5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

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piperjon
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5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Tue 19 Sep, 2017 9:46 am

Hi guy's.
I have a 1997 C180 5 speed manual gearbox and want to change the oil because i don't know if it has ever been changed before.

BUT I cannot find the filler plug to refill the oil once I drop it out. So until I know where it is I cannot do the oil change.
Can any body help here please??

Regards
john

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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by merc-304 » Tue 19 Sep, 2017 11:08 am

Google that / images ?
Rear right hand side of Gearbox i think .
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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by AMG » Tue 19 Sep, 2017 1:15 pm

Can't miss it. huge hex socket screw pipe plug on the RHS of the gearbox main case.

Have you got a transfer pump to get the fluid into the gearbox?

have you checked https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/231.0_en.html for the correct fluid specification?

does your fluid meet the required specification?

Some manual gearboxes use a 75w-85 GL4 spec synthetic gear oil (my 716.6 speed does) while others use ATF dex3 spec, and some are even more specific (717.404 / 450 have a very exacting spec)

please check the fluid spec list and make sure you have the correct oil for the application before you comence- if you put the wrong fluid in, it will destroy the bearings and synchros in no time flat.
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardenne Green "Oswald"
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.

piperjon
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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Wed 20 Sep, 2017 9:10 am

Hi guy's,

Thank you for your help here. Because I have no host I have to like many of us jack the car up and add stands. That is why I couldn't find the filler plug. Anyway I will check again and the oil used in my box is the ATF fluid. I suppose it will be Dex3 as you showed. The Merc is a November built and my wife is a February built Mercedes. I had to replace the diff in hers because the pinion bearing went and the cost just for the parts was unreal. So we found a second hand diff with the same specs.
Thanks again guys
All the best
John

piperjon
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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Wed 20 Sep, 2017 9:15 am

Just to let you know that I am thinking of buying the 2017 GLE350 or GLE400 SUV. I would love to have the GLS63 AMG but would need to win lotto to pay for that SUV.
All the best
John

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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by Bartman4800 » Thu 21 Sep, 2017 4:05 pm

piperjon wrote:
Wed 20 Sep, 2017 9:10 am
Hi guy's,

Thank you for your help here. Because I have no host I have to like many of us jack the car up and add stands. That is why I couldn't find the filler plug. Anyway I will check again and the oil used in my box is the ATF fluid. I suppose it will be Dex3 as you showed. The Merc is a November built and my wife is a February built Mercedes. I had to replace the diff in hers because the pinion bearing went and the cost just for the parts was unreal. So we found a second hand diff with the same specs.
Thanks again guys
All the best
John
You had to replace the diff on your wife because of a sloppy pinion bearing?

Wow, that must have been quite some undertaking :laughing6:
1963 220 Sb Sedan "Kermit" (Australian Assembly)
1960 220 Sb Sedan "Zum Schlachten" (Early German Assembly, with a torsion bar spring for the bonnet) - Stored in Country WA
1981 Subaru Brumby 1.8 with Weber and 5-speed box "little utie" - Sold to another enthusiast!
2006 Ford Focus "missus car"
2002 VW Passat V6 30V Station Wagon (my new commuter bus)

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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Wed 27 Sep, 2017 10:27 am

here it was cheaper to look and buy a second diff for the wires Mercedes. Just for the front pinion bearing was about $300 AUDS. The second hand diff was only $150. But with out having the Tork tools I would not have been able to remove the diff. The axel Tork studs were the worse job I have ever done. Where I bought the diff from I had lots of trouble trying to remove the Tork studs. So the boss there told me to take the whole back end which I did. But even being at home trying to remove the axle studs from the diff was a big job too. So what I did was hit the stud with a bog hammer and use a 3/4 impact gun I was able to remove all the studs. That was the only way I could get them undone. The lock tight used sure worked well.
Cheers
john

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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by merc-304 » Wed 27 Sep, 2017 12:53 pm

Am i reading this right $300 for a pinion bearing
Or supply and fit pinion bearing for $300 ?
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piperjon
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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Wed 27 Sep, 2017 1:22 pm

Your reading it right. The front pinion bearing on these 1997 C180 diff is a very wide bearing. I priced it and had to buy one more bearing puller it out . A big job anyway.

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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by merc-304 » Wed 27 Sep, 2017 1:49 pm

Do you happen to know the part number for that bearing ?
And did they give you the Carat rating .
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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Fri 29 Sep, 2017 10:52 am

Hi merc-304,

All I did was ring up Mercedes parts and gave him all my numbers and he can back with that price. The diff was making a very loud noise. I put the car up on stands and started the engine and with my listening device I was able to tell it was the front pinion bearing. Oil in the diff was full and clean. So I looked for a second hand diff from a wrecking yard who sold me the wrong diff. It was bigger but looked the same when I picked it up. But checking when I got home it was the wrong one. So back down to Sydney and checked out 3 other yards. Came home with a diff only to found out it had the wrong diff ratio and that did some real funny things to the computer and would not change gear in the auto. So off I went again and this time I found a Mercedes which was the same as my wife car. I couldn't remove the axle work studs. So the guy said take the whole back end out and try that which we did. But no-good so he said take the whole back end.
So that was a job on my wife car I will remember. All going well right now.
John

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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by AMG » Fri 29 Sep, 2017 2:22 pm

The inner CV studs are a triple square - aka XZN socket cap screw, with lockplates and threadlock. They are notoriously difficult to remove in situ without a hoist.

As for the pinion bearing, it seems odd for it to go, in which case the pinion end float would have quite quickly work the gear teeth and the result would be a whine that you could hear 10 blocks away.
Sounds like the nut was either loosened at one stage and not correctly retorqued, or perhaps the crush tube has failed. Either way, it's very uncommon for the pinion bearing to simply fail on it's own without any help.
1109.jpg

Bearing Categories : Tapered roller bearings
Screen Shot 2017-09-29 at 13.13.16.JPG
Model : A0009808402
A0009808402 Features : Special structure
Inner diameter (d) : 41.275 mm
Outer diameter (D) : 82.55 mm
Width (B) : 26.543 mm


Prices are nowhere near what you were quoted. I have rough prices from bearing service centre for the NTN at 118 plus tax and the SKF 0009801102 is cheaper.
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Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardenne Green "Oswald"
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.

piperjon
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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Fri 29 Sep, 2017 2:53 pm

The only thing I can say here now is the must have giving me a set of bearing for the diff. It doesn't matter now as the second hand diff is tops. I still have the old diff so one day I will work on it. I was told they were hard to remove. So we will see later. I'm now trying to find the problem with my Mercedes C180 same year but November built. and it's got a problem that when you drive up a hill and say in 4th gear thegine slows and then goes ok and then slows then goes ok again.
I took it to a Mercedes guy who changed the cam sensor and said it is ok now but driving home it started to do it again but not as bad. I have no idea what that is.
john

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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Fri 29 Sep, 2017 10:28 pm

Hello AMG,

You seam to know more then me regards my 1997 Merc C180 W202. Is there a plate on the side of the manual box is it so i know which 5 speed box I have.
I took out the filler plug just to see what colour the gear oil was and its like gear oil not DEX111 auto red oil. So I have buy some from Mercedes next week to make sure I use the right oil hay. I think I should be able to give the Vim number and get what model 5 speed box I have.

John

piperjon
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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Sat 30 Sep, 2017 3:13 pm

Hello AMG,

So I checked the chart sheet you added and I think the oil I should use 15W40. Where I live it does get to 5 degrees below and can get to over 30 to 37 degrees. I run Castrol edge 0W40 in my engine.
What do you think??
Running the DEX111 I am sure is not the right oil and the colour in my 5 speed gearbox right now is like the engine and it is very clean looking.
I'll find out on Tuesday at Mercedes in Orange what that oil is they use for 5 speed boxes.

John

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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by AMG » Sat 30 Sep, 2017 4:22 pm

if you put your vin into datamb.com, you will get your datacard, which will tell you exactly what the engine number is, the transmission, the order number and your options.

without the serial number of the transmission, it's not possible to say exactly, and there is no guarantee that the oil in there is the oil that the gearbox was originally filled with, unless you have owned it from new and it's not been changed.

The owners manual should have the oil types and fill quantities, and the serial number should be stamped into the side of the gearbox (right hand side), about an inch below and about 2 inches in front of the filler plug, below the slave cylinder.. You will see a machined area where the numbers are stamped in.
717.433 right.jpg
DSC_3732.jpg
Do not ever put engine oil in the gearbox. it does not have any anti-wear and has no film strength. the oil will shear, the box will wear out quicker than you can say 'it's buggered'. if the oil specified is gear oil, then use a full synthetic gear oil 70w-85 GL4 (e.g. penrite pro-gear 70w-75 or 75w-85 GL4 - NOT GL5 - a gl5 oils sulfur compounds wil ruin the yellow-metal synchromesh) and a transmission additive if the shift is baulky when stone cold (try penrite 4297) Otherwise the old specification was for dexron IID (superceeded by dexron3) use a full synthetic ATF and the additive if you get baulky shifts - Otherwise, insist that the dealer order the correct bottled fluid - (and make sure you check it - so they don't use something else they just picked up at superCrap auto)...
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Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardenne Green "Oswald"
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.

piperjon
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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Sat 30 Sep, 2017 6:23 pm

Hello AMG,

I went into datamb.com and added my Vin #. So you get it now do you??
I don't understand it but you will hay.
I have checked every invoice that the lady gave me when I bought it. I was the second owner and no gearbox oil has been changed.
John

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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Sun 01 Oct, 2017 7:15 am

After checking and translating the word in German "Getriebe" my gearbox is a 717 417. so now I got to find the right oil for this manual transmission.
I am now starting to under stand the customer card with the numbers on the card thanks to you and the datamb.com.
It was good of the lady to add all the paper work in the glovebox.
John

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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by AMG » Sun 01 Oct, 2017 9:37 am

From the link I posted above:
section 231.1
Automatic transmission fluids (ATF), sheet 236.2, for MB passenger car and commercial vehicle transmissions with non-ferrous metal synchronization except A-Class front-wheel drive manual transmissions (see section 2.5, sheet 235.10), Allison transmissions, commercial vehicle power steering systems, hydrostatic fan drive.

The ATF must meet all the requirements of the transmissions with nonferrous metal synchronization. These include, in particular, wear protection against pitting and seizure as well as a defined friction coefficient of the synchronizer components that is as constant as possible over the entire service life. As a hydraulic fluid, the ATF is used for hydraulic power transmission and for protecting the hydraulic unit from wear.

The seal compatibility must be ensured with all elastomer materials installed. The approved ATF according to sheet 236.2 correspond to the currently no longer valid GM specification Type A Suffix A. The kinematic fresh oil viscosity at 100 °C must be at least 7.0 mm²/s, after shearing (as per CEC- TLPG 7) at least 6.0 mm²/s.

236.2 Automatic transmission fluids (ATF, type A, suffix A, Specification 236.2)

The following product list should help you to select the correct operating fluid for your vehicle/major assembly from the variety of products in the market.
We are recommending to use exclusively the products listed in the following overview, because only these products have been tested and approved by Mercedes-Benz.
We recommend using only products which are distinctly marked with the label indicating the approval of Mercedes-Benz
Which are listed in the current MB BeVo. Only listed products are tested and approved by Mercedes-Benz.
Application in vehicles/major assemblies refer to Sheet 231.1 (passenger cars, cross-country vehicles) Sheet 231.2 (commercial vehicles) Sheet 231.3 (UNIMOG, MB tractor)
Screen Shot 2017-10-01 at 09.44.11.JPG
So basically you should be using a full synthetic Dexron IID compaitble fluid which meets MB spec 236.2

Most all reputable brands of fully synthetic ATF meet this specification. - all you have to do is look on the label to see if it has the 'M-B Approval 236.2'
I run the Nulon full synthetic ATF in my 717.404 which is a particularly fussy transmission and has a much more specific fluid spec. requirement, which the nulon product also happens to cover.
...and since I could only buy a 60L drum of it, I also use it in the 722.3 auto in the SL, as well as the ZF-4HP22 auto and BW transfer case in the Range Rover.

It's easy enough to DIY it, You'll just need a transfer pump to get the fluid into the filler hole up the side of the transmission.

Drain the oil after getting it properly hot, and leave it drain for a good hour. Check the catch pan for fine bearing metal and other swarf, also check just inside the drain plug with your finger for any silt / particles. be careful for metal splinters -

Use new copper / alloy washers on the drain and filler plugs or it will leak. Tighten it according to spec (see reference library section for 717.4 service manuals - it applies to all 717.4xx transmissions) and do not overfill the transmission - just fill it up until the fluid runs out of the filler plug hole and plug it. Make sure you clean the area around the filler plug before you fill - if it's filthy, then kero on a brush should get rid of most of the junk before you take the plug out.

when youre done, wipe everything clean, take for a test drive, make sure it has time to get warm. when you get it back into the garage, make sure the drain plug and filler plugs are still tight.

If you are paranoid about leaks, clean the drain plug and hole threads with solvent (thinners / acetone) and use a new washer on the plug. apply a SOFT gasket sealer compound to the last couple of threads closest to the sealing washer on the plug, and insert into the transmission case. don't use threadlock or stud lock. Use something soft like mr gasket or master pipe sealant(latex) compound.

the reference library section contains a lot of this information - it's wise to download the files you need for future reference. :occasion5:
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Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardenne Green "Oswald"
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.

piperjon
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Posts: 84
Joined: Thu 06 Jun, 2013 8:34 am
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Location: Sunny Corner N.S.W.

Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Tue 03 Oct, 2017 8:51 am

Hello AMG,

I have contacted Mercedes in Orange and they have the right oil for my manual trans. It is a Mercedes brand and for my 5 speed manual after checking the VIN number on my Merce. So I will have the right oil for it.

Thank you for all your help with the right oil to use. Cheers and thanks
john :occasion5:

piperjon
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Re: 5 speed manual oil filler plug (Where is it)

Post by piperjon » Tue 03 Oct, 2017 5:16 pm

You wouldn't want to know that I misunderstood his price. I thought it was $80.62 for 4litres. But I was wrong it was $80.62 per lite. Went all the way to Orange to pick up the oil and didn't have enough money to buy 2 litres. So on the 5th I'll go back get the oil from them

Super cheap Autos said they have the transmission oil for my Mercedes but it's 75w80 gear oil. But I want to stay with the Mercedes oil as I know it would be the right stuff.

John

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