1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

1965 - 1972: 250S, 250SE, 300SEb, 280S, 280SE, 280SEL, 280SE 3.5, 280SEL 3.5, 280SE 4.5, 280SEL 4.5, 300SEL, 300SEL 6.3, 300SEL 3.5, 300SEL 4.5
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Kiwi250-S
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1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Wed 12 Apr, 2017 11:35 am

Hi guys.

I am new to this, that is this board and to the wonderful world of Mercedes ownership. I just bought a 1967 250S. Not motor or trans. It once had a 351 Windsor and auto, which is now gone. I think they put in a 10 bolt diff. I am picking it up this Saturday and bringing it back to Auckland, so I have no real idea whats what. They also played with the powersteering/steering box?

In any case I have been doing as much research as I can. Most of it is complex, but I am looking for a "not so hard" solution to powering this car. The issues of cost and availability are paramount. My brother and I are pretty handy on the wrenches, however I don't really want to re-invent the wheel and try stuffing something in there that is going to be a nightmare.

I have looked at the various, 289/302/351 Ford, 350 Chev conversions, and unfortunately, they are cost prohibitive. I want to be realistic with what I want to achieve. I probably cannot really get into this till next summer, but I can certainly start the research and searching now. I will have it parked up till then. I have seen both a commodore and falcon conversion and...mmm not sure, the commodore sure got some grief, the falcon less so, but still...if compared to the original, they must be better? I am starting from "ZERO", so literally anything is better, whatever I can jam in there. When its all done though it would be nice to have something that at least sounds nice. I don't want menacing grunt, drifting antics or anything like that. As long as it sounds nice, fits o.k and moves I will be happy.
So...

I was thinking I would buy a whole car (not sure what)...say like a car that should really be scrapped but the motor and trans are good and move it all over, computers, relays, wiring the whole shebang, then I can be sure it all works. I am not fussed whether it is Merc powered or not, but I do want it to be automatic. Not worried about economy so much, I have an E34 manual 4.0 BMW for blatting around on. This will be for cruising.

Has anyone put an BMW M50 into one of these? I cant find anyone with a rover 3.5 in them either?

What would you guys suggest as a recommended donor?

So...it has to fit, can be either carb or fuel injected.
It has to sound decent
It HAS to fit and I dont mind subtle modifications, but I am not wanting to do full rack conversions just to make it fit or cut crossmembers etc.
Has to be Auto (again mainly for ease of installation)

Can you guys comment on your recommendations?
I have searched the www, and its very conflicting, but I am hoping that I can come up with a decent plan.

Cheers

merc-304
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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by merc-304 » Wed 12 Apr, 2017 12:31 pm

Mercmad has done a rover V8 into Merc W110 .
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Kiwi250-S
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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 3:06 am

Found that article thanks about the rover into the W110. I think thats the way to go. Its light, almost in budget, sounds good, carb, auto...easy, or easier than other conversions.

Just have to wait now for something to come up. I owned a Rover p6 many years ago, always loved the quirkiness of those things, but loved my Charger more at the time, but the P6 was special somehow, and the Charger was an enigmatic brute.

Cheers

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 7:46 am

Hey,

I read that thread on the rover V8 into the finnie. Interesting and inspiring.

Cheers

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by merc-304 » Thu 13 Apr, 2017 10:04 pm

Theres also one on a Lexus 1UZ into a finnie.
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Kiwi250-S
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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Fri 14 Apr, 2017 9:14 am

I do like the idea of the Lexus, we put them into everything over here. But...I can get a BMW M60B40 for half the price probably,and its in the same ballpark 4.0 litres, quad cam and all that jazz. If the original exhaust manifolds dont fit though, that would be a major headache!

I used to get into my valiants, and even a nice 318 would be great, would sound great at least. But, what about these holden v8's, we have a finnie over here with a holden V8 and rack and pinion conversion from the same I take it..now that makes some sense?

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by ibast » Tue 18 Apr, 2017 3:15 pm

get a m116 or m117 motor from a w116 or 126. I paid $500 for a whole 126, so I got the motor and gearbox. It's still a simple conversion and that way you keeping sort of original. Well in the family at least.

Or if you want to go modern other manufacturer, go XR6 turbo (im pretty sure you have them in NZ). Or even non-turbo. they put out a very grunty 200kW and that makes them well suited to this car.

I'd do that before a lexus conversion

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Mon 24 Apr, 2017 11:48 pm

I would like to do a M117 conversion, they sound nice to boot. Its just waiting for a motor and trans to turn up. It would be nice to keep the steering standard if I can, so that would be a bonus. The previous owner, has mucked around with the steering, and I have no reference point, so I will have to have to wait for a std W108 to turn up at a local wreckers and hopefully I can spot where the changes are AND change them back. They guy I bought it off, said they had mucked around with the idler arms or something and that it had terrible bump-steer, so that they could fit in the 351. For all I know, they did nothing, but again I have no reference points. If I can get it back to std and throw a M117 in, I will be happy!

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by ibast » Mon 01 May, 2017 3:29 pm

Got any photos of the idler arm, etc. We might be able to advise if it's standard.

And seriously, there are always $1500 cars on gumtree you can get a motor and trans from (and that's without negotiation). If you wait for a motor and gearbox to show up you will pay that anyway and you won't get all of the accessories (necessarily).

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by merc-304 » Mon 01 May, 2017 7:28 pm

How is the market for older Mercs in NZ, is the pricing same as in OZ or more expensive ?
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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Sat 17 Jun, 2017 3:18 am

I will wait for better weather before I take some pics of the engine bay.

Older Mercs are expensive here. Well kinda...its hard to assess, cause the mint ones are ruddy expensive, and then some are very cheap for what they are I think, say compared to the UK!

But we dont earn much $$$$ here and parts are nowhere near available so in essence they are expensive.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by CraigB » Sat 17 Jun, 2017 11:24 am

Its not that different here - I figure what you are buying is more about time and labour. If you do the sums on turning the cheap cars into good ones and put a labour charge on it, the expensive ones are the cheapest way to get to a good car normally. And the parts seem expensive not because the wreck they came off cost a lot, but by the time the guy has gone there, dug it out, towed it home and spent hours pulling the bits off, stored them, taking photos and communicating for all those that ask and then go silent etc etc - it all adds up to lots of time. Thats basically why i have sold very few parts over the years because it does my head in! I think if everyone put themselves in the other persons shoes for a minute then things would be different and of course some buyers do that.

But for your car, if you have lots of that time to invest, simplest thing is to look for another cheap running 108 and make a good car out of the two and sell off what you don't need. If you really love that shape and really love the sound of a v8 then just don't underestimate what is involved. People do this stuff but the most common outcome is people start, invest lots of time and money and then it all gets too hard and they get rid of it. Putting a 3.5 M116 in it will be easiest, because factory did it. Steering is a bit different on that model - idler and steering arm, a bit lower.
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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Mercmad » Sat 01 Jul, 2017 8:46 am

So what did the car look like ? I have seen some horrible conversions done to fit Fords into Mercedes, although it is was one of the first type done back in the 60's. You could once buy a kit for the conversion in oz. The previous guy has probably just dropped the height bof the drag link to clear the ford sump. Chevs have the sump in the wrong place , which is why Fords were the ideal.Don't make the mistake of putting, a jap engine in, they lack the torque .A nissan infinity V8 will work though, a mate has done a couple and they have loads of grunt, the only issue is finding a front cut.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Sun 02 Jul, 2017 5:27 pm

I dont know what they have done to the idler arm, but its doent look right, the angles done look right either, but I dont have anything to compare it to?

I dont know about putting a M116/M117 into it, as they are getting on a bit now. They only have three speeds and...its actually hard getting one with a trans attached to it. they do not come up for sale often and more often than not, they have intergalactic miles...AND they have been sitting for donkeys years.

I am going to measure up the M60b40 (Bmw 540i engine) and see if it would physically fit. At least I have nearly 300 horse, and a 5 speed auto. It will make the right noises, at least its german?, and they do come up (in cheap cars) all the time. If it fits I will try to shoehorn one of those in.
or...
I have been looking at the more recent 3.2 v6's. If I can get a hold of an entire car, that also appeals, having said that again, we have laods of Bmw's here, and I can get a bmw straight 6 much cheaper...but I do like the sound of an eight. But if a decent 3.2 mercedes v6 with 5 speed auto came up, that would really appeal. There are loads of options, some are just better than others.The ford falcon motors here are cheap as chips, an AU 4.0 litre would move it easy, even the commodore 3.8 would...but I do like the W108 and without sounding snobbish (cause I aint) if I am going to revive it after all these years I may as well put a decent effort into it.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by ibast » Mon 03 Jul, 2017 5:12 pm

Be careful with later BMWs. Some people claim they can't be done because the electronics are too complicated. There is a lot of misinformation out there, so it may just be old school blokes rabbiting on, but it might also be true. I owned an e46 and it ran a bus bar ,instead of a full harness; so all the electronics in the car are linked. so there may be some truth in it not being possible. you may at least have to buy a high end FI computer that can control the gearbox as well, so it could end up very expensive and complicated.

Like I said, it may not be true, but do some research. Sizewise, I'm guessing it will be OK as it started life as a 3.0.

another idea might be a m119. it's kind of like a m117 with AMG heads.

But yeah the barra engine is hard to ignore. Cheap, pretty light for a 4.0 and makes almost 200kw to start with. Plenty of grunt too. And then you can get performance stuff for them. And that's in NA guise. In turbo guise they can be cranked up to pretty much any number you want.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Tue 11 Jul, 2017 4:03 pm

Thanks for all the input.

I cannot be the only one thinking that putting in a 50 year engine/trans into a 50 year old car is daft considering the options.

So here is a quick rundown of what I have considered.

Original 250 S motor - Carbed I think this one Nah, I don't think I could even find one if I wanted, and if so...no.

Fuel injected as above, nah,still ancient

2.8 twin cam...from what I have read, a lot of work for still what is an old motor, and still rare here

M104's...polarising opinion from what I can gather, but not a fan of any of the Merc autos

M112's...yeah not bad if you got one of the bigger ones, getting costly but rare to get the one you want

M117, old, bloody heavy, autos...I havent read anything nice about Merc Autos as yet...

M119, pricey here, lovely motor, try getting one though?

Falcon AU, great engine...but it makes a desirable car, less so

Falcon Barra, hard to ignore but the fly by wire...still a ford etc etc...mmm still

Commodore anything, last guy on here put one in and got flamed to hell, not bad...just not great either, doesnt move the game forward at all

Rover V8, too old, 3 speed auto, a bit fragile, sounds nice, light...old but easy to install

Audi. hahahahahaha

Lexus...want too much $$$ for them

Bmw Six, anything would fit I am sure and we can get around any electronic gremlins, cheap

BMW V8, same as above, full cars here are cheap, headers are massive, decent amount of electronics

Chev V8...too much $$$ here, would cost thousands to get it how I would like it

Ford V8...^^^ same, better fit, cheaper, just, but still ancient, $$$ to make them decent

Mopar anything is old, unless new hemi or something, all too much $$$

Anything Jap V8 is too $$$ here, after all the work more $$$ and the desirability dives.

When the weather improves I am going to measure up my M60B40 in my E34, then measure the engine bay of the W108. If its possible, that is the way I am going.

4.0 litres, quad cam, no vanos crap, obd1, no ews crap, and a 5 speed ZF built auto. I can buy a whole car here for @grand. Cant wait for better weather. I dont think anyone has put a BMW V8 into a Merc as far as I can tell, so it may be a first.

It may not improve the desirability to a degree but it will be better than the other options for the $$$ I think. I hope to NOT have to change to much with headers and sump, or else a lot of $$$$ is going to get sucked up.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by seventyeight » Tue 18 Jul, 2017 4:52 pm

L28 with Weber carbys?
1977 250 parts car (drivetrain for sale!)
1977 280>300D conversion
1978 300D NA+4 speed > factory turbo + van 5 speed > NA engine back in and HX30W turbo!
1988 2.0D Corona auto "toymota"

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Wed 26 Jul, 2017 4:05 pm

Ha,

Its funnier than you think. I have considered pretty much everything, including the good ole LD28 /RD28. I don't mind diesels at all. Its a cruiser after all.

Hopefully Summer will make me see this a bit clearer, but the M60b40 is looking like a pretty good candidate at the mo.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by seventyeight » Wed 26 Jul, 2017 4:29 pm

Well plenty of choice, Maarten Anthonise has done a lot of Merc LD28 conversions. That Beemer engine be a bit too electronic for such an old girl? Up to you of course

Would be nice to see pics of the solid rear axle swap?
1977 250 parts car (drivetrain for sale!)
1977 280>300D conversion
1978 300D NA+4 speed > factory turbo + van 5 speed > NA engine back in and HX30W turbo!
1988 2.0D Corona auto "toymota"

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:20 am

Bit of an update.

I bought a 1997 E320 off trademe last night, so thatss going to be the donor vehicle. I am hoping someone has done a M104 into a W108 conversion, because until the better weather comes around, I will do all the research I can.

I don't know how the front suspension is on these things, is it possible to change, the entire front clip? Sounds major, buts its going to be a major in any case!

As the previous owner mucked around with the steering, and I have no real reference point in terms of re-fixing it, and now on top of that, trying to get a motor and trans 30 years younger to merge nicely, it might be easier to attempt a full frontal swap. I have not pulled out the measuring tape yet, but doing this might fix the steering issue as well...it might f@#k it all up to, I have no idea.

I will pick up the car this weekend, its legal and all, and its a shame I have to autopsy it to be honest, but I needed an entire car, because the swap is going to be so comprehensive. I might look into the rear end as well, as I have an old (from what I can tell) holden or chev solid rear end in there.

This could get out of hand, might have to to work. I will start a new post on the conversion part of the board when I get a bit further ahead.

Cheers everyone!

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by merc-304 » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 9:53 am

Post some pics of what you already have - the modified steering set up and this rear axle you think you have
Some wise gents on here that can help you .
You did mention you only wanted to do Subtle Modifications ?
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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Tue 15 Aug, 2017 1:27 pm

Ha,

Yes, subtle modifications...well, I didn't at first realize the previous owner had played around with the steering geometry, I don't know what he has done because I have no baseline reference. I also didn't realize that the cross-member has been fettled with also. I also realized the somewhat senselessness of putting a 50 year old engine into a 50 year old car, because...well because if I can find a 20 year old engine, sounds better going into a 50 year old car...yeah still old I guess.

Of all the options I could or may have taken, I think this one has some merit.

1...Its a Mercedes engine drivetrain that I want to goad in there.

2...Its not original at all but, it is a straight six design, slightly larger (thats always nice) and it has an extra cog or two (its a 5 speed from what I can gather).

3...Its a Mercedes drive-train...did I mention that?

I was thinking that the Ford Falcon 4.0 would be a sweet jump up, in size and power...but it does absolutely nothing in terms of provenance. I think I have made the right choice in getting the whole car too. Whatever can make the jump over nicely, I hope to do so.

I will get some pics when I can, the weather is rubbish here, on off, on, off and when its off its bad, real bad
Summer cannot come soon enough, or at least better weather.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Mercmad » Wed 16 Aug, 2017 5:26 pm

Some where on my old computer i had a pic of a 250S I had with a Falcon 4.0 in it. I bought the car for $50 .... The falcon stroke is too short for the mercedes diff ratio and although it was quick to 100 ks it was 'busy' . Why don't you pop a merc OM 606 diesel in there? Smooth,seriously powerful with a bigger turbo and in NZ as long as you keep your road tax up ,they are cheap to run.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by ibast » Fri 18 Aug, 2017 3:20 pm

So that e320 you bought, is it a w210 or a w124 that was registered the following year?

I ask, because I'm distantly thinking of putting a w124 rear end in mine. With the exception of the top spring mounts, it's a modular design.

Although the w210 is not dissimilar.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by drew56cus » Sat 19 Aug, 2017 9:07 am

Mercmad looked into a 124 rear end for a finnie (basically the same floor pan as 108) but it wouldn't work easily. He has put a 126 rear end in instead. I haven't heard if it has been taken for a test drive yet though...
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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Thu 24 Aug, 2017 11:41 pm

So its a 1997 W210 E320,

Its going to be a hell of a job. I am seriously thinking about grafting the front clip in. Its hard anyway I do it, but it would be nice to have everything from the W210, esp the sterring rack etc and if I get the front to fit in one piece, the geometry will (should be better), ditto for the rear end if it can be done.

I will take some photos and some measurements over the weekend.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by ibast » Sat 02 Sep, 2017 9:23 am

drew56cus wrote:
Sat 19 Aug, 2017 9:07 am
Mercmad looked into a 124 rear end for a finnie (basically the same floor pan as 108) but it wouldn't work easily. He has put a 126 rear end in instead. I haven't heard if it has been taken for a test drive yet though...
Are you sure you got that the right way round? the 126 looks like the 116 and my measurements of that seemed to indicate you had to cut the rear cross channel (on the 108 anyway)

Did you do a thread Mercmad?

Very interested.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Mercmad » Mon 04 Sep, 2017 9:10 am

I have the project on hold at the moment until the owner pays me but i will pop up some pics I have on the other computer. I have a 300 W124 Diff which was going to be used and i will sell now but to fit that required chopping into the floor pan at the rear on each side, mainly the chassis connector and that didn't look like such a hot deal. A drop down chassis rail has to be placed in there. i have a new W124 chassis piece to mount the axle assembly too. Now, the W126 diff . It's been done before, the first i ever saw was in a W111 coupe with a 500 engine. A chassis link from the original large member under the boot goes towards the rear of the car, this holds the diff head section. At the front , on each side a plate with a machined nut welded to it is front diff connector mount . I removed the cross link mount and the torque arm mounts ,welded on mounts for the rear sway bar and used a pair of W108 rear springs but these are not long enough so i machined up a pair of tubes which enabled the the spring height to be set , i set them at 50 mm , the springs use the original mounts on the body and the diff. What a mate in the UK did to get around this was the SLS hydraulic struts.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Fri 08 Sep, 2017 9:01 am

O.k...

So I got a bite on another W108. I am going to pick it up on Saturday. Its reg is on hold, but the body is stuffed, so I am going to do a "re-body", saves doing the compliance on my 250S. So the comparatively awesome body of my 1967 250S, will morph into a 1971 280SE. The beauty of this car, is that it has the Motor and Trans. I have no idea what condition it is in, so (weather permitting) I am going to see if I can get it turned over and get it started. IF this motor is in or can be in decent nick without spending a ton of cash on it, I will transplant this drivetrain into the good body, and tidy up things on the way. Which means I will sell the 1997 E320 I just bought!!! timing is everything, but who was to know a W108 would turn up on trademe a fortnight after I bought the thing! If the motor is...not going so well, I will then try to transplant the M104 3.2 and auto into it. I am hoping this old 2.8 is up to it!!!! I have looked at a few videos online in regards to trying to get old engines going again without any prior knowledge so I will do my best not to stuff it all up. If its fine I will take photos, the weather has been bad as we all know.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by CraigB » Fri 08 Sep, 2017 9:35 am

Have a smell of the fuel tank. My concern would be dragging bad fuel through the injection system. Maybe try and bypass the tank with clean fuel can and pipe to it from the fuel pump in the rear.
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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Fri 08 Sep, 2017 10:15 am

Oh heck yes, I am not going to use the original gas at all, I think its all connected still but I use my portable petrol tank and hook it up to that if we get to the fire it up stage.

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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Mercmad » Fri 08 Sep, 2017 12:05 pm

Dont forget ,you will need a pressure pump to supply fuel at `14Psi to the injection pump . I usually connect the pump to the rubber hose at the fuel filter ( it's on the left engine mount arm ) and the return line goes back into the tank .Put 5 liters of 95 in the can with a bottle of injector cleaner . if it goes it will help clean it up ,if not you will at least loosen the pump and injectors. I had a 280SE back in the early 70's in NZ .At two years old it had already covered 120,000 miles, very hard miles too. So do not be surprised if the engine is a rattler.

Kiwi250-S
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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Kiwi250-S » Sun 10 Sep, 2017 7:05 pm

Hey,

Thanks for the replies everyone. As I was returning the transporter, my brother turned the motor over manually, so when I got back,that was clear. We checked the fluids, which were good, well good considering, the coolant was very green even? SO we hooked up a battery, and kicked it in the guts, no fuel, went back to the external fuel pump and mucked around with the wiring and put power to it there, which created a leak in a fuel return hose...or so we think, anyway that was whirring nicely, we got fuel eventually up to the regulator? got some bad gas out at that end, smells like polyurethane so I am guessing that is off? Put fresh gas in the tank, kicked it in the guts. I didnt go...but it wanted to, then we mucked around with the distributor and stuff. It went of course after some mucking around and it sounded like a bag of cats...but they were alive! So I pulled the plugs and they were pretty sooted up badly, cleaned them up put them back in and kicked it in the guts, and it was a bit better, mindful that there is no exhaust to speak of, so its loud and throaty. But it isnt missing, hasnt got head gasket issues and for this weekend, that will do! It steers nicely, and its all there...well minus the entire interior which I dont need.



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Mercmad
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Re: 1967 250s. NO motor or trans, I need to sort this.

Post by Mercmad » Mon 11 Sep, 2017 1:10 pm

Nice one and just rotten enough to not have regrets about parting it out. :laughing6:

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