M117.968 output

1979-1991 280SE, 300SE, 300SEL, 380SE, 380SEL, 380SEC, 420SE, 420SEL, 420SEC, 500SE, 500SEL, 500SEC, 560SEL, 560SEC
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Greg in Oz
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Greg in Oz » Mon 19 Dec, 2011 10:44 pm

Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI wrote:...videos or it didnt happen :dance:
...
There may (or may not) be another OBENZer who, along with his SWMBO (both reputedly inclined to make enthusiastic use of the loud pedal themselves), may (or may not) have encouraged an owner of a 500SLC to accidentally make brief but moderately enthusiastic use of the loud pedal, which may (or may not) have resulted in a "number 11" being imprinted on the road in front of said OZBENZer's place of residence. :whistle:
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Greg in Oz » Mon 19 Dec, 2011 10:49 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:
Greg in Oz wrote:The 560SEL and 560SEC were rated at 182kW DIN at 4800rpm
In original microfiche i find 178 kW. :dontknow:
I :dontknow: either. The specs I have are from a 1987 MB Australia sales document.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI » Tue 20 Dec, 2011 2:46 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:
Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI wrote:WDB1260442A413788
The car has no KAT (according to data-card).
Your car has no EZL correcting tip behind the firewall, because it has EZL/AKR ignition system and correcting tip is located on EZL/AKR ignition control box.

(how I haven't guessed it earlier :king: )

See here (round trimmer plug with green font):
Image
, but on your 500 SEC it must be with white font. Check it.

Try to install KE- trimmer plug in position "1".
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/7959/dsc2672c.jpg
:read2:
I think it will help to solve a problem :laughing5: :
500 SEC
7.2 sec from 0 to 100 km/h.
500SLC
8.5 sec from 0 to 100 km/h.
Awesome, thanks so much! Strangely enough, there is definately a catalyst under the car, with an oxygen sensor in it, and my KE trimmer plug does say "KAT" on it.

Nevertheless I will pop it on position "1" and go from there!

My EZL plug is black, with the font uncoloured- it's black moulded plastic like the whole cap...
Greg in Oz wrote:
Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI wrote:...videos or it didnt happen :dance:
...
There may (or may not) be another OBENZer who, along with his SWMBO (both reputedly inclined to make enthusiastic use of the loud pedal themselves), may (or may not) have encouraged an owner of a 500SLC to accidentally make brief but moderately enthusiastic use of the loud pedal, which may (or may not) have resulted in a "number 11" being imprinted on the road in front of said OZBENZer's place of residence. :whistle:
Hahahah, excellent... I have 'heard of' similar experiences with suprise kickdown into first gear in a certain mercedes, albeit with less dramatic, but still pleasantly suprising, results.

Thanks all for the help, I owe you all a beer/wine/scotch when i eventually meet up with you all!
Last edited by Panzerkampfwagen CXXVI on Tue 20 Dec, 2011 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'88 W126 500SEC HV - Rauchsilber - 17" AMGs, H&R Springs, St/St exhaust, LSD - 200kW
'99 Toyota JZA80 Supra Twin Turbo VVTi - Stock ish
'84 Toyota MA61 Supra - 3 litre turbo - ~300kW, ~590Nm - Too much torque for the driveline :'(

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Greg in Oz
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Greg in Oz » Tue 20 Dec, 2011 4:38 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:... I think it will help to solve a problem :laughing5: :
500 SEC
7.2 sec from 0 to 100 km/h.
500SLC
8.5 sec from 0 to 100 km/h.
I missed this earlier and I'm not sure how the physics of that works. Remember that both cars have essentially the same engine and 4 speed auto transmission. How can the heavier car (15% heavier?) with the taller (numerically lower) final drive ratio accelerate 1.3 seconds faster, even if it is the high output version with 5% to 7% more engine power?

0 to 100km/h acceleration times I have seen cover a range of values. For the 500SLC (4 speed auto) it is most commonly stated at 7.8 seconds and I recall reading a test claiming 7.3 sec. For the earlier 450SLC 5.0 (3 speed auto) it is commonly stated at 8.5 seconds, although again I recall seeing better results, understandable considering the heavier 450SLC could achieve well under 9 seconds (165kW versions without emission controls) and even the 350SLC could manage 9 seconds.

Consistent acceleration times for the 500SEC are more difficult to find, possibly due to the various engine outputs, although 8.1 seconds is often stated. Of course, if you want the best performing 126 (other than AMG and other modified versions), you would probably do well to go for the high output (220kW) version of the 560, even with its very tall final drive ratio.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Dr Diesel
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Sat 24 Dec, 2011 4:36 am

Code 822 - ECE-version, 220 kW [in comparison with KAT (178 kW) and RÜF (200 kW)], up to 08/1987:
  • different camshafts - 16/17 designation,
  • different KE- control unit - 004 545 25 32 (in modern parts catalog it is replaced with ECU for KAT/RÜF)
  • EZL control box - 004 545 34 32,
  • EZL correcting trimmer plug - 013 545 78 28 "EZL",
  • different exhaust tri-y manifolds (in comp. with KAT),
  • different pistons (e=10.0:1),
  • different vacuum modulator - black, 126 270 43 79 (in comp. with KAT), 4.0 bar modulating pressure (RÜF - 4.2, KAT - 3.8).
Mercedes-Benz. Ihr guter Stern auf allen Straßen.

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Greg in Oz
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Greg in Oz » Sat 24 Dec, 2011 4:06 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:Code 822 - ECE-version, 220 kW [in comparison with KAT (178 kW) and RÜF (200 kW)], up to 08/1987:
  • different camshafts - 16/17 designation,
  • different KE- control unit - 004 545 25 32 (in modern parts catalog it is replaced with ECU for KAT/RÜF)
  • EZL control box - 004 545 34 32,
  • EZL correcting trimmer plug - 013 545 78 28 "EZL",
  • different exhaust tri-y manifolds (in comp. with KAT),
  • different pistons (e=10.0:1),
  • different vacuum modulator - black, 126 270 43 79 (in comp. with KAT), 4.0 bar modulating pressure (RÜF - 4.2, KAT - 3.8).
So, for anyone with an Aussie delivered 560 with 178kW (or is that 182kW?), you now know what you need to up it to 220kW. That shopping list will probably only cost you about $500 - 1000 per kilowatt! :think: :wall:

For me, I'm curious what changes were made to the 117.960 used in the factory entered rally 500SLCs that in their final year of competition (1980) were good for around 255kW (340hp), and in the 500SL that was built for (but never competed in) the 1981 world rally championship was claimed to deliver 275kW (370hp). Considering the cars sold to the public to homologate the 107.026 for competition use were supposedly only good for 177kW, it would be interesting to know what modifications were made that were within the rules to increase the engine output by as much as 55%.
107023 - 350SLC: 1973, 3sp auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold July 2012 after 29 years ownership)
107026 - 500SLC: 1981, 4sp auto, thistle green, green velour
124090 - 300TE: 1990, 4sp auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex
124090 - 300TE: 1992, 4sp auto, malachite (spruce green), black MBtex
201024 - 190E-2.0: 1985, 5sp manual, black, black MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 5sp manual, arctic white, blue leather
201028 - 190E-2.3: 1992, 4sp auto, blueblack, grey MBtex
201028 - 190E-2.3 Sportline: 1990, 4sp auto, signal red, black cloth (parts car)
201034 - 190E-2.3-16 Cosworth: 1985, 5sp manual, blueblack, black leather
YG2S8 - Mini Clubman GT: 1972, 4sp manual, blue, parchment vinyl (my first car which I still own)

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Dr Diesel
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Sun 01 Jan, 2012 6:28 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:Code 822 - ECE-version, 220 kW [in comparison with KAT (178 kW) and RÜF (200 kW)], up to 08/1987:
  • different camshafts - 16/17 designation,
  • different KE- control unit - 004 545 25 32 (in modern parts catalog it is replaced with ECU for KAT/RÜF)
  • EZL control box - 004 545 34 32,
  • EZL correcting trimmer plug - 013 545 78 28 "EZL",
  • different exhaust tri-y manifolds (in comp. with KAT),
  • different pistons (e=10.0:1),
  • different vacuum modulator - black, 126 270 43 79 (in comp. with KAT), 4.0 bar modulating pressure (RÜF - 4.2, KAT - 3.8).
+
  • different fuel distributor (with 822 like on engines after 09/1987, CR 10:1)
    air flow sensor
    washer (part of the air flow sensor)
    KE- trimming plug
Mercedes-Benz. Ihr guter Stern auf allen Straßen.

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Dr Diesel » Thu 10 May, 2012 11:54 pm

Dr Diesel wrote:All 117 and 116 engines has had EZL/AKR and 10:1 comp. ratio after 09/1987. And ignition system correcting tip not need to adjusting.
I'm sorry, I was mistaken a little. :banghead:
:violent1:
AUS- and US-version M116/117 from 1986 has only EZL ignition system.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Sat 22 Feb, 2014 8:06 pm

Reviving and old but very informative thread as getting questions on the various engine outputs for the W126 and good time to dig this up for our newer members to read
Cheers
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by AMG » Sat 22 Feb, 2014 8:22 pm

Or you could teach them to use the SEARCH function in the top right corner .... :whistle:
Current:
1987 560SL 4sp. auto Signalrot "Stella"
1987 190E 2.3-16 5sp. man. Blauschwarz "Hermann"
1992 300CE-24 6sp. man. Perlblau / Iceblau "Gretel"
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Previous:
1986 560SEL Anthracitgrau "Schultz" - In Mercedes Heaven
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by joskami » Mon 25 Dec, 2017 6:03 am

Hi
I have sec 560 my 4/1987 117.968
Can someone tell my engine type, -> Kat ECE RUF
I think that is 178kw
Car vin is WDB1260451A331316
Engine 117968 12 029960
EZL A0045453432

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by joskami » Mon 25 Dec, 2017 6:14 am

....

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Tue 26 Dec, 2017 12:59 pm

I believe your engine is a code 822 300hp /220kw "ECE"
Have a look at the white sticker on the radiator top cross-bracket right side above the headlight - it should state "ECE"
(ECE mean't it met the "Economic Commission for Europe" air pollution emissions standard set at that point in time.
It should have no Catalytic converter underneath (unless one has been fitted later by a previous owner)

Here is a good reference thread
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s- ... -part.html
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by joskami » Wed 27 Dec, 2017 1:38 am

Thanx , i read that topic still I don´t know my engine type...
motor 117968 12 029960
EPc give code 620 19951215 - AIR POLLUTION CONTROL

No code 882

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Wed 27 Dec, 2017 11:46 am

Your EZL indicates code 822 ECE engine (your manufacture date is also correct time for that spec engine)
However who knows what parts in the car have been swapped in the past 30 years of maintenance.

Post up some clear pics of -
The white sticker above your left side headlight on the cross bar
The actual engine # stamped on the rear of your block just behind the left head - looking down from above (clean it first with de-greaser)
It should show - 117968 12 029960 HV
Pic of the engine bay and the right side exhaust headers and also in the false firewall left side there should be an ignition timing trimmer knob (see pic of mine below)
Pic underneath of the exhaust downpipes where they come down underneath and back past the transmission and under the front floorpan
Pic- Is there a an engine oil cooler feeding via oil lines off the oil filter case on the right front of the engine (oil cooler in front of right wheel)
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87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by joskami » Fri 29 Dec, 2017 5:47 am

Thankk you Mr. kimrh
Next weekend I have to look what I can found my car..

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Mercmad » Thu 04 Jan, 2018 6:45 pm

i'm working on a 300PS 560 at the moment and have been going some of my old manuals to see what is what exactly. Strangely, the Idle and 3500 RPM timing specs for all of the Alloy M116-M117 V8's are almost the same regardless of which EZL is fitted. I have a blown EZL and the customer wants his car going so the only option I have is to fit one from a 420 , which means making a loom to connect the KEjet controller into the loom. The 10-1 560's in the Euro version have a lot of differences to the US and Australia versions , in that the EL is designed to prevent knocking from poor fuel and retard the spark when this occurs. The US versions are so low in compression you could run them on kerosene and the resulting Horsepower reflects this. One other thing the Euro 560 has is a transmission overload switch which cuts out when the trans is being overloaded (burnouts etc 0 no US version of Mercedes ever had this which is one reason you should listen to Dr Diesel and not the Americans :laughing6: .Japanese versions are the right hand drive versions of the German cars and the one I ma working on has the 155 MPH cut out built in to the speedo which kills the fuel pump relay at high speed. I doubt the US or OZ versions were ever that fast.

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Sat 06 Jan, 2018 7:24 pm

Yes i pulled one of my spare 300hp 560 engines out of storage this weekend and this one is the ECE 822 version run by the 4 pin EZL with manual timing trimmer as per my 500 ECE white coupe.

To better explain the engine # stamping at the rear of the left head on the block and also the 822 code stamped onto the back of the heads here are some pics-

I cleaned the engine down on Saturday and am going to remove the intake manifold and the heads as doing some secret squirrel mods to bump the power up

Gee what is it with this forum since the upgrade - every time i upload a pic now it always flips it sideways - never used to do that at all but now it is all the time - very annoying guys - the pics size are only small like around 100 to 140kb range
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87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by hents99 » Sat 06 Jan, 2018 8:58 pm

Kim, please check camshaft numbers what you got there.

Btw. Sercret of power:
Image
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Sun 07 Jan, 2018 1:48 am

Hi Hendrik - yes forced induction makes power easily but after coming from a prior life with superchargers i am keen now with the M117 to just stay Naturally aspirated and play with that - haha - sort of gone the full circle and like n/a now and all its challenges.

Pity you hadn't designed a better intake for n/a that still keeps the factory air cleaner and its twin intake snorkels as i like that factory look.
I am going to have a look into the plenum chamber - its capacity is only 2litres and the floor to ceiling only 50mm which is tight!!
Everything is tight in that valley.

Gee the floor of the plenum sits within mm of the valley (upper side of the cylinder walls) and boy it must get hot in there in summer conditions especially in slow moving traffic/stop start conditions - I suppose ok in cold climate countries but not conducive to hot conditions - no wonder those doughnut joiner rings (and the rubber air duct diaphragm to the throttle body go brittle after while with extreme heat cycling and cause vacuum leaks.

Anyway i pulled the intake manifold - that back left long bolt snapped on me as the thread is seized in the head and a small one up front left also snapped on me with a seized thread (will get my engine machine shop to sort that out)
And yes the cams were the later RUF ones 24/25 and not the earlier 16/17 (same cam profile anyway) so the engine must have been built after they switched to the 24/25 cams despite having the ECE code 822 heads.
The cam lobes look like brand new without a single wear mark on any of them as if straight out of the box - so the oil tubes were doing their job.

The engine came out of nice blue SEC that was a private import from the UK but the coupe had seen salted roads and it had far too much rust in the chassis and panels to restore it and it was scrapped - it had only done just over 100k with service records.
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87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by CraigB » Sun 07 Jan, 2018 10:46 am

So Kim are you saying there isn't room to just weld in a spacer or something to increase the plenum..... like with that US rebuild? Did they do something tricky or does your 'within mm' comment account for it? Rather than go back to the thread looking for clues, I am sure this is all clear in your mind. Looked so easy with just that spacer bit in!
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Sun 07 Jan, 2018 2:21 pm

Craig they used a D-jet manifold and went EFI as they thought the centre mount throttle body was a better design and also they liked the intake runner design on that manifold but they did a lot of custom work to get the manifold to fit the M117.
As to the lower plenum chamber on that - they cut 1/2inch (12mm) off the upper intake legs and machined new doughnut sleeves.
Then they cut open the lower plenum and added 1/2inch (12mm) of alloy plate to it to achieve a bit more depth and volume which worked.

I would not go that path and any mods done would be with the existing 560 intake-
By adding that extra 12mm and bringing the roof of the plenum up by 12mm you then have issues with the plastic diaphragm that connects to the throttle body mouth and and other bits like the EGR valve piping and brackets, linkages etc - so not a simple job
You would have to modify that plastic intake to the throttle body by shortening the opening to the throttle body by 12mm and that would mean cutting off the neck and taking 12mm out of the throat and re-joining the neck so it fits over the throttle body properly for a good seal

So it is all one big headache - hence why AMG never came up with any serious mods to the intake of another design

What really needs to happen is that bottom plenum needs to be designed and made of composite material as used on newer V8 engines that does not soak up heat like alloy does. That composite material they used now is like having a heat barrier between the block and the incoming air
Perhaps it is something Thomas could work on with his 3-D scanning skills or our local forum member over east who does this work
It would only be for the lower plenum and not the upper half

I will find some Plado plastic and place it in the bottom of the valley and re-fit the intake to see exactly how much room is in there
87 White Euro 500SEC "ECE" 195kw
88 Black Euro 560SEC 220kw
89 Midnight Blue Euro 560SEL hydro 220kw AMG Kitted
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/sets/72157632548663623/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/krh2013/albums/72157668572599252

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by CraigB » Mon 08 Jan, 2018 12:01 am

Thanks Kim, i think that makes sense now. But presumably if the M117 one doesn't have space and they can put 12mm into the d-jet one, then the M117 must be bigger anyway? I don't have any short term plans but like to keep track of info for future projects and learn from others experiences

Also I think you tried to send me a PM that it won't let me read apart from title. If it is about the photos going sideways, not my area of expertise - something for Joe / AMG
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Mon 08 Jan, 2018 12:45 am

Yes i pm'd you as annoyed all the uploaded pics are being flipped sideways now for some strange reason (they are only around 100-120kb each) and never had this issue before?

Craig by adding the extra depth in the plenum - the floor stayed exactly the same level as before but the roof is higher by 12mm
To compensate they shortened the upper intake legs by 12mm so the measurement from the bottom of the plenum to the upper most point of the top of the upper intake as exactly the same, so it all fits in as per before.
The plenum shape is the same as the engine Valley so even the plenum angle and width follows the shape of the block - so any mods are restricted to making it a tad taller as they did and that is about all.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Sat 13 Jan, 2018 9:45 pm

After cleaning up 2 x 560 upper manifolds & 2 x 560 lower plenum chambers and a spare gen1 lower plenum chamber which i was going to cut open and use it to assist with making a 560 plenum deeper. (the only difference in the plenum's is the throttle body opening is smaller on the Gen1)

How sadly to say there is no way you can modify a 560 intake to make the plenum deeper (by say 10-12mm)
The bottom floor surface of the plenum is only like 2-3mm away from the valley roof in any spot - even up the angled lower sides it is a very close fit.
So there is no room at all for the plenum base to go any lower.

You would not even have room to apply any heat barrier product of any thickness other than having the plenum outer surface ceramic coated to try and cut down some heat transfer from the cylinder walls which make up the valley floor.

So the idea of shortening the intake runner tube legs of either the top of the plenum and/or the upper intake lower runner tubes (where thy join together with the rubber doughnut rings) by say 10mm is not going to fly either.

The angle of the intake runners and in particular the ends where the tube has aprox 5mm machined down to allow the rubber ring to slide on into position - there is just not enough length in the tube end before it curves away.

So If you cut say 10mm off and then had to have the tube end machined to accommodate the rubber ring joiner you would be cutting into the intake runner wall and opening it up (stuffing it up) so there is just not enough length before the tube turns direction to do this mod at all.
Everything was designed compact and tight with no room for cutting and modding at all.

The D-Jet manifold that was modded this way to increase the height of the plenum wall by aprox 10mm obviously has more length in the upper intake runner leg before it angles away to be able to cut 10-12mm mm off the ends and machine the tube ends down 5mm to accommodate the doughnut sealing ring.

So with a 560 intake there is no way you can do to mod it other than getting it cleaned up and doing some light smoothing inside the runners and even there you have to be careful as the walls of the runners could not handle any machining and removal of metal.

The intake (upper & lower) joined together and stripped of all accessories/brackets/ etc so down to bare basics with no throttle body or rubber intake or the air-plate structure) weighs in at 8kg (much heavier than a modern day lightweight composite material intake manifold)
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by CraigB » Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:12 pm

Thanks for all that research Kim. Sounds like we should just get Thomas to 3d print us something! Seriously though, I wonder if the difference in the D-jet manifold was just that it had a smaller plenum in the first place and the later ones are already similar in size. Sounds like a lot of effort was taken to fill every gap and make it the max size possible. I have a djet manifold here i could fill with water and work out the volume - I stripped one right down for postage to someone that wanted one and then he found another before i could send it.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Sun 14 Jan, 2018 11:42 am

I am not sure of the plenum size on the D-Jet but yes i did just that and filled mine with measured water and it was 2ltr's.

One thing i must point out to anyone with a M116 or M117 of any variety as to your own engine performance/fuel economy etc-
After years of driving with the EGR system - the inside of the plenum will be a gunked up "heavily with crap"
I cleaned out 3 x plenums and all were a mess inside - heavy carbon deposits mixed up with gunk to form a thick greasy mess
The intake runners are just as bad and coated in carbon build up but just not such a mess as the plenum.

The EGR system of directing portion exhaust gas fumes back into the plenum during non engine load conditions always results in making a mess of any engine intake system.
Also the way the plenum base & sides is located just 2-3mm from the upper cylinder walls in a confined space it gets damn hot in there.
Those rubber sealing rings joining the plenum to the upper intake and the rubber intake tract to the throttle body become hard over time and result in vacuum leaks from minor to bad.

The combination of all of the above results in an engine not performing to optimum to say the least.
It would be wise of anyone to have their intake removed and re-furbed back to as new condition with new sealing rings and new intake gaskets
Removing an intake is not a hard task for a DIY or a shop.

Head refurb-
The brass valve stem guides are designed to wear so you don't wear out your valve stems, so engines that smoke at idle etc it is not just the valve stem seals that are worn in a lot of cases - but also the guides allowing play in the valve.

The other issue coming to light is new type valve stem seals that seal too well are causing lack of lubrication of the valve stem/guide and flogging out new guides at a rapid rate.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by CraigB » Sun 14 Jan, 2018 2:05 pm

Good point about the gunk. My AMG looked like it had the EGR in place but when you removed it there was a nice turned plug of wood in there. Wondered if AMG discreetly fitted these or if a later addition. Car always ran good anyway!
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Wed 07 Feb, 2018 6:53 pm

Just a small update on the spare M117-968 300hp engine i am playing around with.
My contact in USA has sent me my new valve train kit which completely replaces the MB dual springs with a custom beehive set including titanium retainers and new custom intake valves from Ferrea -being their "super alloy valves" which are also undercut (same as what AMG did with the factory valves).
This will lighten up the valve train inertia significantly but more importantly we are chasing more valve lift. (not possible with the factory springs)
Heads will be worked over as well.

This opens up Pandora's Box with cams to suit (the Dkubus 276 duration hot cams will not suit) so the R&D with some Pro Cam Guru's in the states is on to see what they can come up.
Interesting that in reality it would require a different cam profile for a Gen 2 500 versus a stroked 560 engine.
Longer stroke means the piston lingers at TDC longer than the 500 stroke so all the exact science of both engines data has to be taken into account.

There is concern over the limitations of the 560 plenum chamber design and capacity to flow in the higher rev band in all of this - but also mindful of trying to keep the factory look in the engine bay except for the addition of the Dkubus Franken-CIS tuning kit to control both spark & fuel (doing away with the factory EZL) but this is pretty well hidden away under the engine bay anyway.

The other major items we are looking into also - is going to custom forged conrods and custom forged pistons and my contact is working on that right now.
This will lighten up the valve train significantly, but in my case it will give me a chance to go to 98.5mm pistons (factory 96.5mm) as not keen on going out to 100mm.
AMG went 98.5mm on their 5.4litre engine based off the Gen1 500 engine and they never had any cylinder failure problems with this size bore versus the 560 bored to 100mm = 6litre which resulted in many failed engines over the years from cracked cylinder walls.

Anyway the aim is to stick with a naturally aspirated engine and see what we can come up with - but keeping it all factory look under the hood
Another break-thru he has been working on for some time and design stage has been finalised is roller rockers (cam followers) which have a roller on the cam and on the tip that pushes down on the valve which significantly reduces friction on both the cam lobe and the valve stem tip - but that is another story under wraps for now.

Any constructive input/ideas/thoughts is welcomed
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by CraigB » Wed 07 Feb, 2018 10:46 pm

sounds good - great pioneering stuff that we can all learn from.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by 3doghouse » Fri 04 May, 2018 12:05 pm

kimrh wrote:
Sat 13 Jan, 2018 9:45 pm
After cleaning up 2 x 560 upper manifolds & 2 x 560 lower plenum chambers and a spare gen1 lower plenum chamber which i was going to cut open and use it to assist with making a 560 plenum deeper. (the only difference in the plenum's is the throttle body opening is smaller on the Gen1)

How sadly to say there is no way you can modify a 560 intake to make the plenum deeper (by say 10-12mm)
The bottom floor surface of the plenum is only like 2-3mm away from the valley roof in any spot - even up the angled lower sides it is a very close fit.
So there is no room at all for the plenum base to go any lower.
Hi Kim,

I did exactly what you mentioned... Used play dough and an early efi manifold, but rather than just pushing the whole plenum down, you can (keeping with the dough theme) bend a bread pan out of aluminum and extend the main/center part of the floor for considerably more volume:

Image
Image
Image

Also note the trimmed the mounting flanges (~7mm on each face) to allow use of the newer (CIS style - shorter) doughnuts (more dough for the theme here) without re-cutting the recess/step.

Image

This is installed and running now, and even with stock cams, I was able to (had to) increase the fuel map substantially to keep up with increased airflow. Not dyno tested, but it idles great, did not noticeably hurt low end torque, and seems to have greatly improved mid-upper rpm airflow.

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Sun 06 May, 2018 9:49 am

Great to see some handy DIY skills out to good use and nice work.
Yes you will need some aftermarket spark/fuel system (eg:EFI) to take advantage via custom tuning the mapping.

Talking of bread pan - gave me an idea to use the disposable tin-foil baking tray as a mold to press out the valley shape and see what i can do with a 560 plenum as i want to stick with that intake but try and improve it.
Sourced locally another high comp 560 engine/trans last weekend so i have a good inventory of engine parts to push on and work with
Trying to see if we can come up with an improvement on the 300HP hydro cams (a daunting task to say the least)
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by Mercmad » Sun 06 May, 2018 12:43 pm

Is this the result of dyno work or guess work ? having played around over the years with intake design etc , I have found that Mercedes and Chrysler had the combinations worked out quite well . loos like your helpers are laying down on the job..Image

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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Sun 20 May, 2018 5:12 pm

Engine rebuild progress
I have two M117-968 300hp 10:1 comp engines that i am currently working on
One is having the heads re-conditioned right now at the engine shop and will remain factory spec

The other engine in the foreground that i am about to remove the pistons had some cylinders with scored walls so i have decided to have it bore out and will go 100mm to create a 6 litre engine.
This will require custom forged pistons for alusil blocks and perhaps custom foreged rods (not sure yet on the rods depending on cost)
These engines despite being 30yrs of age are really well built and it is only with alusil blocks the need to keep your engine oil very clean and not contaminated
Lack of standard engine maintenance - re good air and oil filters and clean oil is the secrete to a well running engine that will last for many years - as long as it does not get overheated from lack of maintenance of the cooling system which also needs to be maintained in good order)

I have spent enough time playing with intake manifolds and come to the conclusion there is very little use trying to modify it other than clean it up so it is spotless and a bit of custom work inside the plenum to to tidy it up (dremel work) and making sure it is port matched to the heads.
Main thing i will get done is have the plenum and upper intake ceramic coated for heat barrier from the engine valley

I am amazed at how good the Milwaukee M18 is on an M117 front crank bolt (that holds the large front pulley/harmonic balancer) it rips that bolt off in seconds despite the huge torque setting on that bolt and no need to lock the crank at all.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Sun 20 May, 2018 9:02 pm

Block stripped bare and ready to go to a machine shop who can handle alusil work
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by AMG » Sun 20 May, 2018 10:49 pm

kimrh wrote:
Sun 20 May, 2018 5:12 pm

Main thing i will get done is have the plenum and upper intake ceramic coated for heat barrier from the engine valley
That would be the most sensible 'modification' I have heard in a while.

Do the inside and outside, and the manifold mating faces, which will help to isolate the manifold. Don't forget the coat coolant passage on the front, to keep the heat out of the alloy.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Mon 11 Jun, 2018 12:33 am

Looks like after a lot of research and digging the block is going 6litre (100mm bores) with fully forged pistons and forged conrods to lighten things up a bit.
Custom Cams are getting closer on that as well - these will require larger journals than 50mm as taller lobes so modified cam towers also to suit - very complex work involved with cam design i must say.
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by CraigB » Mon 11 Jun, 2018 9:49 am

Wow - so they are taking your bore and capacity, looking at flow of your head and working out how much lift to get enough air? You already mentioned the beehive springs that will allow more lift, but i guess there is a point when you can't lift anymore? Can they just bore out the existing cam journals? I guess that wouldn't be the hardest part to make out of billet and then line bore. Do they use bearings in there standard or just replace whole journal if worn? I know generally cam bearings don't get the same sort of hit that other say engine bearings do and many cars don't run bearings even in blocks..... like the Morris Minor i am building at the moment for someone..... ok, weird comparison!
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Re: M117.968 output

Post by kimrh » Mon 11 Jun, 2018 10:41 am

Cam design these days is far more complex than peak lift ATDC - Our current engines actually don't actually interfere ATDC if a chain jumps but just after TDC as the piston is about to head down
The secret squirrel stuff is getting the cam profile to follow the piston movement so the valve head is in sinc with the piston head if that makes sense
The factory 560 heads already flow very nicely in just stock form, but adding the custom intake valves and tweaking the exhaust ports, match porting all goers into the mix
This R&D work is in the hands of some very smart people based in the States and naturally all the engine building equations go into the mix - deck height,gasket thickness,quench,head tolerance etc etc and it is all mock tested - as custom engine builders do.

The intake manifold is the only sticking point at this stage and i know the guys at Carobu Engineering in LA are hard at R&D work on the 560 intake to see what they can come up with to tweak the 560 intake with proper flow bench testing and end goal for them is to release it as a service they can offer to the 560 crowd who want it.
All i do know i everything takes time!!!!
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