gearbox upgrade

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m48pro69
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gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Fri 28 Feb, 2014 2:51 am

This is a queation for John and anyone else who might know is it possible to fit the 5 speed 722.6 gearbox to a m110 or m117 as you can now get a seperate control box as it is called NAG1 transmission when fitted to Chryslers. http://soundgermanautomotive.com/pcs/ or does this sound good http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19295.0 just bouncing off ideas as thinking a w114 or w123 280 might be desirable money to purchase a decent one should be available in a month or so. And yes i have looked at your white one John and Green one at Holland thats whats got me thinking.
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Fri 28 Feb, 2014 6:16 am

Oh and another question Can the OM603 Crankshaft be fitted to the M110 like it was to M103/4 by AMG . I notice the bore size of the M110 is 86mm the same as Nissan RB30 and Toyota 2jz motors maybe useful for piston upgrade with compression.
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Fri 28 Feb, 2014 1:36 pm

And while searching for information found these company's http://www.elbe.ee/products/efi-kit/m117 they do efi manual gearbox and turbo kits for M117. http://feind-motorsports.myshopify.com/ ... m117-motor this company camshafts and cam gears for M117. This comany w123 v8 conversion kits http://www.m-bv8conversions.co.uk/9.html . This company M110 performance camshafts http://www.dbilas-shop.com/Products/Per ... _3165.html. also found out rods and pistons could be made for both engines by CP.
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by John Green » Fri 28 Feb, 2014 8:58 pm

m48pro69 wrote:This is a queation for John and anyone else who might know is it possible to fit the 5 speed 722.6 gearbox to a m110 or m117 as you can now get a seperate control box as it is called NAG1 .
Anything is possible if you have enough money..... :dance: :dance:

However this would be a tough conversion. The M110 engine is perfectly vertical and the M103/104 is on a slant, so the bell housing of the 722.6 is offset to deal with this. Then unlike the earlier transmissions where you can swap the bell housings, the 722.6 and all other late model trannies have an integral bell housing (part of the main housing), so basically unless you are prepared to start making up some funky adaptor plates it would be a nightmare.

If you really wants to change the drive characteristics I would look at different diff ratios and then convert to first gear start. This kinda uses forth gear as an overdrive.
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Fri 28 Feb, 2014 10:04 pm

Thanks John so a manual would be the best option. I would like to keep shorter diff gears for take off aceleration and have over drive for highway use. I have just had a fire sale over here in Perth. Sold my motec 6.9 project and everything else including house. That is finalized in early April then will look at getting a w114 or w123. Most likely to return to Canberra and have decided if i am doing it will start with best of eighter i can find. Vaeith in Germany have M110 with 220ps for sale. I have in the past used Haltech fuel only computer so that is one idea if the 280 is carburetor engine if d-jet or k-jet will workwith what i have. The reason for M117 is i have access to euro 560 so could go down that path after seeing your white coupe. Will email about finding good car when finances come through. And everything is shorted on other issues.
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by John Green » Sat 01 Mar, 2014 9:20 pm

If the aim is a 5th gear then yes a manual is the much easier option. The later Getrag 5 speed will bolt straight up. You will however have to either get a manual engine or rebalance the crank assembly on the old M110 engine with the new flywheel.
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Sat 01 Mar, 2014 9:56 pm

. Sounds like a project for your workshop then :dance: . As said will be early April before settlement on house goes through and i have seen fuchs in Germany sell refurbished 15x7 baroque wheels on there web page and classic centre in California. So bigger brakes would be on the cards :drool:
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by Mercmad » Sat 01 Mar, 2014 10:16 pm

In Finland the diesel guys have been playing with merc gearboxes for years. The strongest merc auto was the three speed 722.003 in the 6.9 ,so what they do is put 6.9 parts,mixed with W140 V12 gearbox parts into a W124 gearbox/.
There are guys making their own set ups now to get the merc overdrive to do what they want.
http://youtu.be/qYhNcl7JfsQ

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by AMG » Sat 01 Mar, 2014 10:22 pm

That sounds interesting Ron. Can these parts be swapped into say, a 5 speed auto, and be reliable behind an m117? I guess the housing won't take it though...

I have a curious idea about shoving a 6 speed behind a 560 or using an m120 in a 460.333 if an m120 can fit in a 107, then a gwagen engine bay should be a piece of P***
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift 7G-tronic Diamantweisß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Sat 01 Mar, 2014 10:43 pm

Hi Ron & Joe i still have a spare 6.9 diff and gearbox sitting in wrecked gold 6.9 . Most likely going to sims as nowhere to store and needs removal before settlement on house. I am enjoying that there is a lot more information and parts out there for m110 & m117. The wise thing would be a om603 or m104 as there seems to be endless possabilities with these engines. But we will see which way i go after i short out mess i am in on home front.
Euro 6.9 #1873 325Hp flywheel & 255.6Hp rear wheels and counting

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Mon 03 Mar, 2014 9:55 pm

Just out of interest i still have my M100 stroker project engine that needs final completion. I know it would be cool but probably an impossible nightmare with regards a W114/123 . :dance:
Euro 6.9 #1873 325Hp flywheel & 255.6Hp rear wheels and counting

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by AMG » Wed 05 Mar, 2014 2:46 am

Before u scrap it give Giles a call
He might be able to loan u some space...
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift 7G-tronic Diamantweisß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by SirpentZ » Fri 28 Mar, 2014 10:02 pm

John Green wrote:
m48pro69 wrote:This is a queation for John and anyone else who might know is it possible to fit the 5 speed 722.6 gearbox to a m110 or m117 as you can now get a seperate control box as it is called NAG1 .
Anything is possible if you have enough money..... :dance: :dance:

New member here...............

The quote is very true, never think anything is impossible as they told me until I proved them wrong.

Cheers John
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Sat 29 Mar, 2014 11:05 pm

Hi John you got my attension very cool what car is it going into. :dance:
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by SirpentZ » Sat 29 Mar, 2014 11:19 pm

m48pro69 wrote:Hi John you got my attension very cool what car is it going into. :dance:

1975 260Z running full bolt in chassis and M86 LSD Diff and MoTeC M600 management system.

I have had the car 30 years and was in storage for close 20 of them
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by Mercmad » Sun 30 Mar, 2014 9:54 am

Nice! thats a 2 seater as opposed to 2+2? the roof looks like a 240 . Nothing is impossible,it depends on practicality I guess. A mate of mine has a mazda cappella repowered with a fully worked 351 cleveland. He bought it on ebay for $3000 and has never driven it.. Fear i think.. :laughing6:

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by Mercmad » Sun 30 Mar, 2014 9:56 am

m48pro69 wrote:Just out of interest i still have my M100 stroker project engine that needs final completion. I know it would be cool but probably an impossible nightmare with regards a W114/123 . :dance:
Why are you in WA? I would love that!!

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by AMG » Sun 30 Mar, 2014 10:41 am

Getting stuff shipped is not that expensive guys. what the issue is, is putting it on a pallette, wrapping it up in black plastic, so the truckies can't see what it is (and therefore are less interested in stealing it) and getting it to a depot.

reality is, there is not a lot of $ involved, it just depends on insurance value. I had the WB rims shipped up here on a pallette - with tyres on and it was cheaper than stripping the rims, boxing them and getting a courier.

I would not be scrapping that 6.9 auto, nor the diff. you need to think about the fact that you will never find the parts again, as 6.9 stuff is now getting hard to find. if you do want to sell it, get on the m-100 forum and let the 6.9 guys know you have it. more than likely they will happily help out with fright options too, they all have done it before.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift 7G-tronic Diamantweisß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by SirpentZ » Sun 30 Mar, 2014 12:39 pm

Mercmad wrote:Nice! thats a 2 seater as opposed to 2+2? the roof looks like a 240 . Nothing is impossible,it depends on practicality I guess. A mate of mine has a mazda cappella repowered with a fully worked 351 cleveland. He bought it on ebay for $3000 and has never driven it.. Fear i think.. :laughing6:
Hi All

I don't want to Hi-jack this thread, so will post this once so you all have an idea about what I'm up to with this manual conversion.

I hale from Melbourne Australia and I originally purchased the car in 1983, did a bare metal respray on it, added triple 45's then later around 1990 a Turbo L20ET, sold the triples for $350.00, regret that one now, then in 1994 I stored it away in my parents underground car park, it sat there for 16 years untouched.

Well i got the bug, and after 16 years of plotting planning day dreaming, I dragged it out into the sun and home and started the long process of restoration, I was extremely lucky as there was only one major rust patch the size of a packet of cigarettes on the entire car located on one of the rearward rail sections.

Then a few months into it I started to contemplate a different direction as far as the powertrain, I knew I wanted something that was driveable in all situations, city or freeway, reliable yet responsive when called upon, I always enjoyed the idea of what we used to call when I was in my late teens "Sleepers" wolves dressed in sheeps clothing so to say rather than the Tokyo shock boy rides of today which are moving bill boards for the authorities and scream out, "Pull me over"

I came across an alternative that ticked all of the boxes and started the long search literally on every continent, came across a few and started negotiating, finally did the deal with one a few weeks later, a few months later, withstanding hurricanes cyclones and tsunami's I had sitting in my garage an AMG 3.2L Intercooled Supercharged V6 with 5 speed triptonic Speedshift AMG box etc. etc. etc.

You probably all know about the motor which came out of a C32 but some facts about the motor and trans are as follows.

Displacement cc : 3199
Bore x stroke mm : 89.9 x 84.0
Compression ratio : 9.0 : 1
Power output at rpm : 349 HP / 260 kW at 6100 rpm
Max. torque at rpm : 332 lbs-ft / 450 Nm at 4400 rpm
0 to100 km/h s : 4.6 seconds based on a 1650 kg C32 sedan
1/4 mile time : 13.0 based on a 1650 kg C32 sedan
Maximum speed (ECU limited) 186 Mph / 300 Kph
Transmission : 5-speed automatic with AMG Speed Shift function
1st - 3.59:1
2nd - 2.19:1
3rd - 1.41:1
4th - 1.00:1
5th - 0.83:1

My project was given the nickname torque monster back in Australia when I announced it, or as I like to refer to it now "Das Drehkraftmonster RS32"


a few weeks after taking delivery I learnt that the entire electronics system and hardware from a C32 sedan could not be retro fitted into my car, So after spending the better part of a day curled up in a fetal position sucking my thumb and thinking about my new position I tried to visualise exactly how the entire AGM package could work and came to the conclusion that dumping the auto trans, ECU and TCM and fitting a manual trans could allow me to move forward, what i hed to do however is run something like a MoTeC M600 aftermarket management system instead.

The reason for this was simple, after making calls to the UK and speaking to a tech at ATP about getting my ECU decoded so as to eliminate the security features I learnt that this was only part of the puzzle, the C32's ECU and TCM actually use telemetry from an array of other inputs such as the ABS, traction control, launch control and even suspension telemetry etc, if one of these telemetry streams is inactive the ECU and TCM read it as being a fault and the entire electronics go into limp mode.

As we all know, Datsun even with all their visionary idea's in the 1970's never equiped my 260Z with such features and retro fitting them all from a Benz would end up costing me the price of a C32 sedan.

If I was to use a manual stick shift like a Getrag with the MoTeC management system basically what I was be dealing with was a lump of metal with pistons injectors etc etc etc that the MoTeC can be set up for.

I put my theory to one of Australia's best tuners, a friend of mine called Peter McDonnell and we did some soul searching on the phone and over the net and it looked doable.

So now it looked like I would end up with not only the first S30 powered by a C32 AMG motor, but also the first C32 manual period "FINGERS CROSSED"

I was lucky as MoTeC are in Victoria and I spoke to them on the phone about the M600 unit to run the motor, as far as we could tell having crawled all over the M112 it should was doable even down to the fly by wire accelerator as the Motec provides input for it.

The other good point was that we would be able to map and tune some more hidden potential out of those charged cylinders as a result.

After much thought surfing and consolation, I decided on installing an M86 LSD diff used in the the XR6 Turbo and FPV V8 Falcons and picked up a 20,00K diff, ratio is 3.46:1, then spent a whole weekend designing a new cradle assy which would support the diff and firm up the rear suspension, I have a degree in Industrial design so using a CAD is half the fun for me in building this car, as far as the box, I ended up securing a Tremec T56 with chev bellhousing out of a HSV Commodore which ran a Gen3 V8 and got it for about half what everyone else was asking in the market place.

It was chassis brainstorming time and I came up with an idea for a chassis design which would bolt into the car rather than welding re-enforcement plating throughout the car, it got the thumbs up as far as meeting certification requirements and met some of my objectives

#1 Create a very rigid structure capable of dealing with the torque that's expected.
#2 Build it in a way that would allow for almost the entire structure to be bolted in allowing for ease of removal.
#3 Attempt to use the structure as the platform from where the engine, trans and diff mounted too, this would allow for the mounting and alignment of these components with the superstructure outside of the shell.

So after creating a scaled drawing of the S30 from dimensional plans I had at hand, I came up with a final design which I knew would seem like overkill, however all up weight should come in at approximately 90Kg, considering that the new engine will be some 60kg (138 lbs) less than the L6 it doesn't phase me, in addition I also decided to tie in the rear inner cabin suspension towers into the build with a removable tower floor brace which will bolt through the rear floor to the companion chassis.

By doing it this way, I can almost return the car to its OEM state if I ever decided to (Most unlikely) but more so I will be able to do all the final mounting and alignment of the engine, gearbox, tailshaft and differential with the chassis sitting outside of the car which is a God send.

Then the fun started, I stripped off the T56 bellhousing, the Benz bell Housing, The torque converter from the engine, and mounted the motor onto an engine stand.

After the strip down of the 2 trannies, I took the metal gasket which lived between the Benz Box and bell housing and lined it up to the front face of the now bare T56 box (Minus its bell housing) luckily the input shaft main bearing in the box is almost exactly the same as the input shaft hole on the metal Benz gasket, so I was able to align the plate to the box within a fraction of a millimeter.

The reason for doing this was because I was going to use the Benz housing and needed to see how the outer parameter of the Benz housing would sit in alignment with the T56, good news was that the T56 housing bell mount holes are all outside of the Benz parameter, this means that once I had a plate manufactured to act as a converter between the Benz bell, there wouldnt be any issues bolting it up to the T56 and using all the original mount points.

Back to the CAD, Oh Joy

After a few MONTHs of toil and no cooperation from either MB nor Tremec, long story, I finished the CADs and commited to having it all machined, only issue we came up against was that the way the crank shaft position sensor on the flex plate was set up, there is a ring gear built into the assy, attempting to replicate this on a billet fly wheel along with the ring gear would have been complicated and also very expensive.

Examining the flex plate determined it is overly engineered and in its unadulterated form a fly wheel could be machined that would sandwich onto the flex plate allowing for perfect alignment with the original mounting points and associated dowels.

I have a complete series of pics available of the entire kit and clutch assy, many people who have seen it refer to it as automotive porn.

As I said, the conversion is possible and much of what I have discussed would apply to a retrofit of a HP V6 or V8 into an earlier Benz shell, the point here is that the process needs to be clinical in planning, so many factors must be taken into account, chassis dynamics, suspension, breaks diferential, the list goes on and on.

I have a CLK320 everday driver which I love, but this will be my poor mans Porsche terminator for the weekends, it has taken the better part of 3 years to get this far and am currently in the chassis build stage, I hope this has helped some of you with your visions.

Cheers

John

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Sun 30 Mar, 2014 4:59 pm

Hi John that is impressive to say the least. :dance: . Hi Ron the reason i have not shifted the stroker motor is becauce once everything is sorted i would like to find a home for it. Which i am in the process off negotiating. :dance:
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by T-Modell » Sun 30 Mar, 2014 7:20 pm

SirpentZ wrote:...
Power output at rpm : 349 HP / 260 kW at 6100 rpm
0 to100 km/h s : 4.6 seconds based on a 1650 kg C32 sedan
...
My project was given the nickname torque monster back in Australia when I announced it, or as I like to refer to it now "Das Drehkraftmonster RS32"
...Cheers

John
John,

you're a bit optimistic there; it had 354hp and 5.2 seconds from 0-100; those were the officialy MB figures (same as for the C55). A 457hp C63 does 4.6. The C32 was limited to 250 and if you took the limiter off, maybe 280 (I guess) were possible. I don't think you'd reach 300 without modifications on the motor or gearbox.

Good luck with your project! Btw. the usual term asfaik for "torque" is "Drehmoment" (product of Force and Distance -> Newton-Metre). "Kraft" is just "Force" and measured in Newton ... if I remember my physics lessons correctly ... :laughing6: :laughing6:

Thomas
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1967 W111 250SE Cabriolet, horizon blue
1973 W115 220D 5.0 Pick-Up Argentina, work in progress 2017/18/19
1986 R107 500SL, arctic white, the midlife crisis viagra replacement
2007 R171 SLK350, calcit white
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by SirpentZ » Sun 30 Mar, 2014 7:58 pm

John,

you're a bit optimistic there; it had 354hp and 5.2 seconds from 0-100; those were the officialy MB figures (same as for the C55). A 457hp C63 does 4.6. The C32 was limited to 250 and if you took the limiter off, maybe 280 (I guess) were possible. I don't think you'd reach 300 without modifications on the motor or gearbox.

Good luck with your project! Btw. the usual term asfaik for "torque" is "Drehmoment" (product of Force and Distance -> Newton-Metre). "Kraft" is just "Force" and measured in Newton ... if I remember my physics lessons correctly ... :laughing6: :laughing6:

Thomas[/quote]


Hi Thomas,

I can only go by what the available information is and the numbers I posted were off a site that had the initial figures released for it.

With a modified intercooler, smaller SC pulley arrangement, Inconel headers, no cats and the MoTeC M600 we are estimating in excess of 300Kw and 500 Nm. As far as top speed, with the 6 speed we also estimate 300 Kph is well achievable.

There are numerous C32 youtube videos of C32's achieving 300 kph also..................at the end of the day its neither here nor there, this will be a drivers car of my own making which I intend enjoing within the legal speed limits apart from any track days I might take part in

Thanks for the well wishes.

Cheers

John

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by T-Modell » Sun 30 Mar, 2014 11:24 pm

John,

videos is one thing, here's the offical MB data of the C55 ... I even remember the data, because I was interested in such a car in those days, but never bought it due to the size. I have a brochure somewhere, but too lazy to dig for it :whistle:
c55_203.jpg
Best regards
Thomas
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1967 W111 250SE Cabriolet, horizon blue
1973 W115 220D 5.0 Pick-Up Argentina, work in progress 2017/18/19
1986 R107 500SL, arctic white, the midlife crisis viagra replacement
2007 R171 SLK350, calcit white
2008 S211 E63T, calcit white, sleeper

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Mon 31 Mar, 2014 12:05 am

Um Thomas you posted about C55 and 350. John has the C32 kompressor engine. :dance:
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by T-Modell » Mon 31 Mar, 2014 1:22 am

m48pro69 wrote:Um Thomas you posted about C55 and 350. John has the C32 kompressor engine. :dance:
I know, but it's the same data, as I mentioned before. 354/367 hp is also pretty similar
Thomas
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Mon 31 Mar, 2014 3:13 am

Hi Thomas standard specs on C32 are that it weight's 1635kg . A Datsun 260Z is 1044kg so going on what John has said his will come in under 1100kg giving over 500kg less weight it will make it secnificantly faster. Power to weight will improve by about 1/3 .
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by T-Modell » Mon 31 Mar, 2014 4:44 pm

m48pro69 wrote:Hi Thomas standard specs on C32 are that it weight's 1635kg . A Datsun 260Z is 1044kg so going on what John has said his will come in under 1100kg giving over 500kg less weight it will make it secnificantly faster. Power to weight will improve by about 1/3 .
No trout about it :dance: :dance: ... if you remove the back seats of an old VW Polo and install it reversed, it's even faster :laughing6: :laughing6: ... my old dream, when I was a student :occasion5:
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Mon 31 Mar, 2014 5:29 pm

Sounds like what they did in Queensland in the 90's they dropped a kombi 400m verticaly from a chinook and timed its quarter mile it was 8 seconds from memory it was at one off the fast4' jamboree 's. :dance:
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Mon 31 Mar, 2014 5:33 pm

But back to the topic what are the difference's if any in the bellhousing bolt patterns between mercedes 722 transmisions as is old 3 speed to newer 722.6 5 speed with regards mercedes v8's. :dance:
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by AMG » Mon 31 Mar, 2014 9:52 pm

the 722 series transmissions have many different patterns.

for example the 722.3's have different patterns - the alloy m116/7, and the m103/4 3.0L patterns as an example I believe the OM617 may be different, OM603 would be same as m102/3/4. 722.4 has same pattern as m103 (2.6), and used on m102's as well. 722.5 has same pattern as m102/3/4. but is used on m104's.

722.6 has the later m119 m120 and the v6 (m112 or m111? - can't remember) patterns from memory-

they all have differences though. the bellhousing pattern and the starter location is different on a number of models. the bolt circle is different on the ones you were referring to. This is covered in a few threads in the mod section.

Question is what are you wanting to do...... because a cut & shut on an auto is a pretty big deal. A lot more difficult to line up the converter than on a manual box. with the manuals, you can at least remove the front section and locate it via the input shaft front seal cover....
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift 7G-tronic Diamantweisß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Mon 31 Mar, 2014 10:57 pm

Ok thanks Joe my queastion specifically was the bolt pattern the same on all v8. Which you answered i was just wondering about the 5 speed as you can now control it indapendantly. And 2 motors off interest are M100 and M117. I am currently doing ground work on getting another car this time not a project from the start only if i want to improve things. And main interest is shorter gearing with over drive gear to bring revs back down on highway. :dance:
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Tue 01 Apr, 2014 10:29 am

And i would prefer to keep a Mercedes box and shifter if possible as if i go GM box it means Commodore or B&M shifter something i am not keen on.
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by AMG » Tue 01 Apr, 2014 11:24 am

if you do decide to use the tremec behind the 6.9, then you could use a rip shifter. - or customize the shifter lever to however you like. all gets hidden under the shifter boot anyway....

The only auto I'd consider using behind a 6.9 is something from an m120. and even then, I seriously doubt I'd use an MB auto, period. They are overpriced, fragile, and way too expensive to repair, should something go wrong inside. Let's use the word "Abuse" in a non-destructive context: meaning that through 'normal' performance driving usage, that is to say - 'spirited' driving or manually shifting (which mercedes autos are designed to cope with, btw) I would seriously doubt that any 722.6 would have any degree of longevity.

Now I'm not bagging the auto. They are good for their intended design parameter. But they do not handle that 'abuse' (there is that word again) very well when put into an application that borders on the design parameters.

torque is the big problem here. a 6.9 has it very low in the rpm band, and the 5.6 m117 & 6.0 m120 have it further up the rpm band. This will eat the friction plates. even though the m120 may have more power, and the m117 may have more torque spread but less of it, even the 722.3 4 speeds in the m117 & m119 did not really last that well in the standard application where frequent or regular 'abuse' of the transmission occurs.

Let's examine a manual box requirement for performance use:

Manual. clutch with sprung hub, ceramic/kevlar puck, double diaphragm pressure plate if you need stupid clamping force (you don't) and a custom flywheel, using the flexplate chopper ring & ring-gear from the 6.9, if you need to keep CIS. If you're using a 24-1 or 36-1 trigger, then all you need is a compatible starter / ring gear for your custom flywheel.

I would be making the assumption that your starter would remain OE, and in the OE location, and that the manual bellhousing would use the same location.

If so, then you have to work out the input shaft / bellhousing mating face measurements, and all *should* end well.

Direct clutch in Brisbane will be able to help with a flywheel, if you cannot find someone locally.

You will need to provide the following info:
Pics of existing flexplate / flywheel & gearbox help, bear in mind what is required (following list) if you need to take specific pics.
include a metric tape measure in pics wherever possible, or measurements with vernier callipers if possible.

1. desired flywheel diameter (overall) - this is because if the billet required is larger than a certain size, they may have to farm out the lathe work (which they do not like doing as it gets expensive).
2. distance from crank flange to ring gear (check for spacers - you may/may not want to remove them- up to you)
3. input shaft diameter, splines, and length relative to :
a) bellhousing mating face
b) throwout bearing at full extention
4.length of input shaft from tip to throwout bearing face at throwout bearing full compression.
5. diameter of input shaft pilot bearing surface.

decide if you want the pilot bearing in the crank or in the flywheel (usually dictated by input shaft length and bellhousing)


Those are some options available - not suggesting you use a manual, but after my own repeated experiences with auto's behind large and small MB's, I would seriously consider the manual box as a cheaper and more enjoyable longterm solution
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift 7G-tronic Diamantweisß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by Giles » Tue 01 Apr, 2014 1:25 pm

All this just to bring down the revs on the highway. Sure could buy a whole lotta fuel for all this. With the torque ratings of a 6.9 my faith would only be with the original 3 speed auto. Anything else would be a gamble I would think.
Without a lotta win, the up keep alone on one is going to limit the amount of fuel in anyway.

Regards,

Giles
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Tue 01 Apr, 2014 2:15 pm

Thanks Joe i was thinking 350 ring gear 3.46 final drive should do it nicely. As Quaife in the UK make lsd for W116 diffs and W114 Giles http://quaife.co.uk/shop/search/results ... C267%2C944 . Cheapest option is put gearvendors behind transmission http://www.gearvendors.com/ . But it is just over $3000 . Funnily enough the same price as GM adaptor. Which does not matter if auto or manaul in the price. I think everyone knows who they are from in Sydney. So i would say around 8 should do it with box and parts for manaul. Have spoken to fabricator over here in Perth said they can do it as well. So will see them when i get new car. http://torquefabrication.com.au/ . As i have said still have big motor in parts. And have been emailing Germany have got good information back with parts. And yes i have agreed to buy a car sorting details now. :dance:
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by SirpentZ » Wed 02 Apr, 2014 12:56 am

m48pro69 wrote:Thanks Joe i was thinking 350 ring gear 3.46 final drive should do it nicely. As Quaife in the UK make lsd for W116 diffs and W114 Giles http://quaife.co.uk/shop/search/results ... C267%2C944 . Cheapest option is put gearvendors behind transmission http://www.gearvendors.com/ . But it is just over $3000 . Funnily enough the same price as GM adaptor. Which does not matter if auto or manaul in the price. I think everyone knows who they are from in Sydney. So i would say around 8 should do it with box and parts for manaul. Have spoken to fabricator over here in Perth said they can do it as well. So will see them when i get new car. http://torquefabrication.com.au/ . As i have said still have big motor in parts. And have been emailing Germany have got good information back with parts. And yes i have agreed to buy a car sorting details now. :dance:
John

If you are still considering a GM/Tremec conversion, mine cost just under $4,000 + $1,500 for the box using the modified Benz auto bell.

The pic shows the full kit, I do have individual close ups of all the components.

Cheers

John
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by m48pro69 » Wed 02 Apr, 2014 6:47 am

Thank you John that is very helpfull information as well/as you to Joe. I think i will pay torque fabrications a more serious visit once i get the car. It would be unual having a manual 6.9 to say the least. :dance:
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by oliveoyl » Mon 21 Apr, 2014 9:42 am

John, wow, just wow.

Do you have a build thread with pictures online anywhere I am very interested in what you're doing. It is an elegant solution to the canbus dilemma us modifiers and retrofitters face. Thanks for posting.
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by Mercmad » Tue 22 Apr, 2014 8:38 pm

Back in the 70's a few Americans had maserati manual trans up behind their 6.3's... AS for 6.9's, the only thing that really ruins those trannys is the older style snout which strips it's splines and this is pumped through the trans. :angry4:
Another thing Americans did was hook up a Mopar 727 torqueflight . I defy anyone to find a better auto trans .Simple. Bomb proof .Cheap.

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by Mercmad » Tue 22 Apr, 2014 9:26 pm

E500 trans adaptor.jpg
Ok,here is pagadinos E500 with manual trans..
http://youtu.be/HRxH0rLf2Pw
E500 trans adaptor.jpg
E500 tran throw out.jpg
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by Mercmad » Tue 22 Apr, 2014 9:34 pm

Clutch
E 500 clutch.jpg
Flywheel
E 500 flywheel.jpg
ignition sensor
E 500 ignition sensor.jpg
Shifter mods
E 500 shifter mods.jpg
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by drew56cus » Fri 25 Apr, 2014 7:56 pm

Sorry john, what engine did that kit suit, and what trans?
Can anyone tell me whether this would suit an M119 or M113.
Cheers, Drew
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by Mercmad » Sun 27 Apr, 2014 6:43 pm

Drew, it could fit either, as pagadino has done,his is behind a M119 but a m113 would be just as easy.

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by CraigB » Sat 02 Jan, 2016 2:47 pm

I was just looking over this stuff again and i think this has the elbe link - here is the drivetrain link anyway and a photo of their manual conversion for getrag

http://elbe.ee/products/drivetrain/

It looks a bit like an auto bell housing from 117 and simply with perhaps their plate that sandwiches it to the cut bell housing. I can see the strength etc in the Pagadino welding job, but you would imagine elbe would have tested their item and saves a lot of that effort of getting it all lined up and welded. I also did some measurements but will post them in another thread but to me it looks like a t56 would come very close to fitting a c/r 107. But back to the priorities - hurt my shoulder so spending a bit more keyboard time while it heals!
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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by Mercmad » Sun 03 Jan, 2016 2:21 pm

If the cost of Getrag is a bit daunting ,have a look at the land rover/range rover 5 speed manual trans. Almost bomb proof they are stupidly cheap .in fact you can buy a complete old rover for $500 . in australia there are even one or two places who make adaptors and starter conversions.
http://www.marks4wd.com/mfk410g3.html

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Re: gearbox upgrade

Post by CraigB » Sun 03 Jan, 2016 7:53 pm

doesn't make sense to me to use getrag when tremec so available. My only point was the method being used by elbe that looks just like a machined plate fitting into the case of the auto bellhousing. Popular conversion to put the ls in place of the sometimes troublesome rover V8, but using the gearbox back the other way would need to work out what to do at the tail end where the transfer case comes off (I think it is the same set up as my tdi) and if you had the ls better to buy a tremec off the shelf. Rover sedan like SD would work, but still same problem of bolting it up.

Can't imagine the elbe kit is cheap, shame there are not more photos of how it is done.
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