2017 11:33 pm

just to clarify on head and block combos
i understand you can raise the compression by using an early head with later pistons.
but can you do the same with a 940 ( 260e) head on the 983?
does anyone know the differences apart from bore.
i know on other motors the difference can be as simple as the head gasket and a couple of water gallery mods?

thanks

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by kiqnkf » Mon 09 Jan, 2017 12:14 am

From what I understand, the 2.6 head valves are smaller, both engines 80.2mm stroke, 2.6L has 82.9mm bore, 3.0L has 88.5mm bore, hence less cylinder space for valves, with increased shrouding on larger valves.

You just put a closed (early) chamber head on a late 3.0L (open chamber) motor, to get more comp. how much more, I have no idea..... Best to use E85 or LPG if you're going to go that route.

The 2.6's are really a crap motor (here come the arguements) they lack standing start torque. The difference between a 2.6 and a 3.0 is very noticeable. Got me buggered why Mercedes even bothered making them. I wouldn't even consider using the 2.6 head on a 3.0 motor, I imagine the larger valve cost alone would make me cry.

Before I spent 1 cent on a 2.6, I would think about finding a good 3.0L, reco the head, (seats/guides/valvestem seals/port job) and put the whole motor in. You can do the cam later (maybe do the springs now too) as they drop in from the top, not slide in from the front.... You'll not regret it!!! (you'll hate yourself while you are performing the swap, mine took 11 weeks by myself in total, problem after problem, but seriously 5-6 days on a hoist, next time I would put the bottom end in, then the head on, or do the engine/gearbox together, but you need a lot of flat room to do it that way)

Hey MercMad, I would consider the k-jet compatible with the giant camshaft, ONLY if I could tune the idle (duty cycle) and the EHA to get it to work. I would consider it a "failure" if I had to pay someone else to do it, as I am going EFI for the turbo anyway, and would not spend the cash getting the k-jet worked out, when I can install/tune EFI myself.

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by 260e3 » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 8:34 pm

Thanks for the reply.
i agree that the 2.6 does lack some torque - mine will tow the race car ok but you do end up revving the hell our of it - doesn't seem to mind though...
.. i am going to upgrade to the 3.0 so i might be pleasantly surprised..
i once saw a G wagon with a 2.6 in it - dont imagine that was much fun to drive unless the gearing was really low.

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Re: AMG M103 motors, any experts?

Post by Ali_Boz » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 1:25 am

hi!

just finished reading your journey with your 190e!!

I've wanted to give my '91 300TE one of these dBilas camshafts for a while but never bought one because i didn't know which one to get. i couldn't find anyone over here with them installed!! i wanted to drop that 22/62 cam (on the suggestion of a mate of mine who rebuilds engines) and delete the rear muffler to add some zing to the old girl.

what was the 3.0L like with that 22/62?? im really curious and what cam you would suggest to me having the w124 chassis and the car being more of a cruiser/daily. and with how my engine is going it too will need some head rebuilding and i plan to do the distributor as well.

thanks for your help i've been planning this for a long time
1991 w124 300TE
1993 w124 300TE 2.8 R.I.P

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