Buying a contemporary benz

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Ivanerrol
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Model you own: w204
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Buying a contemporary benz

Post by Ivanerrol » Tue 16 May, 2017 1:18 pm

Redirected from another thread.
AMG wrote:
Ivanerrol wrote:
AMG wrote:Les, Not sure if you're a 204 fan, but the last of them are well enough spec'd for a shopping trolley ;)
Just missed a 2011 204 wagon with just over 40k's on it for less than $25K - procrastination :color:
Bloody hell that's cheap. :Doh:
I have been trolling through the usual suspect sites : Carsales, Feabay and Guntree, drive etc.
There are literally hundreds of W204's for sale. Most probably coming off new car leases or novated leases.
There's only a certain demographic of people who will buy a Benz - particularly a second hand one.
Novated leases run out when a vehicle is 8 years old. So many of the 5 year old plus cars need to be financed by personnel loans or other finance.

Those hundreds of W204's out there for sale seem to have very optimistic or hopeful prices on them. Many private buyers are trying to make up their residual payout. Many have had a shock at the stealership on the quoted trade in price.
One buying trick is to try and get to divulge a price they were given at the trade in - offer them a $100 on top of that price - they would rather sell to you than a stealership.
Mate did a $100K loss in 15 months on his CLS. He just did another big bust on a Porsche Macan.

Following the sales sites you can easily see that there are some cars which remain for sale for months and months often with an ever decreasing selling price.

I see that some official MB stealerships are starting to get rid of Stamarque cars at reasonable prices instead of the usual 75-100% premium over normal prices.

Which bodes well for a potential picky Benz buyer.

Having said that.
M271, M272 and M273 engines have design flaws in the first years of production up until 2008. Benz USA is subject to a class action on these problems. The result of which at this current time - allegedly - they will repair these engines - as long as they have had stealership servicing up to 100,000 miles - 160,000Kms.
Diesel injectors were a problem up until 2012. This was general over marques due to OEM sourcing from Bosch.
Other marques are having real issues with the Black Death caused by direct injection - this doesn't seem to be a problem with Benz's as long as you keep the EGR system cleaned out and use Premium 98 octane fuel or high quality diesel.
Command screen failure is common. $$$$ to replace.
The airmatics were generally sorted out after 2004 but 100,000K's seems to be a common failure point.
There are now Chinese copies of the airmatics which can be sourced in Australia for a few hundred. Arnotts and Bilstein are now offering reasonable value replacement or changeover (The cost of airfreighting is often more than the cost of the units).

So ......decisions decisions
W211 - E240
W204 - C280
W210 - E240
Departed
W202 - C200, C180, C180
W126 - 380SE , 380SE (Ex SA Import), 560SEL
W124 - 300e, 260e (ex Japan)
W111 220s (Indonesia) 4 speed manual column shift
W123 230
W116 450SEL
W140 420SEL
W210 E240
W209 CLK 240
W201 190e 2.6 (ex U.K.)

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T-Modell
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Re: Buying a contemporary benz

Post by T-Modell » Tue 16 May, 2017 3:56 pm

Ivanerrol wrote:...
Mate did a $100K loss in 15 months on his CLS. He just did another big bust on a Porsche Macan....
You are very unfair to those people ... they provide us with classic cars of the future :occasion5:

A proper human being buys his daily driver brand new ... or would you buy a sandwich like that:
Image
:laughing6: :laughing6:

Thomas
---------------------------------------------------------------
1967 W111 250SE Cabriolet, horizon blue
1973 W115 220D 5.0 Pick-Up Argentina, work in progress 2017/18/19
1986 R107 500SL, arctic white, the midlife crisis viagra replacement
2007 R171 SLK350, calcit white
2008 S211 E63T, calcit white, sleeper

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Ivanerrol
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Location: Melbourne

Re: Buying a contemporary benz

Post by Ivanerrol » Tue 16 May, 2017 8:07 pm

Sausage Sandwich :dance: Marvelous :drunken: years since I've had one of them :sad11:
Banned here because of the Food Police.

I work in a major retail complex. We have at least 60 food outlets.
You can't buy a standard four and twenty pie anywhere. You may find a $7.00 epicurean pie.
You wont find a sausage sandwich anywhere either.
Not even a fish and chippery - you need to go to one of the restaurants to get these.
Steak sandwich? Nada. - $20.00 in grilled.
There are at least 40 of those places where you can buy coffee - not one has a decent espresso (short black).

Great coffees in the laneway cafes outside the complex.

I highly doubt that the CLS will be a future classic - it might be in a static museum.
Mates car had issues with the proximity sensors stealership could never get it right. The electronics will condemn these cars as too expensive too fix in years to come. W203 command screens being and example.
W211 - E240
W204 - C280
W210 - E240
Departed
W202 - C200, C180, C180
W126 - 380SE , 380SE (Ex SA Import), 560SEL
W124 - 300e, 260e (ex Japan)
W111 220s (Indonesia) 4 speed manual column shift
W123 230
W116 450SEL
W140 420SEL
W210 E240
W209 CLK 240
W201 190e 2.6 (ex U.K.)

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Ivanerrol
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Model you own: w204
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Re: Buying a contemporary benz

Post by Ivanerrol » Tue 16 May, 2017 8:18 pm

Ivanerrol wrote:
Having said that.
M271, M272 and M273 engines have design flaws in the first years of production up until 2008. Benz USA is subject to a class action on these problems. The result of which at this current time - allegedly - they will repair these engines - as long as they have had stealership servicing up to 100,000 miles - 160,000Kms.
Diesel injectors were a problem up until 2012. This was general over marques due to OEM sourcing from Bosch.
Other marques are having real issues with the Black Death caused by direct injection - this doesn't seem to be a problem with Benz's as long as you keep the EGR system cleaned out and use Premium 98 octane fuel or high quality diesel.
Command screen failure is common. $$$$ to replace.
The airmatics were generally sorted out after 2004 but 100,000K's seems to be a common failure point.
There are now Chinese copies of the airmatics which can be sourced in Australia for a few hundred. Arnotts and Bilstein are now offering reasonable value replacement or changeover (The cost of airfreighting is often more than the cost of the units).
To be fair here though.
The W126 original M116's suffered from single row timing chain that had to be doubled. So did the first of the M102's
M103's first batch of heads had metallurgy issues.
And then there's the dreaded eco wiring.
Door closing pumps on W140's

So MB definitely does have form on design faults.

M271,M272 and M273 designed with input from Mitsubishi during the Daimler Chrysler era. In case your wondering why the M271 is also known as the EVO engine - now you know.

Blue efficiency = thinner windscreens, deleting sound proofing, thinner skinned body panels and a lean running engine for the sake of an extra few miles per gallon.
W211 - E240
W204 - C280
W210 - E240
Departed
W202 - C200, C180, C180
W126 - 380SE , 380SE (Ex SA Import), 560SEL
W124 - 300e, 260e (ex Japan)
W111 220s (Indonesia) 4 speed manual column shift
W123 230
W116 450SEL
W140 420SEL
W210 E240
W209 CLK 240
W201 190e 2.6 (ex U.K.)

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Starman
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Re: Buying a contemporary benz

Post by Starman » Sun 21 May, 2017 9:45 pm

Not sure what the question is here, but I think it is "what modern Benz is the best value shopping trolley for money"?
My view on that would be that anything MB lower end is shite, but there may be exceptions such as the W204?
I find it hard to believe anyone lost $100k on a CLS in 15 months, seriously?
I had Airmatic and gladly flipped it at 10yo/100,000km. Too scary to fix.
You might be best advised to grab a bargain and just enjoy it whilst you can?
W212 E400 Avantgarde
W211 E500 Elegance sold
W202 C200 "the Tank" sold

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Mercmad
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Re: Buying a contemporary benz

Post by Mercmad » Mon 22 May, 2017 8:48 am

Avoid anything that you can't get a recent scan readout on.

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AMG
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Re: Buying a contemporary benz

Post by AMG » Sun 22 Apr, 2018 2:01 pm

bit of a topic resurrection:
Mercmad wrote:
Mon 22 May, 2017 8:48 am
Avoid anything that you can't get a recent scan readout on.
I'd second this with an additional slightly different adaptation...

If whoever reads my below philosphical rant and still wants to buy a modern MB with all the mod-con-fruitiness, then pre-owned.mercedes-benz.com.au is where I would start looking.

why?

1. certified used vehicles with a full 2 year factory backed warranty.
2. all the depreciation is copped by the previous owner... unless you want a demo, in which case you can save a reasonably decent sum on something that's got minimal km and has a full 4 year warranty (new car warranty).

So the best bit about all of this is that only the cleanest examples of used cars with full dealer service history (they're usually traded at the same dealer the car was purchased at, or mostly serviced at) get the certified warranty.

In this day and age when an electrical problem could spell a $5K bill, then warranty surely is peace of mind. One has to be mindful of the statutory rights of the consumer when the term 'warranty' is applied and also 'fit for purpose'. A lot of car dealers have a reputation for avoiding warranty work. I'm not specifically mentioning MB here.... but all you have to do is a little googling and see issues with ford focus, GMH colorado, and just about every manufacturer under the sun and airbag recalls... not to dispel any loathing I personally have for JLA and their treatment of landrover owners when it comes to honouring genuine warranty issues on brand new vehicles (i.e. not 'abuse')...

So you still have to use your brain when purchasing, but the modern cars, outside of a warranty present a potential economic risk that is not worth the 'asking price'. This is why I generally say if you are an 'enthusiast' and like to do your own servicing, STOP NOW.

Unless you have access to a great independent specialist with detailed knowledge of these later models, then you are at the mercy of whoever you take the vehicle to. For a Mercedes-Benz owner, Investing in a star diagnostic computer is often not economical, unless you have multiple modern vehicles, and further to that, the outlay on one is huge anyway - so you'd want to be keeping the car for it's entire useable life to justify the associated costs.

Generic scanners do often not correctly read many of the additional codes punched out by the MB ECU, and it's worth noting that some models require the Star computer to be connected to the vehicle during servicing, to complete certain functions, like bleeding the brakes (SBC for example) and for 722.9 transmission fluid servicing etc.

A lot of unwanted complexity is placed into the vehicle electrics these days, not only to make them 'robust' (i.e. fault-tolerant) but to at least allow you to limp-home when even the most major issues would see you otherwise stranded. They also prevent those with no regard for mechanical sympathy (idiots) from destroying the drivetrain through repetitive abuse. Oh and they log it, so that when it finally does go for servicing to fix whatever it was thats damaged beyond repair, the ecu brain tells the service agent when it occurred and that is a clear way for a 'false' warranty claim to be avoided by a dealer. Intelligent, right? You bet.

it's a win-lose situation. you win if you can afford to have the vehicle properly serviced. You lose out on the costs for servicing and the time taken, the inconvenience, and the need to rely on someone else to perform the work.

So those cars aren't for people who want to DIY, unless they can afford a really good scanner tool, have the correct tools to do the work, have the hoist, and the time and space. It's one of the reasons the MB star tool is the only worthwhile tool to have if your cars are MB only.

If you have many different brand modern tools there are a couple of upmarket professional diagnostics tools available but they are right up there in price. The real question is one of cost.

Sometimes I think money would be better spent on an older pre chrysler car. The 201, 124, 129, 126 and even the early 140's are still worthwhile cars to own, have an excellent chassis dynamic and very comfortable ride.... and some models are now increasing in value from their bottom-out. So that can only be a positive for owners of older Mercedes-Benz.

I like the moden R171's and 211's personally, but in terms of electronics, I'd still find that I'd have to rely on a diagnostics computer, then the issue of procuring certain 'green-key' components (requires MB Germany star-online) to remedy certain 'bigger' issues - like stolen/missing keys, ecu's, TCU's and other vin-coded stuff. You know, the things that stop you dead in your tracks, else you be on the road within 10 minutes of finding a Mr Minit key service in the shopping centre, or RACQ/RACV/NRMA etc etc to get you mobile again.

There are a lot of reasons for going to a contemporary Mercedes-Benz, but I also feel there are just as many reasons to not. I have a foot either side of the barbed wire fence and it won't take much in terms of problems when the 212 is out of warranty before the barbed-wire can do some damage... if you know what I mean.

Having said that, the difference in 'gizmos' between the 124 and the 212 is basically down to the electronification of the HVAC, the Dash readout, the screen that serves as a slave to the COMAND and Radio and telephony functions.... All of which were previously catered for in the 124 by 3 dials for the HVAC, a radio which didn't rely on you needing to navigate 50-billion menus to change a station or to swap between the radio and CD or ipod, and a phone with hands-free - which can also work with a modern single-din radio - all in all, nearly 100% coverage of moden gadgets in the older car, and if you need to be 'that person' who is gadget oriented, then you may see the modern car as superior, because it's all on an LCD.

but what happens when that LCD headunit has a fault, and you can't use your radio, or the HVAC, or the navigation or the hands-free phone?

COnversely, if you're the kind of person who prefers to drive with the radio off, or sometimes the windows down (blasphemy! :nono: ) or heaven-forbid, with the AC off..... then the moden car instantly loses any appeal, other than perhaps a slight NVH improvement, maybe a smoother gearbox and a slightly more powerful engine.

Fuel economy?
No. it won't change much. even if your new car has 420kW at the wheels.

If you want to dawdle along, then the old car will get almost as good on the fuel as the newer one.

great example of this is current avg fuel consumption per fill in the 212 is between 13.2L/100 and 20L/100 - so it's worse than my R107 on a hard driving day and marginally better than the 124 on a 'leisurely drive'.

There are just as many reasons to prefer a moden one as there are to be happy with owning the older cars.

Gone are the days when you had to stop in a town and use a public phone box to make a telephone call.
Gone are the days where you had petrol stations with full driveway service, to check your fluids while you got petrol.
Gone are the days when you could fix your car with half a dozen spanners, a screwdriver and a hammer and next to no mechanical knowledge whatsoever.
Gone are the days when the word 'inconvenience' meant having to stop overnight in a town somewhere you weren't comfortable with.
Gone are the days when you didn't have to worry about getting a speed camera ticket for overtaking the dickhead doing 30km/h below the posted signage holding up a line of traffic as long as the westgate bridge.

Simple is not a word that is allowed in modern vocabulary. It implies that it is inferior to modern automated complexity. Simple is old.

which ironically, is simply untrue. :occasion5:
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Classic 4sp auto Ardennes Green "Oswald"
2012 E63 AMG Speedshift MCT Diamantweiß "Klaus"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"

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Ivanerrol
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Model you own: w204
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Re: Buying a contemporary benz

Post by Ivanerrol » Sun 22 Apr, 2018 7:27 pm

Now that I own two contemporary Benz's - a W204 and W211 - here are some observations in conjunction with comments above.

Scan tool. - absolutely essential. You need at the minimum an iCarsoft dedicated MB unit.
I saved the cost of buying a MB icarsoft II tool within a couple of weeks of buying.

Some of the benefit was using it on potential purchases. -
(one W211 at a non Mercedes Stealership had so many issues. The sales manager claimed his mechanic was an expert and my scanner was :bs: . Later he gave me the name of his famous MB mechanic - I'd never heard of him - turned out to be a BMW specialist).

Other potential purchases - generally private - had minor issues which came up on the scanner. One had a CEL light.

I took my W204 from Melbourne to Noosa and back a month or so ago.
Two CEL's. Lucky I bought the scanner with me. CPS (which I changed) and then a vacuum leak caused by myself not putting the air cleaner back on 100% straight.

Next time around I either will lash out for the Star diagnostic or a more expensive dedicated MB scanning tool.
Starman : "what modern Benz is the best value shopping trolley for money"?
My view on that would be that anything MB lower end is shite, but there may be exceptions such as the W204?
I drove a few W204's before buying mine. One was a C200 2008 model with only 19,000k's on the clock - albeit new. I bought a C280 with all the fruit.
There's no competition. The C200 is a extremely basic motor car it's not in the same league as the C280.

The price difference between the top end cars and the basics is pretty minimal for second had cars - just buy the best top end.
Forget about the fuel savings of diesels or small engined cars - this is bollocks - See John (I hate Mercedes) Cadogan : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqOTTlION_o

My W211 is an MY05 E240 Elegance. I got it for a very good sub $10K price with 80,000k's on the clock
It's pretty basic. Next time I'll just wait until a good top end model comes around.

F.W.I.W. The basic W211 is a far superior car than the C280 with all the fruit.

Here's the issue with my MY2009 W204.
The Command system is history. can't be upgraded and if it breaks your in the S$#%t.
The GPS upgrades ran out in 2012. Doesn't interface with your iPhone/Samdung properly anymore.
The Stealerships can't help you with it. You will need to go to a 3rd party to get a replacement.
AMG : A lot of unwanted complexity is placed into the vehicle electrics these days
A lot of unwanted complexity which becomes redundant and non fixable in a short time.
The command wheel has a habit of breaking (see you tube for a fix)

AMG : Sometimes I think money would be better spent on an older pre chrysler car.
MB spent more than a Billion Bucks upgrading the original W212 and more than half a billion upgrading the W204.
These amounts of investment are normally reserved for brand new platforms.

Rumor is that this amount of money was spent to get the Chrysler out of Daimler Benz.
Another rumor. Asian customers perceived the original W212 as just a bigger W204.


Having said all that.
Overseas and local experience has evidence of contemporary cars doing stellar mileages with "minimal" problem.
Thomas has put up a lot of K's on his W211 E63 (fast K's)


Ivanerrol's recommendation.

W204 - post 2011 update and a top end model as late as possible (C300 or better).
W211 - post 2008 up to the last six or eight cylinder only preferably E350
W212 - post 2112 upgrade - there's a good reason MB spent a Billion dollars on the W212 upgrade.
S class anything post W2008
W209 - post 2008 six or eight.

This is conditional only if you are a competent DIY with the correct tools otherwise.
AMG : modern cars, outside of a warranty present a potential economic risk that is not worth the 'asking price'. This is why I generally say if you are an 'enthusiast' and like to do your own servicing, STOP NOW.
Unless you have access to a great independent specialist with detailed knowledge of these later models, then you are at the mercy of whoever you take the vehicle to.
Used A, or B class? - buy a Hyundai.


The most useful device in my contemporary cars :

Bluetooth connection to the smartphone.
I had to invest in a blue tooth puck for the W211.
The W204 seams bluetooth although the contacts must be entered manually into the cars' address book.
W211 - E240
W204 - C280
W210 - E240
Departed
W202 - C200, C180, C180
W126 - 380SE , 380SE (Ex SA Import), 560SEL
W124 - 300e, 260e (ex Japan)
W111 220s (Indonesia) 4 speed manual column shift
W123 230
W116 450SEL
W140 420SEL
W210 E240
W209 CLK 240
W201 190e 2.6 (ex U.K.)

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