220S Ponton cylinder head query

1953-1961: 180, 180a, 180b, 180c, 180D, 180Db, 190, 190b, 190D, 190Db, 220a, 220S, 220S cabrio., 220S coupe 220SE, 220SE coupe, 220SE cabrio.
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AMG123
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220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by AMG123 » Fri 10 Oct, 2014 5:53 am

I have finally bitten the bullet and removed the head from my '58 220S, as the car was running gradually worse and worse.

As expected, there is some pretty bad corrosion that renders the head unsaveable. I have a donor 220S which I planned to remove the head from to see if it was usable, but after two full days of trying every trick in the book, and cutting the heads off three firmly seized head bolts, the head remains resolutely in place.

Before I remove the whole engine so I can take it to a specialist workshop to have the head separated from the block, and probably outlaying money I don't have only to find I have another unusable head, I thought I'd ask your collective advice.

Is the head from the 220S Finnie models interchangeable with the Ponton engine? I assume they would be slightly more plentiful.

If not, are there any usable and affordable Ponton 220S heads out there?

Any other suggestions?

Many thanks in advance for any help.

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ansteadeh
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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by ansteadeh » Fri 10 Oct, 2014 6:57 am

Can you post some pictures of the underside of the head so we can look at the corrosion. You may be able to get away with having it welded, crack tested and faced. Although you don't have a lot of allowable material to remove when facing. You will need to have the thickness measurements ready to hand to the machine shop with the head so they can know what they are dealing with.
If the donor motor has seized head bolts, then based on my bitter experience, the donor head won't be much use to you either - especially if 3 bolts are seized. The steel bolts react to the aluminium over the years setting up the electrolysis that causes the head to stick to the steel head bolt. The head is like cheese compared to the head bolt, and so drilling the bolts out will require extreme accuracy (and $$) by the machine shop.

Regarding the interchangeability you are asking, others might have an answer as I don't. Good luck and don't give up.

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by efirestorer » Sun 12 Oct, 2014 7:56 pm

Others may know better ( Ron ? ) but I have seen Finny heads on Pontons. You need to modify upper radiator hose connection and air vent pipe connection from rocker cover to air cleaner. That said I have two spare heads ( Ponton ) which appear OK but would need to be inspected closely for thickness and hardness , corrosion does not seem to be a problem. Where are you ?, transport /inspection could be a problem , I am in Melbourne ( Gardenvale ). John

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by AMG123 » Mon 13 Oct, 2014 11:55 am

efirestorer wrote:Others may know better ( Ron ? ) but I have seen Finny heads on Pontons. You need to modify upper radiator hose connection and air vent pipe connection from rocker cover to air cleaner. That said I have two spare heads ( Ponton ) which appear OK but would need to be inspected closely for thickness and hardness , corrosion does not seem to be a problem. Where are you ?, transport /inspection could be a problem , I am in Melbourne ( Gardenvale ). John
Many thanks for the reply, John. I'll send an email regarding your heads.

The Heckflosse possibility is another I'm curious to explore, as it was my initial 'thinking outside the square' thought - desperation does that!

Looking forward to eventually finding a solution and getting the Ponton back on the road.

Neil

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by AMG123 » Mon 13 Oct, 2014 12:11 pm

ansteadeh wrote:Can you post some pictures of the underside of the head so we can look at the corrosion. You may be able to get away with having it welded, crack tested and faced. Although you don't have a lot of allowable material to remove when facing. You will need to have the thickness measurements ready to hand to the machine shop with the head so they can know what they are dealing with.
If the donor motor has seized head bolts, then based on my bitter experience, the donor head won't be much use to you either - especially if 3 bolts are seized. The steel bolts react to the aluminium over the years setting up the electrolysis that causes the head to stick to the steel head bolt. The head is like cheese compared to the head bolt, and so drilling the bolts out will require extreme accuracy (and $$) by the machine shop.

Regarding the interchangeability you are asking, others might have an answer as I don't. Good luck and don't give up.
Thanks for the words of encouragement! I must admit to an initial 'I give up' feeling, but my resolve has returned. The Ponton will soldier on...somehow!

I haven't yet had time to adequately photograph the head, spending some time instead checking the combustion chambers for cracks or other nasties. While the main water jacket entry points can be welded, the resultant heat will almost certainly cause some distortion and/or softening of the head which would then necessitate further (expensive, and frankly uneconomic) treatment. Interestingly, down one side of the head the water entry points are lined with a thimble-like pressed-in insert which appear to be made of brass - they're definitely malleable - and which have a precise hole drilled in them, doubtless to provide an equal and measured amount of coolant into the head. One of these has long been loose and is now simply a lump of distorted metal inside the casting.

I concur re the spare head that I had been relying on (knowing for some years this job was coming up). If the bolts are that seized, there's not even a snowflake's chance in Hell that the head will otherwise be unscathed.

A solution will be found, whatever form it takes.

Cheers,

Neil

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by ansteadeh » Mon 13 Oct, 2014 2:03 pm

Neil those thimble-like inserts are very important and I think you'll find are either brass or replacements ones will be alloy. They should be a snug fit in the water jackets that have them inserted. If you do any head work, replace like for like with new ones. They have holes in them that are directed at the exhaust port so that cooler water hits the exhaust ports first and I think they should be toward the rear of the head as this is the place that misses out last on the cooler water from the radiator. Having them missing, or corroded will result in overheating which you will never be able to solve

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by John Green » Mon 13 Oct, 2014 7:29 pm

Ponton and Finnie cylinder heads are very different. For starters the two engine use a different length timing chain 122 and 124 link. The way the oil feeds to the camshaft is different and the rocker arms are different. Like many MB products you can mix and match, but it would not be easy. I would look around for a good used head and keep it original.
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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by AMG123 » Mon 13 Oct, 2014 11:32 pm

John Green wrote:Ponton and Finnie cylinder heads are very different. For starters the two engine use a different length timing chain 122 and 124 link. The way the oil feeds to the camshaft is different and the rocker arms are different. Like many MB products you can mix and match, but it would not be easy. I would look around for a good used head and keep it original.
Thanks John. Well, that knowledgeable and definitive response to my query certainly focuses the direction of my quest!

The search is on in earnest...

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by AMG123 » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 1:50 pm

In response to my 'wanted' ad in the classified section a seller (thanks John!) has one head with number 180 010 50 20 and one of 180 010 53 20, and apparently they both look the same.

Does anyone know what 180 010 53 20 is compatible with, and in what way does it vary from 180 010 50 20?

Neil

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by Mercmad » Wed 15 Oct, 2014 6:58 pm

Those two heads will be the same, The thing to look for is the compression ratio which is cast into the side of the head on the passenger side ,represented by e=7-1 ,or what ratio the head is, it can be anything from a 6-1 through to a 9-1 . A 6-1 would be useless unless you are restoring a unimog and you can buy them in the UK from a guy selling ex nato stock.
I have a 220a which has a good head but these early 6's have small valves and non sodium filled exh. valves. I am keeping the head in storage because I will be using a 230S head (yes they bolt straight on) and cam which will give a useful HP increase and unless some know it all looks at the casting number they wont know it's a later head. The only heads which don't bolt directly on are the M130 heads which have a different cam case(25mm wider on the left ) .

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by AMG123 » Wed 15 Oct, 2014 9:31 pm

Mercmad wrote:Those two heads will be the same, The thing to look for is the compression ratio which is cast into the side of the head on the passenger side ,represented by e=7-1 ,or what ratio the head is, it can be anything from a 6-1 through to a 9-1 . A 6-1 would be useless unless you are restoring a unimog and you can buy them in the UK from a guy selling ex nato stock.
I have a 220a which has a good head but these early 6's have small valves and non sodium filled exh. valves. I am keeping the head in storage because I will be using a 230S head (yes they bolt straight on) and cam which will give a useful HP increase and unless some know it all looks at the casting number they wont know it's a later head. The only heads which don't bolt directly on are the M130 heads which have a different cam case(25mm wider on the left ) .
Thanks for the info!

A localish (nothing is local to Pyramid Hill in Vic!) machine shop thinks my head may be savable, but the pressed-in water diverters are so far proving elusive. Any pointers from anyone where these may be sourced? Part numbers? Correct description/name?

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by ansteadeh » Wed 15 Oct, 2014 11:03 pm

Try MB spares

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by AMG123 » Wed 15 Oct, 2014 11:15 pm

ansteadeh wrote:Try MB spares
Will do first thing tomorrow! John was my first port of call for a complete head, and his imperfect but reasonably-priced offering remains an option. I ran out of business hours today cleaning up the head and driving the 230km round trip to the 'local' machine shops for guidance...

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by efirestorer » Thu 16 Oct, 2014 9:06 am

Neil , have just tried sending a PM but the black hole seems to have consumed it. See my posts about cylinder head clearance issues when any skimming is done , it may be necessary to reseat the inlet valves lower in the head to attain the correct clearance at TDC. All should be OK if no skimming is required but I found that modern machinists had no idea about maintaining the required clearance , refer to the workshop manual for the dimensions. Also if machining is done , make sure the head thickness is not reduced too much , anything much under 84 mm is pushing your luck .Again refer to manual . I will be very surprised if JG does not have the water director tubes . John W.

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by AMG123 » Thu 16 Oct, 2014 11:46 pm

efirestorer wrote:Neil , have just tried sending a PM but the black hole seems to have consumed it. See my posts about cylinder head clearance issues when any skimming is done , it may be necessary to reseat the inlet valves lower in the head to attain the correct clearance at TDC. All should be OK if no skimming is required but I found that modern machinists had no idea about maintaining the required clearance , refer to the workshop manual for the dimensions. Also if machining is done , make sure the head thickness is not reduced too much , anything much under 84 mm is pushing your luck .Again refer to manual . I will be very surprised if JG does not have the water director tubes . John W.
Thanks again John W.

Yes, I read your posts with interest. Coupled with info from my manual, I was surprised that my Swan Hill machinist was more than aware of all issues. He seemed equally amazed that I was also aware...

Existing head has ample material still left. Valves, guides and seats are all good, and head has obviously been reconditioned not many miles (but many years) ago. No cracks. And substantial corrosion to water enter points all weldable in these days of MIG and TIG it seems.

Still awaiting final confirmation on water diverter availability and cost from our reliable and knowledgeable sponsor (after being assured - incorrectly - by a competitor that the diverters were included in a gasket kit) before deciding what to do. And still squirting copious amounts of penetrating oil on my 'spares' engine - surely eventually the head will divorce from the block to reveal the extent to which it is *+>?ed! Even if it takes years...

For the record, our sponsor also has a seemingly saveable cylinder head available at a very competitive price should anyone require it.

Neil
Last edited by AMG123 on Fri 17 Oct, 2014 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 220S Ponton cylinder head query

Post by Aegean » Fri 17 Oct, 2014 9:13 am

The water distributor part numbers depend on the engine number. They are all prefixed with 127 and if JG doesn't have them, the Classic Center will.
W136 170s W186 300b W180 220s W109 6.3 C107 450 W116 6.9 W124 E320 Cab
'72 Ranchero GT, Subaru SVX x 4, Subaru Vortex, DKW F89P, DKW 3=6, Skoda Octavia Super, Skoda Felicia Cabrio,
and the odd Porsche, Holden, Tatra, Buick............

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