M117.968 output

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M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Sun 05 Dec, 2010 5:45 pm

Sorry for the dumb question, but all aus delivered 560s are the 185kW smog edition one yes?

For arguments sake, if the smog junk was removed and high-flow cats were fitted, would they match the Euro 220kW output? Or was that with the tri-y exhaust system?

What I should ask, was there any difference in compression ratio or engine management/internals from the emisson crippled 185kW engine to the 220kW monster? I suppose I could also extend this question to the m117.965 and 961 5 litre variants...

Thanks,
Ryley
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by John Green » Sun 05 Dec, 2010 7:34 pm

Without looking up specs at work, I know for sure that the compression ratio was higher. 10:1 from memory.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Greg in Oz » Sun 05 Dec, 2010 10:43 pm

I just looked at the sales brochures I have for the 560SEL, SEC and SL which have a spec sheet for the Australian delivered models. They all had a 9 to 1 compression ratio and were good for 400Nm of torque (at 3500rpm in the 126 and 3250rpm in the 107). Power output was 182kW at 4800rpm in the 126 models and 175kW at 4750rpm in the 107. My understanding for the 560SL having slightly lower output to the SEL and SEC was due to the single intake air filter and restrictive exhaust system used in the SL.

As John states, the non-catalyst version of the 560 in the 126 models sold in some countries had a higher compression ratio. I believe they may have also had different camshafts and probably different ignition timing. Oz versions were also detuned for 91RON fuel whereas overseas versions would likely have needed minimun 95RON. These differences combined with the slighly less restrictive exhausts with tri-Y manifolds and without cats yielded the higher power output. The same didn't apply for the 107 as there wasn't a 560SL sold without exhaust catalyst. The most powerful version of the 107 was the 500 without exhaust catalyst good for 180kW and 410Nm.

After seeing these specs I know why the 500SLC goes so well. Not only is it a lighter than the 560SL, it is also develops a little more power and torque, all topped off with a shorter diff for better acceleration.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by 420 SE » Sun 05 Dec, 2010 11:37 pm

Well I'm glad I have a non strangled HK 420 then, 10:1 and 170kw.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Mon 06 Dec, 2010 1:03 am

Thanks for that! That is pretty crappy... I think I'd prefer to buy a good imported one then! My non-strangled 380 goes quite well, and with 160kW, an extra 20kW for an extra 1.8litres is pretty crappy!

According to wiki, from 1988 onwards both Euro and the Catalyst versions were both 10:1. Can anyone confirm this? If I did go from 380 to 560 I would definately get that little extra for a new exhaust and extractors ;)

Is there any way to determine what spec the engine is from the engine number?

That silver imported 560SEL is looking good about now...
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Giles » Mon 06 Dec, 2010 12:02 pm

Maybe the best thing to do would dyno and road test each prospect as all these figures were when the cars were new( 20 plus years ago). Chances are that some may be at only 50% of original specs. of power output :boohoo:

If you are going to outlay up to $20k (on a good one), not only do the homework which you're doing, but budget on some travelling expences and be prepared for the odd dissapointment.

I originally wanted a 560SEL a couple of years ago, but with the lack of options available here in WA, I wasn't going to take a punt on buying anything I couldn't drive or personally inspect. When I stumbled across the 300SEL, which I purchased, the overall condition of it won me. I've never driven a 560SEL yet but as they're not renowned as tyre shredding powerhouses, what's the difference between these two cars from a distance. Not forgetting at the time I had two other V8's with higher torque outputs to drive and all I really wanted was the comfort factor.
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Now as for 560SEC, it's always been a personalb favourite,but the power output of an AMG version is not daunting it todays terrms. Mind you, it's probably the coolest MB money can buy for less than $20K.

Good luck with the hunt.


Regards,

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Mon 06 Dec, 2010 6:21 pm

Cheers Giles, appreciate it. I'm not so much worried about how much power they had, but rather how much i can free them up without opening the engine up (ie would prefer one with 10:1 CR, even if they have lost a fer german horses), and so i can buy optimum.

But you are right, were I cannot get someone trustworthy to inspect a car for me, I won't worry. I've bought many of my Toyotas interstate thanks to car club member inspections.

You're right, the SEC is very very suave...

In other news I found my spare Toyota 7MGTE injectors (low resistance, 440cc/min) fit and seal in the M116 head. Plus you can get a set of 6 for around $100 in VGC.... Maybe I will just do the current car? Things got interesting. Will post up pics etc in the mod section once I finish the clutch on the black car.

Cheers guys
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Mon 31 Jan, 2011 10:52 pm

Just to revive this thread:

The 500SEC I'm buying has tri-ys, dual snorkel etc. etc. I think it's a UK car. I'm fairly certain it's a 10:1 CR model, but it has a catalytic converter.

is the only difference between the 117.965RUF and 117.965KAT the catalytic converter? are the cams etc the same?

thanks,
ryley
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by StreekG » Tue 01 Feb, 2011 12:40 am

Even smogged up 560 have different cams i've heard.

I read a while ago, and i'm pretty sure i remember correctly. M117.965 500 motor with a cat has an output of 185kw... Opposed to 195 without one.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Tue 01 Feb, 2011 7:39 am

that's the one, the 185kW one... I'm hoping the cams are the same as the RUF one and it's only the EGR and cat that give it the power and torque defecit...
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by CraigB » Tue 01 Feb, 2011 2:17 pm

That is an interesting topic I hadn't thought about - what would it take to convert my australian 560sel into 220kw. I can imagine the cams are not impossible to find and someone had posted a euro site with sport cams for the M102 pretty cheap, and i checked the M117 but they only had standard profile, but of course that would be 220kw standard I guess - must search for that link. Heads off and shaved is not the end of the world, particularly if you are going to do your tensioner, valve stem seals and guides. New exhaust ..... but is there anything else. If that was all it is probably a pretty cheap 35kw, but then cheaper still if you buy the import in the first place.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by AMG » Tue 01 Feb, 2011 3:15 pm

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11896#p76852

Camshafts and EZL are different on RüF / ECE /KAT / NV versions.

you can purchase the cams from forum sponsor. However, you WILL need the following:

New Sprockets
New cam followers
new adjusters/ lifters (hydraulic)

advised also:
New guides (pactene ones from John)
New Timing Chain
New timing chain tensioner.

Don't consider undertaking a camshaft change unless you have a spare 3.5K laying around. failure to use new sprockets, followers and adjusters will result in a chewed out camshaft within a very very short space of time and all your investment gone.

Despite the factory manual showing good practice on removal etc, you SHOULD drive the car under varying loads and conditions for 1500km with new oil / filter to 'break in' the new cams. then you need to go back and check all the valve lash measurements on a cold engine, and reshim the adjusters as necessary.

in my own experience it's a pain in the arse, but my valvetrain is dead quiet ;)
Current:
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1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
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1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardenne Green "Oswald"
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Tue 01 Feb, 2011 5:02 pm

Thanks Joe. I realise there is a fair bit of info going around for the RUF/ECE/KAT 560s, but not as much for the 10:1 CR 500s.

So if the cams and EZL differ between the 185kW and 195kW 500s, I reckon a nice exhaust will do, the expense of cams+friends isn't worth the measly 10kW for me. If I want power I'll supercharge it, or drive a different car.

Craig, AFAIK the aus-spec 560s were all 9:1.... According to the docco Joe put up in the other thread :)

Thanks!!
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by StreekG » Tue 01 Feb, 2011 6:43 pm

I bought a set of cams, had them reground to factory spec, as they had some surface rust, installed, new lifters, the lot, cost me just over 2k inc labour
1988 500SEC M117.965
Eibach springs, Bilstein B8 Sprints, 18x8.5" + 18x10" AMG 2 Piece wheels, Custom twin S/S Exhaust, 2.47 LSD Diff, Full ICE install, Intake, Stage II cams, adjustable cam gears, upgraded gearbox with 2000rpm stall converter

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by AMG » Tue 01 Feb, 2011 9:09 pm

StreekG wrote:I bought a set of cams, had them reground to factory spec, as they had some surface rust, installed, new lifters, the lot, cost me just over 2k inc labour
Don't know what you mean by 'the lot' because new sprockets (which are essential to spot on timing) are about 100 each, and followers are about 20 ea plus tax, theres 16 of those... plus chain, guides, tensioner rail & tensioner (200), cam bearing oiler clips, hydraulic adjusters i think are about 60 ea ... thats not including the camshafts themselves... about 500 ea.. you're already up to almost 3K in parts, not including tax, and I haven't listed everything that should be done.

Can you tell us exactly what parts you changed for new?
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardenne Green "Oswald"
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by AndrewsSL/SEL » Tue 01 Feb, 2011 9:27 pm

StreekG wrote:I bought a set of cams, had them reground to factory spec, as they had some surface rust, installed, new lifters, the lot, cost me just over 2k inc labour
Hey Steve I hope the work wasn't done by our "friend" in Moorabbin! :Doh: :Doh:
Andrew

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by StreekG » Tue 01 Feb, 2011 9:41 pm

Camshafts were given to me. Timing chaing and guides have been done before i bought the car, i checked up the last major service after i bought the car, which they were done at about 104,000 now im on 140.

edit: forgot to mention those bits ;)
1988 500SEC M117.965
Eibach springs, Bilstein B8 Sprints, 18x8.5" + 18x10" AMG 2 Piece wheels, Custom twin S/S Exhaust, 2.47 LSD Diff, Full ICE install, Intake, Stage II cams, adjustable cam gears, upgraded gearbox with 2000rpm stall converter

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by CraigB » Tue 01 Feb, 2011 10:48 pm

Once again i missed or forgot another post..... arent you paying attention!!

Anyway, the ezl, is it different mapping or something or just the knock sensor thing mentioned? And changing to fit different pin numbers etc doesn't sound easy. So changing the lifters/followers - is that about needing something different due to different lift, or is it just replacing because likely to be worn and while it is all out might as well replace for the relative cost? And the cam sprockets is about wear only? And they are the only ones to worry about for wear?

And from the angle of 'bang for buck' mods - I imagine just changing to tri-y and catless will only improve performance but you wont get the whole deal. And then raising compression alone now that we have better fuel would also help and these items are probably the cheapest? Just wonder how much those are worth relative to the real deal. And I guess it is not that hard to calculate how much needs to come off the heads to get the 10:1. And that amount the standard chain etc will work fine, probably a small amount coming off. Not about to pull mine apart just yet but just good to know what the options are.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Fotografa » Wed 02 Feb, 2011 10:02 am

On this subject, well, sort of, anyway. And Joe might be able to help with an answer here.

Camshafts. My 500SLC has no issues, and has done about 200,000+ km. Is it worth me getting a pair of camshafts to hang onto for when I may need them? I haven't looked at the cams yet, or anything under the valve covers, but obviously if there was issues it would be a yes, but the question is, if my cams 'appear' fine, is it worth having them?

The reason I ask, is that due to a pricing anomoly, the camshafts for my car are about $200 each (For genuine MB from MB).
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by AMG » Wed 02 Feb, 2011 8:04 pm

CraigB wrote:Once again i missed or forgot another post..... arent you paying attention!!

Anyway, the ezl, is it different mapping or something or just the knock sensor thing mentioned? And changing to fit different pin numbers etc doesn't sound easy. So changing the lifters/followers - is that about needing something different due to different lift, or is it just replacing because likely to be worn and while it is all out might as well replace for the relative cost? And the cam sprockets is about wear only? And they are the only ones to worry about for wear?

And from the angle of 'bang for buck' mods - I imagine just changing to tri-y and catless will only improve performance but you wont get the whole deal. And then raising compression alone now that we have better fuel would also help and these items are probably the cheapest? Just wonder how much those are worth relative to the real deal. And I guess it is not that hard to calculate how much needs to come off the heads to get the 10:1. And that amount the standard chain etc will work fine, probably a small amount coming off. Not about to pull mine apart just yet but just good to know what the options are.
EZL references need to be made against chassis# & engine serial# in the EPC, so you can verify which specific part number is required. The reason for this is because they contain different ignition maps. EZL units are engine model specific. the EZL contains about 15 different maps for various conditions controlled through the ECU based on feedback from sensor inputs. Those sensor inputs are constantly forwarded to the ECU, which processes them and in turn selects the appropriate EZL map.
The ECU is model/engine specific. There are revised ECU's for some engines which are 'backwards compatible' but these need to be referred to with the engine serial number and EPC footnotes. coupled with that, there are parameters for adjustment within some EZLs of advance or retard with a resistor (known as R16), which alters input on the ECU and the result is transition signal by the ECU to the EZL's next 'best' map. It doesn't actually alter the total advance or retard outside the existing maps embedded on the PROM chip
This means ECU & EZL are obviously specific to the engine type and the camshafts in the engine match the electronics.
The revised camshaft part numbers (which superceded a particular cam for a particular engine) will still operate within the ezl limitations, but there is no sense in putting a cam from 220kW 5.6 into a 178kW 4.5 without changing the rest of the electronics. without doing this, not only are the gains insignificant, the ignition timing will be completely misaligned, the fuelling will be wrong (but may be adjusted to a degree) and the sensors will not correctly feedback to the ECU. The ECU may then send a 'wrong' signal to the EZL, causing ignition problems. The knock-on effects can result in not just poor performance, but lead to detonation, lean conditions, backfires through the intake amongst other things.

In some cases (e.g. 'gen2' w126.039 and post sept 85 r107.048) the ECU is shared, but the EZL part numbers are different. being from the 'same' engine family and displacement, and having the same mechanical parts does not indicate the cams or ignition setup are identical. You really need to check the engine and chassis # in the EPC.
Fotografa wrote:On this subject, well, sort of, anyway. And Joe might be able to help with an answer here.

Camshafts. My 500SLC has no issues, and has done about 200,000+ km. Is it worth me getting a pair of camshafts to hang onto for when I may need them? I haven't looked at the cams yet, or anything under the valve covers, but obviously if there was issues it would be a yes, but the question is, if my cams 'appear' fine, is it worth having them?

The reason I ask, is that due to a pricing anomoly, the camshafts for my car are about $200 each (For genuine MB from MB).
One word answer to that, yes! buy a few sets at that rate! keep a set for regrinding into a lumpy one ;)

If I could get cosworth cams for 3 times that price I'd be ecstatic. 200 is a bargain, even if the cam needs nitriding...
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
1992 Range Rover Vogue SE 4sp auto Ardenne Green "Oswald"
2012 Renault Sport Megane RS265 Trophy 8:08 6 sp. man. Liquid Yellow "Jean Rédélé"
Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
1987 190E 2.6 4sp. auto Signalrot "Sabine" - which now resides/owns Andrew M's Garage
1972 350SLC Astralsilber "Lurch" - now in the loving care of Craig B
1989 2.5-16 Blauschwarz 4sp. auto (parted) formerly owned by Derek/Hasan.

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Thu 03 Feb, 2011 10:32 pm

While I understand the whole M117.968 EZL/cams affair, there is one question i still have

Is it the same principles between the 185kW 10:1CR 5.0 litre KAT and 195kW 10:1 5.0litre RUF? IE different cams and EZL? Or just cat and EGR?
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Fudger49 » Wed 12 Oct, 2011 6:21 pm

08102011351.jpg
I've just picked up this 560SE - WDB1260381A554641 with engine number 117.968 12 090426, the data card says it has option 620, but it is a late Euro car so what engine output is it likely to have? It hasn't been started for 3 years so have not driven it yet - but the price was too good to ignore...
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Giles » Wed 12 Oct, 2011 11:11 pm

Fudger49 wrote:
08102011351.jpg
I've just picked up this 560SE - WDB1260381A554641 with engine number 117.968 12 090426, the data card says it has option 620, but it is a late Euro car so what engine output is it likely to have? It hasn't been started for 3 years so have not driven it yet - but the price was too good to ignore...
Hi Fudger49, did you also buy yourself another 500E.

Giles
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Fudger49 » Wed 12 Oct, 2011 11:17 pm

01102011310.jpg
Hi Giles, it's same 500E that I've had for about a year now, the blue one here...

Any clue on the 560SE engine?

Any sightings of my old black one in Perth?

Mike
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Mercmad » Thu 13 Oct, 2011 2:24 pm

How late? 620 is the high output Pre cat engine option which was for cars built prior to 1985 without cats but which were designed to be retrofitted with Cats by the dealer after 1986.
Your engine should be the 220KW (300HP) version with 10-1 compression.

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Fudger49 » Thu 13 Oct, 2011 3:29 pm

Mercmad wrote:How late?
Well it says 1991 on the registration papers, and has ASR which I believe was only available in '91? I haven't looked underneath to see if cats are there as yet. Over the next week or two I will have a close look at it and post more pics / details up in a new thread, as I am hoping to make this a bit of a project car. It's a one owner with 187,000km on it, the family owned several Benz hence the mileage is not too bad, and they stopped driving this one 3 years ago (original owner is now 75).

560SE.jpg
08102011350.jpg
08102011347.jpg
08102011339.jpg
08102011345.jpg
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Giles » Thu 13 Oct, 2011 6:48 pm

Fudger49 wrote:
01102011310.jpg
Hi Giles, it's same 500E that I've had for about a year now, the blue one here...

Any clue on the 560SE engine?

Any sightings of my old black one in Perth?

Mike
No sightings as I'm no longer in the MBCCWA (no time for tea, scones & sherry). I only get to Perth every now and again.

Send me some info on any 500E's or any early W210 AMG Estates if you come across any. I'm wanting to bring something in that's a "GO-GO Mobile. Don't mind LHD if it's 15 years or older. Your Blue 500E looks the goods, NICE.

Regards,

Giles
1981 500SLC (Colour Black) Keeper car 'Lola' walks like woman, talks like a man
1999 E430 Avantgarde Royal Indigo (Colour 339) Mums Taxi 'Claudia'
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by same-joe » Thu 13 Oct, 2011 8:00 pm

your 560se is a very rare car , i believe they only built 1250 between 1988 / 91 !

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Fri 14 Oct, 2011 4:29 am

RyleyMA61 wrote:While I understand the whole M117.968 EZL/cams affair, there is one question i still have

Is it the same principles between the 185kW 10:1CR 5.0 litre KAT and 195kW 10:1 5.0litre RUF? IE different cams and EZL? Or just cat and EGR?
Salut! :glasses2:

RUF and KAT has identical camshafts (within the limits of model years, i.e. different camshafts for up to engine number 016682 and as of 016683) and identical "EZL" (up to 09/1987) and "EZL/AKR" (after 09/1987) ECU.
But different a EZL's correcting tip.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Fri 14 Oct, 2011 5:01 am

Fudger49 wrote:
08102011351.jpg
I've just picked up this 560SE - WDB1260381A554641 with engine number 117.968 12 090426, the data card says it has option 620, but it is a late Euro car so what engine output is it likely to have? It hasn't been started for 3 years so have not driven it yet - but the price was too good to ignore...
This car has code #62/0 in data-card and for this reason has 205 kW/279 h.p.. Dealer code #220 - Hanover branch.
All petrol MB models delivered in Germany after approx. 09/1986 has had code 620 as standard equipment.

P.S.
Unknown codes in data-card:
872 - seat heater for rear seat bench
300 - storage box in front tray
172 (172U) - anthracite grey met.
261 (261A) - leather black
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Fri 14 Oct, 2011 5:02 am

same-joe wrote:your 560se is a very rare car , i believe they only built 1250 between 1988 / 91 !
1 252 :book:

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Fudger49 » Sat 15 Oct, 2011 11:19 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:
Fudger49 wrote:
08102011351.jpg
I've just picked up this 560SE - WDB1260381A554641 with engine number 117.968 12 090426, the data card says it has option 620, but it is a late Euro car so what engine output is it likely to have? It hasn't been started for 3 years so have not driven it yet - but the price was too good to ignore...
This car has code #62/0 in data-card and for this reason has 205 kW/279 h.p.. Dealer code #220 - Hanover branch.
All petrol MB models delivered in Germany after approx. 09/1986 has had code 620 as standard equipment.

P.S.
Unknown codes in data-card:
872 - seat heater for rear seat bench
300 - storage box in front tray
172 (172U) - anthracite grey met.
261 (261A) - leather black
Thank you for that.

So what are the hardware differences between the 205KW and the 220KW engines? It's already 10:1 compression, so is a cat delete and different EZL trim resistor all that is required for an upgrade, or is the EZL different? Cams appear to be the same part number in the EPC.

Mike

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Sun 16 Oct, 2011 2:02 am

Fudger49 wrote: So what are the hardware differences between the 205KW and the 220KW engines? It's already 10:1 compression, so is a cat delete and different EZL trim resistor all that is required for an upgrade, or is the EZL different? Cams appear to be the same part number in the EPC.

Mike
"How to squeeze out 300 h.p. from M117" :dance:
http://mbcoupes.by/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28

  • Camshafts
    ECE/RUF - Intake valves open at 17 (16)* degree after top dead centre; camshaft designation L - 24, R - 25 (or older (up to 09/1987) for ECE: 16 and 17); part number L - 117 051 2401, R - 117 051 2501
    KAT - ones open at 27 (26)*; L - 26, R - 27; L - 117 051 2401, R - 117 051 2701
    * - In brackets are specified value for right head valves on motor with new chain and mileage less 20.000 km
  • Exhaust manifolds
    ECE/RUF - 1 per 2 cylinders
    KAT - 1 per 4 cylinders
  • EZL/AKR's and CIS-E (KE-) correcting tips
    ECE/RUF - 015 545 72 28 (white font) and 014 545 7028 (sealed up)
    KAT - 015 545 6628 (green font) and 014 545 7128 (sealed up)
  • Pneumatic actuator (Unterdruckdose)
    ECE/RUF - black, 126 270 3000 (pressure 4.0)
    KAT - red, 126 270 3100 (pressure 4.2)
  • Exhaust pipes "with" or "without" catalytic converter - different first two parts from four
    ECE/RUF - 1st: 126 490 6019+126 490 8719 and 2nd: 126 490 8619
    KAT - 1st: 126 490 9219+126 492 2602 and 2nd: 126 490 9419
  • Air pump
    ECE/RUF - screw plug, part number N 000908 022010
  • Lambda


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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Thu 20 Oct, 2011 2:00 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:
RyleyMA61 wrote:While I understand the whole M117.968 EZL/cams affair, there is one question i still have

Is it the same principles between the 185kW 10:1CR 5.0 litre KAT and 195kW 10:1 5.0litre RUF? IE different cams and EZL? Or just cat and EGR?
Salut! :glasses2:

RUF and KAT has identical camshafts (within the limits of model years, i.e. different camshafts for up to engine number 016682 and as of 016683) and identical "EZL" (up to 09/1987) and "EZL/AKR" (after 09/1987) ECU.
But different a EZL's correcting tip.
Thankyou! I had been searching for this information for so long and really appreciate your help!

My engine is a 1988 M117.965 10:1 CR KAT model- I am assuming it's the 10:1 CR because of the twin snorkel air intake, tri-y headers and general acceleration feel. I will get an engine number once home to establish exactly what I ahve under the bonnet.

Also... where do I find it and how do I adjust it? I wish to check that it set correctly for 98RON fuel.

Thanks Dr Diesel I really appreciate it!
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Fri 21 Oct, 2011 3:36 am

RyleyMA61 wrote:
Dr Diesel wrote:
RyleyMA61 wrote:While I understand the whole M117.968 EZL/cams affair, there is one question i still have

Is it the same principles between the 185kW 10:1CR 5.0 litre KAT and 195kW 10:1 5.0litre RUF? IE different cams and EZL? Or just cat and EGR?
Salut! :glasses2:

RUF and KAT has identical camshafts (within the limits of model years, i.e. different camshafts for up to engine number 016682 and as of 016683) and identical "EZL" (up to 09/1987) and "EZL/AKR" (after 09/1987) ECU.
But different a EZL's correcting tip.
Thankyou! I had been searching for this information for so long and really appreciate your help!

My engine is a 1988 M117.965 10:1 CR KAT model- I am assuming it's the 10:1 CR because of the twin snorkel air intake, tri-y headers and general acceleration feel. I will get an engine number once home to establish exactly what I ahve under the bonnet.

Also... where do I find it and how do I adjust it? I wish to check that it set correctly for 98RON fuel.

Thanks Dr Diesel I really appreciate it!
:glasses2:

Oh, sorry :error: I forgot about KE- (ECU) correcting tip - it is different for KAT- and for ECE/RUF-version:
KAT - "KAT" 014 545 70 28
ECE/RUF - "ECE" 014 545 70 28
All 117 and 116 engines has had EZL/AKR and 10:1 comp. ratio after 09/1987. And ignition system correcting tip not need to adjusting.

What VIN of your SEC? I describe combinations for standard versions, i.e. versions for Germany, but your car may has a differences.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Thu 15 Dec, 2011 5:42 pm

Since the discussion is going on here, I may as well ask away:

I found my EZL dial and sticker, take a gander:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/7959/dsc2672c.jpg

This was set to '7'. Seeing as though I only run 98 RON, I set it back to "4" as per the following diagrams:

Image

Image

Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

Can anyone confirm, for maximum ignition advance for 98RON, should I crank it to "1" as per the ECE engines, or will "4" give me the best timing advance for 98RON. I realise using the ECE setting my detriment emissions, my catalyst etc, but I would just like to know.

And here's my stickers, and a dead bug:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6289/dsc2671u.jpg

Thanks for your help!
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Fri 16 Dec, 2011 3:34 am

Return it in position "7" (if engine runs well; default position is "1")!!! This is a KE- correcting tip, not EZL. It must have a seal.
Position of this tip change only if the mechanical parts of KE-Jetronic are completely serviceable, but the KE-Jet system (as a whole - mech. + elec. parts) functions not correctly.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Fri 16 Dec, 2011 4:25 am

Find EZL-tip behind firewall, on the left side of the car.
A position "1" is for 98 RON.
"S" - for 95 RON.
"N" - for 91 RON.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Fri 16 Dec, 2011 9:20 am

Thanks Dr Diesel!!

I did not know it was the KE adjustment tip.

The car does run very well, has only travelled 165,000km. Only issue I have found is it's a little thirsty. (13l/100km on the highway and around 18l/100km around town)

Does the position of the KE tip change the amount of fuel, and therefore air/fuel ratios?

Alas my car doesn't have an EZL dial on the firewall, I can't seem to find one anywhere!

Thanks heaps for clearing that up, I really appreciate it.

Ryley
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Mercmad » Fri 16 Dec, 2011 8:04 pm

If you have the later car,lift the carpet in the left foot well. There is a plastic floor board cover. Unscrew it with the 1/4 turn plugs. Under the floor board plate you will find the engine and trans ECU's the EZL adjustor is there with a lead seal on it. Unless you are having a real problem,do not touch it until you have had the oxy sensor removed and pressure test done on the exhaust.
If the cat is blocked you will get fuel problems(excess consumption and low power) .

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Sat 17 Dec, 2011 12:26 am

Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI wrote: Alas my car doesn't have an EZL dial on the firewall, I can't seem to find one anywhere!
VIN? :wave:
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Sat 17 Dec, 2011 9:19 pm

Dr Diesel further to the ignition set-up discussion above
my ignition set-up in my 1987 500SEC is for an ECE engine running a 4 pin "003 545 9132" EZL and twin trims
The build date was Feb87 however during its life in Hong Kong the engine was swapped out for a later 500 engine built Sept87 out of a Hong Kong delivered 500SEL which had a
VIN WDB1260372A364010
The engine No. is 117965 22 016756HV and it has knock sensors which i can't use the 3 pin plug as the 4 pin EZL is not set up for this, so its done with the manual trimmers still.

A pic of the trim sticker above the headlight is attached below, together with a pic of the trim behind the firewall.
The trim in the footwell is wirelocked on setting 1 and the dial reads - Part # 016 545 028 /other writing: 9251 20 ECE
The ECU in the footwell reads - part # 006 545 0932 /VDO 412.220/001/002
The engine runs the full factory set up - Tri-Y's/a twin in-twin out CAT but no oxygen sensors and no airpump
I run 98RON fuel at all times, so my question on the ECE trim setting is it set correct for maximum advance mapping
"the sticker advice appears to suggest setting 1 (S) position for maximum advance on the firewall trim"
Can you confirm thats how you read it as well?
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Sun 18 Dec, 2011 6:26 pm

kimrh,
all is correct.

:king:
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Mon 19 Dec, 2011 3:57 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:
Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI wrote: Alas my car doesn't have an EZL dial on the firewall, I can't seem to find one anywhere!
VIN? :wave:
WDB1260442A413788

Thanks mate!
Mercmad wrote:If you have the later car,lift the carpet in the left foot well. There is a plastic floor board cover. Unscrew it with the 1/4 turn plugs. Under the floor board plate you will find the engine and trans ECU's the EZL adjustor is there with a lead seal on it. Unless you are having a real problem,do not touch it until you have had the oxy sensor removed and pressure test done on the exhaust.
If the cat is blocked you will get fuel problems(excess consumption and low power) .
Mine had no seal or anything, and was set at 7, so I get the impression it has been tampered with- for good or for bad, unsure. As pictured uit has no "s" or "N" like Kim's...

I just want to understand where it should be- I have a wideband I can check AFRs with and can keep an eye on ignition timing.

The car is somewhat thirsty (even for a 500SEC :director: ) and I just want to check it's optimised for 98RON and timing well. The car runs well as is, just thirsty, and Greg from Oz and KimB mentioned when they drove it for me it was slower than the 107 500SEC 180kW version..

That said, it still has the original catalyst on the car, which will be need of replacement/deletion... But I will be building a twin 2.25" exhaust for it over Christmas...

Thanks for all the help everyone.
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Greg in Oz » Mon 19 Dec, 2011 8:51 pm

Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI wrote:... The car runs well as is, just thirsty, and Greg from Oz and KimB mentioned when they drove it for me it was slower than the 107 500SEC 180kW version...
Even if the 500SEC has the 190kW engine, it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't launch the way the 500SLC does. The 500SLC is probably a couple of hundred kilos lighter (1515kg versus probably 1700 plus) and has a shorter diff (2.72 in my SLC versus something like 2.47 in your SEC). Even moderately enthusiastic use of the loud pedal in first gear in the 500SLC will light up both back tyres (LSD) and leave two black lines up the road. :laughing6:
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by bahnstormer109 » Mon 19 Dec, 2011 9:23 pm

The owners manual for my 560SEL lists specs for 2 types of engine in the specs at the back- 200kw and 220kw. Why doesnt it mention 185kw? Are there 3 types of engine?
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Greg in Oz » Mon 19 Dec, 2011 9:51 pm

bahnstormer109 wrote:The owners manual for my 560SEL lists specs for 2 types of engine in the specs at the back- 200kw and 220kw. Why doesnt it mention 185kw? Are there 3 types of engine?
I just checked the specs for the 1987 MB model range in Australia. The 560SEL and 560SEC were rated at 182kW DIN at 4800rpm and 400Nm at 3500rpm. The 560SL was rated at 175kW DIN at 4750rpm and 400Nm at 3250rpm. The lower output of the Aussie versions was due to the EZL map being detuned to suit 91RON which was the only readily available unleaded petrol here at that time. It is for this reason that privately imported 5 litre engines (in the 107 and 126) and 5.6 litre engines (in the 126) are so favoured here for their additional performance.
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107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

User avatar
Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI
450 SEL 6.9
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat 23 Feb, 2008 5:54 pm
Model you own: w126
Location: Ballarat, Victoria

Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Mon 19 Dec, 2011 10:07 pm

Greg in Oz wrote:
Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI wrote:... The car runs well as is, just thirsty, and Greg from Oz and KimB mentioned when they drove it for me it was slower than the 107 500SEC 180kW version...
Even if the 500SEC has the 190kW engine, it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't launch the way the 500SLC does. The 500SLC is probably a couple of hundred kilos lighter (1515kg versus probably 1700 plus) and has a shorter diff (2.72 in my SLC versus something like 2.47 in your SEC). Even moderately enthusiastic use of the loud pedal in first gear in the 500SLC will light up both back tyres (LSD) and leave two black lines up the road. :laughing6:
videos or it didnt happen :dance:

Nah I remembered after posting the difference in mass, that certainly would help :)
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

User avatar
Dr Diesel
Adenauer
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed 28 Sep, 2011 12:44 am
Model you own: I own multiple different models
Location: CH

Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Mon 19 Dec, 2011 10:23 pm

Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI wrote:WDB1260442A413788
The car has no KAT (according to data-card).
Your car has no EZL correcting tip behind the firewall, because it has EZL/AKR ignition system and correcting tip is located on EZL/AKR ignition control box.

(how I haven't guessed it earlier :king: )

See here (round trimmer plug with green font):
Image
, but on your 500 SEC it must be with white font. Check it.

Try to install KE- trimmer plug in position "1".
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/7959/dsc2672c.jpg
:read2:
I think it will help to solve a problem :laughing5: :
500 SEC
7.2 sec from 0 to 100 km/h.
500SLC
8.5 sec from 0 to 100 km/h.
Mercedes-Benz. Ihr guter Stern auf allen Straßen
VIN checking

User avatar
Dr Diesel
Adenauer
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed 28 Sep, 2011 12:44 am
Model you own: I own multiple different models
Location: CH

Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Mon 19 Dec, 2011 10:35 pm

Greg in Oz wrote:The 560SEL and 560SEC were rated at 182kW DIN at 4800rpm
In original microfiche i find 178 kW. :dontknow:
Mercedes-Benz. Ihr guter Stern auf allen Straßen
VIN checking

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