no start - new battery dead in a week

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node105
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no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by node105 » Fri 08 Jan, 2016 8:14 pm

Hi

2.5D

A 2 year old Optima yellow battery was dead a week ago, so replaced it with a new red top.

Tonight completely dead. 5.2V

There hasn't been any indication from the charge indicator in the instrument cluster

The alternator was rebuilt 2 years ago, when it over- voltaged and fried the previous yellow Optima.

Now it may be a voltage leak somewhere, but is there any obvious suspects to be looking at?
Last edited by node105 on Fri 08 Jan, 2016 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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T-Modell
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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by T-Modell » Fri 08 Jan, 2016 8:30 pm

Hi
I'd start with the obvious, gloves compartment, boot lamp, any alarm systems, radio. If that's not working, the you have to test the amps flowing and take out one fuse by the other to see where it might come from.

Thomas
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Tony From West Oz
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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by Tony From West Oz » Fri 08 Jan, 2016 11:16 pm

Put the charger on it, then check for current draw from the battery.
The clock and radio should take only a few tens of mA. A Security system, if fitted, could take anything, but should only be under 100mA with all entry contacts open (they close when you open the door).
If you can't find any current draw over 1Z, the disconnect the battery earth terminal and put your ammeter (10A scale) between the battery terminal and the cable which normally attaches to it. Any significant curreny should be investigated.

With the battery charged, start the car and measure battery voltage at idle. It should be around 12.6V with a reasonably charged battery, less with lights, heater fan, etc on. Raise the engine RPM to over 1K. Voltage should rise to 13.2 - 13.6V, even with above loads on.
A partly charged battery may exhibit lower voltages until over 50% capacity.

When the battery is fully charged, voltage should get to ~14V before dropping back to 13.6V

I hope this helps,
Tony
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (occasional tourer)
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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by Djenka018 » Sat 09 Jan, 2016 11:39 pm

You covered all bases Tony... perhaps this should be placed in some sort of know-how section
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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by redlaser » Sun 10 Jan, 2016 9:28 am

With ignition and all accessories off the battery drain shud be less than 100 milliamps...this will take several weeks maybe months to flatten the battery....if not then as said, remove the negative battery terminal and connect an ammeter in series or use a 12 v test lamp in series with negative terminal and lamp ...if higher than 100mA (or the lamp glows at all) u have a lamp in the car (usually) on...removing fuses is your best move as stated above to see if current drops (or the test lamp dims).....alarm systems are notorious for battery discharge..if u have one then disconnect it and see result...lets know your results!!

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by Tony From West Oz » Sun 10 Jan, 2016 12:37 pm

That would save me writing it every time someone asks the question.

Tony
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (occasional tourer)
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car - Sold)
'06 Ssanyong Musso Crew Cab 2WD Ute (OM662 diesel and Auto Transmission)

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by node105 » Mon 11 Jan, 2016 10:25 pm

thanks for the replies


took the battery back today (across town 25 km, after organising some transport), and supplier will charge it up over the next 3 days. He has the approved $9k equipment... Despite the Optima site having 'connect in parallel with another battery' method, the local guy maintains this is only plausible if done within a quite short time of the flatness occurrence. So we shall see what the outcome is.

The bottom line is AGM batteries that become 'deeply discharged' are a a problem. The appropriate battery charger is c. $200 USD.

Despite being on charge for 3 days, the ctec xs-800 charger achieved nothing, The battery remains at 5.7volt. Apparantly these (Ctec...) do not work at all, if the battery voltage falls below 10volt. Hence the connect in parallel to another battery method.


Supplier provided an old loan ordinary battery, so I got a chance today to test the fuse circuits for voltage drop. I'll do the amp testing tomorrow if I get a chance, and have a closer look at fuses 12 and 13 (probably clock)





Fuse removed, connected to battery, voltage across fuse terminals
Fluke 70 III, zeroed
Fuse cover 201 545 09 00

Fuse
Volt
Circuits

1
0.100
Blower Motor, climate control system, solenoid valve autom. transm./diesel engine, relay auxillary fan term. 86

2
0.002
carburettor electrics ( solenoid valve autom. transm./carburetor engine

3
0.172
(Auxillary Fan)

4
0.005
High Beam right, High Beam Indicator

5
0.052
High Beam Left

6
0.043
Heatable Rear Window

7
0.079
Window Lift front left a.rear right

8
0.087
Window Lift front right a.rear left

9
0.385
Backup lamp, stop lamp, instrument cluster, additional instruments

10
0.020
Electromagnetic clutch engine fan, washer nozzle heater, emission electrics, (tachometer, cruise control, adjustable, heated outside mirrors, outside temperature gauge, switchover valve idel stabilization autom./transm./injection engine, seat heating front*)

11
0.006
turn system, horn

12
11.7
(rear dome lamp, autom. antenna, relay window lift term.86, central lock. sytem, electronic radio, control unit seat adjustment memory, relay seat adjust. term. 86)

13
11.7
plug socket diagnosis term. 6, hazard warning system, front dome lamp, clock, trunk lamp (sun visor mirror lamp)

14
0.730
Parking/tail light right, illumination: license plate, instrument cluster a. control elements (head lamp cleaning unit)

15
0.000
Parking/tail light left

16
0.007
Fog light , rear fog light

17
0.800
Low Beam right

18
0.000
Low Beam left

19
0.010
Glove compartment lamp, cigar lighter, switch heatable rear window, (radio, sliding roof*)

20
0.000
wiper motor, washer pump, headlamp flasher (relay headlamp cleaning unit term.86)

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by Djenka018 » Thu 14 Jan, 2016 4:49 pm

It's the Amperes that you measure when connecting instead of the fuse.
Make sure you set the meter to 10A range and plug the terminals accordingly.


You do not need $200 charger where a decent charger will do the trick.

smart chargers are indeed sometimes smarte-arse chargers and do not like to recover deeply discharged batteries.
Parallel battery is not what I would recommend. Can kill both batteries and make you blind/disfigured face and even kill you.
Ideally you want current controlled stupid charger (or a daft charger with 7-8A or better capacity) to start the battery charge cycle and then complete with the smart-arse charger.

I use $49 Ozcharge or similar.
Aldi recently sold a decent 2-3A smartarse charger for $29 - which could recharge nicely ANY car battery over 1-2 days.

"AGM batteries that become 'deeply discharged' are a a problem"
If any, AGM have the best chance to recover from deep discharge as these are the most tolerable to it.
If the supplier gives you a numberwang that comes from batt tester telling you your battery is good after 2-3 days,ask them to show you the same when measured on a brand new battery.
I got $400 batt tester that can make anyone believe they have good battery (or tell me a bad battery, when properly used).
'80 450SLC 3-continental

node105
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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by node105 » Thu 14 Jan, 2016 5:49 pm

finally borrowed a VOM with amp capability and tested the current drain, in series with earth /negative.

battery leakage 238mA
Fuse 12 leakage 238 mA

pulled rear interior light, from interior light, same leak
yet to look at electric aerial, window lift relay (where?)
Electrical Troubleshooting manual, and fuse box cover also suggest central locking; yet to discover if there are electrical elements to the vacuum door locks
rear boot lock wires disconnected

Temporary solution while the charging issue sorted out is to leave the fuse out.

Also tested the charging, and it isn't.
No red battery instrument light at ignition on ; pulled that and filament is ok. So is presumptively the alternator diode pack

Progress, but no happy ending as yet.

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by node105 » Thu 14 Jan, 2016 6:17 pm

Djenka018 wrote:It's the Amperes that you measure when connecting instead of the fuse.
Make sure you set the meter to 10A range and plug the terminals accordingly.


You do not need $200 charger where a decent charger will do the trick.

smart chargers are indeed sometimes smarte-arse chargers and do not like to recover deeply discharged batteries.
Parallel battery is not what I would recommend. Can kill both batteries and make you blind/disfigured face and even kill you.
Ideally you want current controlled stupid charger (or a daft charger with 7-8A or better capacity) to start the battery charge cycle and then complete with the smart-arse charger.

I use $49 Ozcharge or similar.
Aldi recently sold a decent 2-3A smartarse charger for $29 - which could recharge nicely ANY car battery over 1-2 days.

"AGM batteries that become 'deeply discharged' are a a problem"
If any, AGM have the best chance to recover from deep discharge as these are the most tolerable to it.
If the supplier gives you a numberwang that comes from batt tester telling you your battery is good after 2-3 days,ask them to show you the same when measured on a brand new battery.
I got $400 batt tester that can make anyone believe they have good battery (or tell me a bad battery, when properly used).

Amperage is preferable yes, but didn't have the hardware the other day, volts is an indication
12.7 volts on f12, which was subsequently were the leak is, once I got to do an amperage leakage test


As for appropriate charger, battery bloke maintains time frame is all important, and appropriate charger is an imperative if maximum battery performance is to be salvaged, from an AGM battery that has been in a deeply discharged state for more than a short time ( day-ish)

<<If any, AGM have the best chance to recover from deep discharge as these are the most tolerable to it.>>

It all depends (apparently) on how long they have been fully discharged. Battery bloke was quite insistent this was pivotal.
That in my instance it was on the order of a week plus, significantly decreases recovery yield, so high end hardware has computer controlled cycling, desulphation... to recover as much chemistry capacity as possible.
While it may have been 880 cranking amps on delivery, it probably will not recover to that capacity, more controlled recovery just increases the yield presumably.

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by Djenka018 » Thu 14 Jan, 2016 9:25 pm

So is presumptively the alternator diode pack
if the charge globe does not come on and you tested it to be good... bingo!
'80 450SLC 3-continental

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by Tony From West Oz » Thu 14 Jan, 2016 10:44 pm

Dump the AGM, They are a con!. They die if overcharged, they die if flattened. Get a good quality Flooded low maintenance battery. They are heavier but will generally (for a quality make) outlast their warranty period by at least a couple of years and no fancy charger is needed to restore them even if deep discharged for a day or 3. Leave any lead Acid battery flat for a week or more and you will have difficulty recovering it.

Regards,
Tony
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (occasional tourer)
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car - Sold)
'06 Ssanyong Musso Crew Cab 2WD Ute (OM662 diesel and Auto Transmission)

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by redlaser » Fri 15 Jan, 2016 9:33 am

Well done!...u know fuse 12 is the prob so look at the easiest items on fuse 12...the rear dome lamp may be leaky or the radio has a small current drain ...any "foreign" wires on the battery positive terminal?...maybe a red/black wire run to power something extra (gps/camera?)

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by node105 » Sun 17 Jan, 2016 9:58 am

redlaser wrote:Well done!...u know fuse 12 is the prob so look at the easiest items on fuse 12...the rear dome lamp may be leaky or the radio has a small current drain ...any "foreign" wires on the battery positive terminal?...maybe a red/black wire run to power something extra (gps/camera?)

yes, had looked at the easiest first. Pulled the front and rear interior lights, no radio, had removed previous owner electrical mutations when I first got the car (5 years ago)

trying to identify the wires exiting the fuse box underside, for fuse 12, that's a problem. The Electrical Troubleshooting Manuals I have is for US models, so can't rely on that.
For example, the US version has a feed to window relay, with the fuse removed the windows still work. So physically tracking seems the only reliable way. I do have another fuse box somewhere, but given the amount of stuff that has been crammed into the garage in the last couple of years I have buckleys of finding it without major excavation.

Pushed my 67 Alfa 105 GT Veloce back into service yesterday,(first in 3 years) so have transport at least.

Pulled the regulator cheapo RG-B350 from the rebuilt alternator, super cheap and repco no idea. Will try auto electricians for a Bosch replacement.

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by Ivanerrol » Sun 17 Jan, 2016 7:34 pm

node105 wrote:
redlaser wrote:Well done!...u know fuse 12 is the prob so look at the easiest items on fuse 12...the rear dome lamp may be leaky or the radio has a small current drain ...any "foreign" wires on the battery positive terminal?...maybe a red/black wire run to power something extra (gps/camera?)

yes, had looked at the easiest first. Pulled the front and rear interior lights, no radio, had removed previous owner electrical mutations when I first got the car (5 years ago)

trying to identify the wires exiting the fuse box underside, for fuse 12, that's a problem. The Electrical Troubleshooting Manuals I have is for US models, so can't rely on that.
For example, the US version has a feed to window relay, with the fuse removed the windows still work. So physically tracking seems the only reliable way. I do have another fuse box somewhere, but given the amount of stuff that has been crammed into the garage in the last couple of years I have buckleys of finding it without major excavation.

Pushed my 67 Alfa 105 GT Veloce back into service yesterday,(first in 3 years) so have transport at least.

Pulled the regulator cheapo RG-B350 from the rebuilt alternator, super cheap and repco no idea. Will try auto electricians for a Bosch replacement.
Unfortunately installers of third party alarm systems with remote entry door lock/unlock have been shown to be less than professional - often breaking into this circuit to power parts of their install.
I pulled heaps of ezsatz wiring out of my W201.

There are specialist Bosch auto electricians who you can google.
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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by node105 » Tue 19 Jan, 2016 10:50 am

replaced the generic regulator with a new Bosch one, still no charge.

REG: Bosch 1 197 311 090 Made in Hungary
( a generic Bosch item)

Removed the alternator, slip rings look poor, and contact pattern is not aligned to the segments.

Back down to auto electrician, quick bench test showed open circuit. So left for repair.

DSC00075.jpg
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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by node105 » Tue 19 Jan, 2016 10:51 am

slip ring - note the misalignment
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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by node105 » Thu 21 Jan, 2016 8:34 am

Having left the diagnosed open circuit alternator with the auto-electrician for repair, the news is that (something) is sheared internally and non-repairable.
Options:
a new Bosch 70A $750
a Bosch 'copy' $440
a new Valeo (115A) $420
also possible (apparently) is fitting a holden alternator internals to the Bosch casing

Additionally if I had time, a Bosch from Rexbo for c. $370 AUD landed
( or http://www.autoteilemann.de )

A new Bosch is ordered.

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by Tony From West Oz » Thu 21 Jan, 2016 10:58 pm

You could get one from our Sponsor or a member of the forum. I have a couple on my parts shelves, but freight from WA may be excessive.

Tony
Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

'83 W123 300D 325000km (Wife's car Josephine - sold).
'84 W123 300D replaced good OM617 912 with OM617 952 and enjoyed having good acceleration for the first time since first driving a 300D in 2002 - became engine and trans donor for 300CD Turbodiesel conversion. Now parted out.
'86 W124 300D sold (Wife's old car - sold )
'85 W123 300CD, 275 000km (Fatmobile) rebuilt turbodiesel from previous Fatmobile transplanted into 280CE (occasional tourer)
'99 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car - Sold)
'98 W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car - Sold)
'06 Ssanyong Musso Crew Cab 2WD Ute (OM662 diesel and Auto Transmission)

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by Djenka018 » Thu 21 Jan, 2016 11:02 pm

Nothing beats new.

I would probably go for wrecker sourced as these alternators should be plenty and chance is one with identical age can be found.

Perhaps it is the time to upgrade to 70A and I think the battery upgrade is compulsory too. 70A (vs 55A) can cook your standard battery if/when you crank a lot or if you jumpstart the flat battery.
I had one bad cell in the battery and when left for a week without a charger it would crank and barely start but 1 cell would severely gas for 5-10 minutes afterwards. Serious hazard.
'80 450SLC 3-continental

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by node105 » Thu 21 Jan, 2016 11:14 pm

New Bosch arrived this afternoon, so picked it up and now installed.


Battery charging again (13.45V) , and of course the battery warning light in the instrument panel now works also.


No time to be chasing wreckers, and less inclination; the last trip to the one down south was a complete waste of time.

The auto electrical - belair road electrical and mechanical, was terrific. They took the cost of the regulator I had purchased (and fitted) off the new alternator, cleaned and painted the fan and fitted the pulley, plus zeroed the charge for inspecting and dismantling the old buggered alternator. Outstanding.

Now I only have to pursue the fuse 12 leak.
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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by node105 » Thu 21 Jan, 2016 11:42 pm

alternator has an extra (+) terminal too.


Didn't think of the sponsor or sourcing via the forum; time is a bit of a constraint, and the battery /alternator has turned into a 3 week saga of sorts.


Thanks to all for your input.


This particular 190 D 2.5 is in overall good fettle, and I am expecting to hand it on to a niece if I move up to an E class this year - a diesel almost certainly.
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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by node105 » Mon 01 Feb, 2016 10:23 pm

found time to test the fuse 12 leak on the weekend, now eliminated with the new alternator

now 39 micro amps , ie 0.03 milli amp ( probably the clock)

normal limit is considered 50 milli amp from what I read.

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Re: no start - new battery dead in a week

Post by redlaser » Tue 02 Feb, 2016 9:27 am

I use a cig lighter plug in ccessory that reads out battery volts,,excellent to monitor the battery and only $3.16 from e-bay!!
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/121336330543 ... EBIDX%3AIT

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